890. - Zoe Dubno

All right, uh, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian, and they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world, and they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you?

We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place.

All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. [upbeat music] How Long Gone, oh, it's a beautiful Thursday afternoon. The sun is shining here in Manhattan.

Mm.

Jason, I know you have a big announcement to make, so I don't wanna steal your thunder, but if you want me to help, just let me know.

Um, yeah, man, Andrew Huberman has a Goop Kitchen collab.

[laughs]

And this is huge for me. Basically-

That's, that's-

... A and B combine into a C.

[laughs] Kitchen, kitchen. I was, I was going to... Okay, that's huge, and I don't, I don't mean to try to, you know, take any air out of that, but I also-

Will Welch steps down from GQ

... I know that you've been working, you know, behind the scenes, uh, kind of in local politics in Los Angeles for a while, and you have sort of helped, um, reality, reality-

Mm

... star and husband of Heidi Montag, uh, Spencer Pratt, spearhead his campaign to take down evil Karen, Karen Bass.

First Lady elect Heidi Montag.

I just, I d- I just wanted to know, you know, how long you've been plotting th- like, what do you... You know, what, what is... When did you start putting pen to paper?

Look, Spencer and I, Spencer and I have been, uh, in talks prob- what was it? 2022, I guess. So it's been three years now, three, four years.

[laughs]

And, you know, he's got the West Side sort of on lock, and he needed somebody, you know, he needed hokas on the ground on the East Side.

[laughs]

And he doesn't like Altadena flavor. He knows that, you know, I'm just close enough without being too, you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

I don't have a, a hat with a cartoon embroidered on it, um, from my coffee shop or whatever it is.

[laughs] Don't talk about Kumquat like that. Yeah, no, I- [laughs]

[laughs]

Okay.

And he's, and he figured I was the right key for his lock, and then, you know, we've sort of been-

Stick it in, as they say. No, sure.

Stick it in. He's got, he's, he's got the coastal regions on lock. He's got, he likes a little more salt air with his rubble, whereas I like a little bit more kind of eastern flavor.

Mm-hmm.

You know, a lot of the burn areas close to San Gabriel Valley, and he knows, you know, I have a taste for certain-

[laughs]

... you know, the, the ducks and the, and the shrimps-

Sure

... of the world.

Sure, sure, sure. He's-

Uh, it's bathed in Szechuan over there, and then we sort of work our way inwards.

[laughs] Sure.

And then, you know, we've all got our... By the time, you know, the elections are here, we'll b- we'll basically be in Studio City just sort of commanding the entire town.

I see. So y- so you're saying the final resting place of the campaign, you're looking at, you're looking at headquarter rentals in Studio City, 'cause that feels sort of like-

Exactly

... the end of the line.

Yeah, there's, um-

I got you. I got you

... at the mall where there's the Erewhon over there, there's a, a pl- a, a l- like, right next door to the IV drip spot, there's an office space available.

Yeah.

And we're gonna kinda use that as campaign HQ.

[laughs] It's, the, the, the front window d- and when you come by, don't be confused. The crystals will be kind of covering the windows completely.

Mm-hmm.

But once you open the door, you'll sort of see all the, the, the West Wing style action going on behind.

Yeah, yeah. The crystals, they're not in plain view, but you can sense their presence on the property. And then if you do walk up and the front of the, the facade of our office still says the, that it's a Sugo Hand Roll, um, experience.

[laughs] Don't be confused. Don't-

Some of the laser cut stickers have been really tough to get off.

[laughs]

So we are not-

I ordered-

... selling any hand rolls at all.

I ordered Goo Gone on my fucking-

[laughs]

... my, my business Amazon account. It hasn't gotten here yet, but I'm gonna get out there with a razor blade and kinda help you guys out, get that stuff off, like I'm doing community service.

Yeah. My Amazon shipment has been intercepted again by Somalian pirates.

Once again, w- we're delayed. We're delayed. Oh, okay.

[laughs]

Well, I'm glad, I'm glad to hear that. I, I think it's important for you, as I've said for, for many years, for you to kinda get into local politics. I think Spencer-

Mm

... Spencer could be the right conduit for that.

It's so weird that of this was the way... You know, you never, you're n- you're never predicting how-

Yeah

... you get your foot in the door, and I didn't think it was gonna be with Spenny.

No. Look, I, I'm... I've been reading a lot about, um, Chevy Chase.

[laughs]

And I don't care about Chevy Chase at all, really. I'm not gonna watch a documentary about him, but have you s-

I wanna watch the doc

... have you seen the clip where he tells the documentarian that you're not smart enough to do this?

Hell yeah.

That is one of the greatest things I have ever seen.

Of course.

'Cause he is, he is dead ass serious. Like, he is like, "You're, sorry, you could never understand my complex and layered personality."

Mm-hmm.

And the, uh, what do you, I mean-

[laughs]

... where do you go from there? You g- and there's, you're telling me there's an hour and a half more that I need to see? I, I think that 30 seconds covers it all.

Well, I mean, I, I think people like Ben Shapiro and Tucker Carlson have been able to do an hour and a half every day for, you know, a number of years, having that same exact mentality, and it's... The problem is, for people like us, it is entertaining to watch, just as long, uh, you know, Chevy Chase being a dick, you know, in between getting a bagel and taking a nap-

[laughs]

... it's not a big deal, versus, you know, Ben Shapiro or the, the Charlie Kirks of the world who are using that-... that dark energy for potentially, uh, more nefarious actions

Of course. No, no, of course. I, I, I just, I-

Spreading misinformation to the youth of the world

... something about, something about the directness of it and the sort of, um, it just seemed extra pointed. I feel like those guys, those guys would... I, I, I know that that's the attitude and that's the overall vibe and the air.

Mm.

But I feel like [laughs] just dead pan direct.

[laughs]

You're too dumb to talk to me. That's something we don't see very often in entertainment.

Well, we, we don't and, and sometimes I'll... I've talked about it before, when I, I, like, one of the reasons why I like watching, like, older, whatever, Victorian-y, G- Gilded Age type shows is how direct people spoke to each other with no cliche, no, you know, no sugarcoating. And watching Chevy Chase say that is sort of the same equivalent to Gen Alpha people who typical- you know, instead of s- flat out saying to someone's face, you know, like, "You are not smart enough to understand and comprehend what I just told you, so-

[laughs] It's-

... I don't know what to tell you. You're a fucking idiot."

It's so good.

But nowadays people will say that same phrase and same sentiment, but with the kid gloves on by saying, "User error."

Yeah. No, sure, of course. We've, we've-

It has the same sentiment, but it has none of the venom.

God, it really, it set me off. And the other thing that I've been reading a lot about today is, um, friend of the show, Stuff by Hilary Duff-

[laughs]

... um, has a new... She's, she's, I think she's wrapped up in this toxic mom group chat with Ashley Tisdale and Mandy Moore that's a little too-

Mm

... that's a little too, like, Jenny Cain coded even for me. Um, but the-

I'm so glad I don't know who Jenny Cain is

... Hilary Duff is releasing a, a, she's back in the music game, and some of the lyrics dropped today. She was lip syncing on a, on a, a post on Instagram, and the lyrics are, um, "I want the part where you say goddamn. Back of a dive bar giving you head, then sneak home like wake, wake, wake up your roommates. I'm touching myself by the front door, but you don't even look my way no more." And I just, I, I-

Mm-hmm

... look, Hilary, shout out to you for the bravery. I mean-

[laughs]

... I, I think it's, I think it's important for women and, and their pleasure to be front and center in our male dominated patriarchy.

Mm-hmm.

But I was, I don't know about you, but I was personally a little surprised to hear this from Hilary, but maybe it's, it's a sign of maturity. She's not the same old Hilary. She's something new.

It's funny that it's, it's a, a new sense of maturity, but the lyrical content is not about being, you know, a 40-year-old mom. It seems to be about... It, it's taking the energy of, like, a college student. Do you think she real- Does her husband have roommates? Is that... I mean-

Uh, I believe-

... what's going on?

I believe this is probably about a past relationship. Her husband is a music producer. I'm not familiar with any, any of his work.

I'm just, I'm just saying it, it feels, you know, it feels weird, it, like, be- it being autofiction, I guess.

I mean, [laughs] I mean, I think all, all-

[laughs]

Sure, yeah. It is, yeah.

What is, what is a song if not autofiction? But, uh, but, you know, when, you know, a Slater or a, uh, who else, a Tate McRae or, you know, any of these younger pop stars who are, you know, quote unquote "living that life" and, and talking about what they're doing, it's believable. I don't believe that Hilary Duff is-

Oh, I believe that Hilary Duff di-

... you know, sucking dick

... I believe that Hilary Duff sucked dick at Saddle Ranch in 2003.

Yeah, of course.

I, I-

Of course. Of course

... I, I, I think that, I think we have to allow our artists to kind of call on their life experience no matter what the, the kind of-

Maybe it's just a tense issue, you know?

There's no, there's no... I'm saying there's no expiration date on giving head at Saddle Ranch, as far as mining it, [laughs] mining it for-

Glad we got clean audio of that.

[laughs]

I made sure to not step on that one.

I mean, as, as, uh, I, I, I'm, I'm talking a- a- as f- a- as far as mining for content, you know, you know what I mean? I think that's a, I think-

And I guess another way to look at it is is she trying to sing and create content for herself or for the young, you know, is she trying to, you know, is her daughter like, "Make a song that's like Addison Rae," or what, you know? Like, is she trying to appeal to teenagers, college age-

Oh, I think, I think-

... listeners?

... both.

Or is that foolish because her core demographic is 40-year-olds?

I, I think her core demographic, much like her, would love to relive their 20s because their daily life is so bland.

Mm-hmm.

And-

Mm-hmm

... als- I don't know if it's gonna, I don't know if this is gonna touch the Addison-

Yeah, we don't want her to sing about diaper changing and shit

... Yeah, that, that's, yeah. Like, going, yeah, [laughs] literally, like, her talking about Range Rover parallel parking in Studio City is not gonna light up the airwaves over at Z100.

Mm-hmm.

So she's doing what she can, you know what I mean? She's doing what she can. But I, I respect, I respect the attempt. I've not heard the song. Some online are saying it's a banger. I, I will, I will be the judge of that, of course.

I think it is interesting that her little mom, mom group drama scandal came out the same week as her dropping new he- certified heat. Do you think that is-

Well-

... a coincidence timing-wise, or...?

Okay. [laughs] All right, Hits Daily Double. I think it's more-

The powers that be, is this Ari Emanuel's hand in here?

I think that, I think all of the, obviously all of the blood-sucking power agents are involved in this somehow, but I th- I think the, the-

So Tisdale, uh, is merely a martyr for this tryst.

Well, Tisdale, Tisdale, Tisdale writing a personal essay for The Cut is a crime that should be punished by law, no matter what the subject is.

Mm-hmm.

But kind of throwing her celebrity mom-

Our guest may have done that. Let's, we'll, we'll-

That's, that's true. [laughs] We'll, we'll wait. We'll wait and ask her. But the, but the, the throwing other celebrity moms who are just trying to raise their kids with three nannies a- and a Rivian-

The drop-off line is hard enough, right?

Yeah, like, I don't know what you... Yeah, like, look, I, I don't know what the problem is over at Crossroads, but you guys gotta get it together. Everybody, you're... There's a level of, of celebrity where you're supposed to keep that stuff among yourselves.

Mm-hmm.

Even at the Ashley Tisdale level, there's a sort of understood, like, we, we're in this, most people aren't, let's keep it to ourselves. Ashley Tisdale-... broke the seal for $300 on The Cut.

Mm-hmm.

And I, I, like, I'm sure, I'm sure it did. I'm sure it's doing numbers, you know what I mean? I'm sure it's doing quite well, but what is f- at what cost, J- Them Jeans Voice?

Well, at what cost-

At what cost

... and then, you know, if you're, I, I would say it's a tall order trying to convince the rest of the world that Mandy Moore could do wrong. You know what I mean?

No, Mandy Moore is a statuesque beauty that we love and respect, and have always loved-

Mm-hmm

... and respected even though she couldn't make it work with, uh, Ryan Adams. But that's a whole nother, you know, I don't have time-

Mm-hmm

... to get into that. Um-

I'm not buying it

... I argue [laughs] yeah. If-

Like a jar of truffle oil, I'm not buying it.

It's definitely not her, it's him. Um, all right, we have a guest today. Uh, Zoe Deboer is a writer. Um, her book Happiness & Love: A Novel is out everywhere now, wherever you get books. I'm seeing two covers online. I'm assuming there's a UK version and a US version. But the best part about this is Zoe, so accomplished, went to college in Newark, Jason. So I, I just want you to-

For real? For real, trade college? What's up?

There's st- yeah, she's a mechanic as well.

[laughs]

But there's stuff to do in Newark besides get on an airplane, and I just wanted to kinda point that out-

Oh my God, this is exciting

... before-

All right

... before we get started.

Let, let's give her a Zoom.

[laughs]

Not, wait, hold, hold on.

Not yet, not yet, not yet.

Hold on. Hold on. Okay, let's give Zoe a call. [beep]

This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian, Stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's a, it's trying to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions.

A lot of questions, but how often? 'Cause we do this podcast three times a week, and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do?

Three times a week, and I, I, I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe gonna be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess.

The Guardian is not some billionaire-owned platform. They're not afraid to say what they wanna say, brother.

Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in, in what, uh, journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at, at, uh, Stateside.

Mm-hmm.

But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch on YouTube. It's three times a week, and, and who couldn't use more news? You know, especially, especially when it's, when it's not, you know, from here, let's say.

[laughs]

Give, give it a, give it a listen. Give it a listen. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by our best friends at BetterHelp. Jason, we're, we're deep into May, which is, uh, Mental Health Awareness Month, and this is just a reminder that whatever you're going through, you don't have to go through it alone. Life is a damn journey. Some days feel good and others feel overwhelming. Whatever's keeping you up at night, it's easy to feel like you have to figure it all out on your own. But the truth is, no one has all the answers. Well, and no journey should be alone. Having someone with you to listen, to understand, and to support you can really make all the difference.

I agree, Chris, and sometimes, you know, it, it's nice to be talking to somebody even if they're not even listening, even if you don't even get to be in the same room with them because what you're doing is you're admitting these things to yourself and that's the most, that's the most rewarding thing you can do sometimes. So you can have a great little therapy sesh with your perfect therapist at BetterHelp. Choosing between over 30,000 people so you can get the right one just for you. Over six million people globally are using it and, you know, have some breakthroughs, go on that walk after your BetterHelp sesh. You know, whatever it might be. Get a nice little lunch all for yourself, maybe a non-alcoholic kombucha, and just think and be like, "Damn, I really am him." You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have somebody with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/howlong. That is better H-E-L-P .com/howlong. [beep]

Are you wearing a nose strip, like an air breather? Am we, are we not supposed to talk about the visuals?

You can talk about it. I don't care. I don't care. I mean, it's, it's a audio only podcast.

Okay, I love that. I've never seen someone wearing that in, like, you know-

On Zoom?

... around except for, like, an old man that I know.

[laughs]

Well, I, I like, I like around.

As far as, as of one minute ago, Jason's an old man you know, so it's not really that, you know, it's in the same zone.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I'm talking about a 90-year-old. Um, no, but I-

Thank you so much

... I, I'm sorry, I didn't go to college in Newark. I went to Oberlin, which is in Ohio.

Ooh.

But I went to, I did my fiction MFA in Newark, but what I will say is it was mostly on Zoom 'cause it was COVID. [laughs]

Okay, so you're saying-

So I really didn't have to go to Newark that often.

Mm. Boy, gosh.

Okay, so, so I, I, I know that Rutgers is a, is a popular learning institution. I-

Yeah

... I assume it's, it's m- a commuter school for someone in your position-

Yes

... n- no matter what. No one's living in Newark.

Yes. But you know what?

Okay.

Newark is nice, kind of. There are nice elements of Newark.

Of course, I'm sure. I, I mean, New Jersey gets a bad rap overall I would say.

Well, I, I had probably never been to New Jersey, like, as an active choice besides to go through it until I did my MFA at, at Rutgers, and a lot of the other people were New Jersey-ish people and they kept getting mad at me 'cause I kept being like, "Wait, New Jersey's actually kind of nice." Like, o-

[laughs]

I kept being like-

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

... "Wait, guys," and they were like, "Yo, we live here." [laughs] But I was, I was shocked.

I think as you get a little bit older, as you get a little bit older and your priorities in life change, I think, you know-

Well, my dad is, yeah

... New Jersey's bosom becomes more-

How did you get there?

... you know, more enticing.

My, my parents are from New- my dad is from New York, and, like, New Jersey was always, like, a, an episo- like a, like a negative just, "Oh, it's so New Jersey."

Mm-hmm.

It was the butt-

Like-

... the butt of a joke forever

... yeah, it's the worst thing that you could be was New Jersey. So then to see that it was actually just, like, normal suburbs, houses. Like, you know, I don't like Westchester that much, but it's just the same. I di- I thought that there was, you know-

Of course

... something-

Yeah

... extra bad.

I mean, I think if I... Look, I think that t- would you rather, this is a, a fun question, would you rather live in New Jersey or Brooklyn?

Brooklyn, duh.

But see, why? Why? What, what carries a worse stigma to you?

Is that a duh, Zoe?

Two things. I got my driver's license two weeks ago.

Congratulations. Welcome to adulthood.

[laughs] Thank you. [laughs]

[laughs]

Damn, you're so NYC with it. That's crazy.

I'm 30.It was that I'm 30, and then I was like, well yeah, that is, I did need a license. Until my boyfriend was basically like, "I don't like being the only adult." Like, it's fine that I'll drive, but like let's say we're somewhere, like we, we went on a long drive somewhere in France, and he was like, "Let's say I broke my leg." Like, let's say that. [laughs] Then I would have to drive with a broken leg.

Yeah, that's what a man, that's what a fucking man does. I guess, I guess your boyfriend-

Is that, is that true?

... doesn't listen to fucking Joe Rogan. I don't want a chick driving.

No, he doesn't.

I would just call Uber.

Call Uber. I don't think they have Uber in like Provence, like the deep, uh-

Mm

... or maybe they do. They probably do.

In deep Provence.

It's like getting a haircut. If I show up and I see a chick, I say I'm gonna wait for the next guy. I'm not getting my hair cut by a chick, and I'm not-

Really?

Tell your man to stop traveling to places with roads, man. I'd just go to like islands-

No, well that's what he said

... where it's like golf carts.

That's what he said. He was like, "We're never going anywhere with roads again unless you learn how to drive."

[laughs]

[laughs]

And so then I was just like, "Okay, fine." Because I, I like to do it.

That's very cool.

And then I make demands, being like, we, like 'cause we were in Marseille, and I was like, "We have to rent a car. We have to do..." And he's like, "Ugh, fine."

Mm-hmm.

But I get it. 'Cause now that I know how to drive-

AKA you have to rent a car

... now that I know how to drive, I'm like, like I drove on the highway for the first time, and I was like, this is so scary that I'm in charge and I could kill people, including my friends and family-

Yeah

... and, and every- So now I'm like, I, I'm glad that I know how to drive.

But do you know how to drive, Zoe? I know you-

No

... technically have your, [laughs] okay.

No, no.

I know you have your-

Are you kidding?

I know you have a document that says you're legally allowed to.

Are you kidding?

But you're not exuding confidence behind the wheel. Okay, what kind of car do you have, Zoe? Sorry.

I don't have a car. I have a Zipcar membership-

Okay

... which is really nice.

Throw Z's up.

I, my, I do, my brother said that he will put me on the, my brother and I live in the same building, and he said he'll put me on the insurance of his Audi. But I'm like, "Actually, don't," [laughs] because I'm gonna crash it. Like I really don't wanna crash it. And I, that's why the Zipcar, it's like I got the maximum coverage.

Okay.

Mm.

Like it's like if I crash it, they probably pay me or something.

What is, yeah, sure. [laughs] Yeah, you're coming out on top.

Yeah, [laughs] or, or whatever.

What is the, what is the, you know, I used to drive a Zipcar, you know, when I first moved to York, and I would always get in them, and it would clearly have been used for a drug deal or sexual intercourse-

Oh, yeah

... just minutes before.

Mm-hmm, yep.

So is-

Yes

... okay, that's still the case?

It smells bad in there. It smells bad.

Right.

But I'm not using it-

You gotta go to Ikea, though

... that often. Like I-

Right

... I went to the Korean spa.

Are you getting the nicer car-

You know?

... at least, or are you getting the Honda Civic with backwoods on the floor?

They're all the same.

Oh, okay.

No, I, okay, so I had driving lessons from a beautiful man named Walid, and he had the driving thingy car was, um, I believe a Prius or some-

Mm

... kind of Toyota, that shaped thing.

[laughs]

So I now will only rock the Toyota, you know, whatever you call that shape of car.

Okay. You like, you like a small, mid-size-

Regular

... little vehicle.

Regular, yeah, regular. Because so my dad-

It's, it's not a Mini Cooper, but it's not a 7 Series

... my dad is crazy.

It's like a car, a car that somebody who went to Oberlin would drive probably.

Yeah. 'Cause especially if you're rich and you're trying to hide it. If you're rich and trying to hide it.

No, that's called a Subaru. That's what makes a Subaru a Subaru, is that someone from Oberlin-

Like a, a Prius is, and a Subaru, they swim in similar circles.

But they don't have ice-

Yeah

... it doesn't have ice handling, does it?

[laughs]

'Cause the Su- it gets so icy. It gets so icy to, I listened to your episode yesterday or whatever with that very nice guy that lives in Ohio. And, and I was thinking, I lived in Ohio in a liberal arts college town. And-

So that episode hit different for you, queen.

[laughs]

Well, yeah. Well, I was really thinking-

For real, for real

... imagine some like hipster man got rid of all his clothes while I was at Oberlin. We would've gone crazy. But he actually-

Jackpot

... didn't even need that 'cause that's what all the thrift stores there are anyway. Like they're just full of like-

But, but see, the difference is Aaron lives in Ohio and drives a 911 with snow tires on it.

[laughs]

Oh my God.

Zoe, you're a married woman. You need to stop, just chill, chill down over there, okay?

Yeah, you're getting a little too excited about Aaron.

First of all, I'm not married. I have a fiance. But also-

Oh

... that's crazy.

To live in Ohio?

To drive that round in Ohio.

[laughs]

Yeah. What?

Did you say drive that round?

That's a nice little-

Drive that round

... look he always has.

Did I say that?

I don't think that, but I, I assumed Oberlin-

I didn't know if that was an Ohio thing than to say

... I feel like Oberlin has plenty of Subarus, but I also feel like there's a lot of like, oh, this is my parents' old-

Yes

... Land Rover Discovery. That, that's more-

No, no. There's none of that. Oh my God, you'd get literally stoned to death. You'd get stoned to death if you had a Land Rover, even an old one.

So you have to pretend that you're, you have to pretend that you're middle class no matter what?

Uh, yeah. Oh my God.

[laughs]

Like, but be- there was a guy who his dad was on the board of the college, and he would wear this like really crusty hat and had this like patchy beard, and would always be s- like smoking rollies-

Mm

... outside of the library, and like bumming, like bumming like filters off of people.

[laughs]

And like, oh, like I'm a lit, like picking-

He's picking out cigarette butts from the trash can

... oh my God. And I'm like, your dad is the chair of the board of our college, okay?

Okay.

Like, like-

But Zoe, Zoe, answer me this. Was he hot though?

No.

Okay.

No.

Oh, shit, okay.

What is the classic, give us a breakdown of classic, what is a classic Oberlin hot guy? Like what are the kind of virtues?

Any, anyone who is over 5'8" is immediately-

Okay. [laughs]

... a 10. Well, first of all, I'm 5'9", maybe even 5'10", so like that, i- seriously, if I'm gonna say above 5'8", like that's what you have to understand.

Af- okay, you're 5'10" after a Sky Ting sesh, but 5'8"-

That's right

... damn, that's, that's a low bar.

That's right. That's a, it's a low bar.

So you're saying all these, all these little, all these little nerds that wanna write books and, you know, vote for Bernie are short.

[laughs]

Oh, a lot of the time. Then, but no, there were a couple of tall kings. And the way that they, you know, behaved, like it, it's like, oh, you could really slaughter. And also, at that college, like it was full of hot chicks. Like, and I don't say this, 'cause it's like so annoying when girls are always like, "Oh my God, all my friends are beautiful and there's no like hot guys in the worl- " like, no, a- actually.

Mm-hmm.

My, my best friend who's a guy, it was like obscene what he was getting up to. Because, and never again in his life has he been able to like top the kind of doggery that he was doing there.

[laughs]

[laughs]

Like [laughs] we've been friends since we were two years old. I've seen his whole life. Like-

You said the dog, the d- the sheer doggery?

The doggery.

[laughs]

Yeah, the doggery. [laughs]

Is Oberlin, is the Oberlin mascot a squirrel?

No.K- well, kind of. The Oberlin mascot is ... Why are we talking about Oberlin so much? The Oberlin mascot is a yeoman. A yeoman, which is a farmer that works the land. [laughs] And I believe also, I think he's a land-owning farmer to separate himself from perhaps the, you know, the peasantry, the serfs.

Oh, yeah.

I believe a yeoman is a, you know, man who owns his own things.

So he, he does have slaves.

And then they would call the girl ... Does he? No, no.

[laughs]

'Cause Oberlin is a very abolitionist place.

Okay.

Oh, you don't say.

We were the first college-

Oh, you don't say.

No, but it was. It, it was a thing on the Underground Railroad. There was like a place. Like, you could, you can see it.

Oh, okay.

And they were the first college to let in Black people.

[laughs]

Like, the first integrated college.

Well, there's ... Well, yeah, but there's not anymore now.

No, there are.

So.

There are. I mean, there's just-

Oh

... there's fewer than there are white people. There's a shit ton of white people.

[laughs]

But, it, it's not [laughs] ...

When, when you showed up to Oberlin, how far into the pitch did they tell you that they were the first people to accept Black people?

Before.

Before. No, that's before she signed up.

Before.

That's on the website. That's the, that's the-

Before

... it's a scrolling bar on the website.

Okay, okay. Well, I d- I just Googled Oberlin mascot and currently, as of 2019, right before COVID, really interesting, their mascot is an albino squirrel named Yobie.

No, so ... Okay, so, so that's always been the unofficial mascot.

Mm.

Mm.

The unofficial mascot was always the albino squirrel, 'cause there was these like white squirrels all around Oberlin, and it's like a thing. And there's a nasty drink-

Of all the, of all the colors of the squirrels, wouldn't you know?

I tell you what, these white squirrels sound like-

They're cute

... these guys that are under 5'8".

Yeah. [laughs]

You're saying these are different.

Yeah. [laughs]

Okay. I, I, I got it. I got it. I got it.

So when you and your friends get a little too tipsy off the Fireball shots, you say, "We're gonna go squirrel hunting today."

[laughs]

[laughs]

Oh my God.

Pew pew.

Like, to eat a squirrel? To eat one?

No.

No.

To go try to fuck some short guys.

Oh.

To find some shorties.

Oh.

Hello.

Oh, I get it. I get it. I get it. I get it. [laughs]

And you don't have to say that they're albino, because we all know.

So what are the, what are the ... But what are the look- ... All right. So these guys are short, but are they swaggy at least? Is there a level of je ne sais quoi?

Yeah. Every ... So everyone is in a, like, noise band.

[laughs]

Or some kind of like punk adjacent, like, Midwest emo, even though they're from Brooklyn, band.

Yeah.

And like they've got the big fat carabiner of like 37 keys to nothing, and like the Carhartt pant ... Because y- if you wanted to, like, purchase workwear items, you had two options. There were new workwear items at extremely good stores at extremely good prices, or all of the thrift stores are full of like legit, like-

Yeah

... you know, people stuff. And so everyone was looking amazing.

Okay.

Like, everyone was like looki- ... Like it was an amazing ... And the girls, everyone was dressed. It was like a, you know, ad for I don't know what. Like, Kim Gordon or something.

Okay.

Yeah, Kim, Kim Gordon advertising, of course.

[laughs]

Famously loves to promote herself.

Yeah. It's [laughs] you could advertise at Oberlin.

[laughs]

Kim, deal. She, she's from Ohio.

Okay. [laughs]

Okay, whatever. Anyway, boring.

Wow, that's a g-

[laughs]

... that's a great point, actually.

She can play a bass.

I didn't know you had ... All right. So but, but you, you left Ohio as soon as you could still, I assume. You didn't like it that much.

Yeah, duh.

Okay. Well, look, I don't know. Ohio to Newark.

You can't live there. First of all, I didn't even know how to drive. I'm in the middle of nowhere Ohio not knowing how to drive, relying on, like, my friends from LA to drive me to, like, the wine store. Like, you had to know how to drive, and I just still refused 'cause I was too scared.

Okay.

That's, that's the perfect place to learn, to be fair, but I understand-

Yeah

... you had other priorities.

You sound like every boyfriend that I had in college.

Yeah, 'cause guys are smart.

"I'm gonna teach you how to drive."

No, I didn't say I was gonna teach you.

Ooh.

That's very different. That's, I-

I know now

... you, I wanted to shift gears a little bit. You've, you've said being from New York is a mental illness.

Yeah. I guess it's just not really a healthy way of, um, existing, but it's the only way that you, like, can exist [laughs] if you're f- I think, from New York. I don't know when I said ... Is that in my book? I think I said that probably-

Yeah

... in the book. But I'm, I don't know. I'm thinking of, like, one of my friends, his mom is like an 80-year-old lady who's from the West Village, and during COVID he tried to get her to, like, come to his house in Vermont, and she drove. Like, an 80-year-old woman, she drove from the West Village to Vermont. And then after maybe like [laughs] I think 24 hours was like, "Gotta get back." [laughs] Like, "Everything's closed."

[laughs]

Of course.

Like, "Gotta get back." Like, like [laughs] and that is kind of how I am. Like, if I'm in nature and stuff for a little bit too long, I'm like, "Mm, but what if I need to, like, go in Duane Reade for no reason?" [laughs]

I know. I mean, I-

You need to have proximity to medical supplies and, and pharmaceuticals and things like that at all times.

Or just like whatever. Like nail clipper, you know?

Anything.

Sure.

I mean, I was, I was reading somewhere it was complaining about the DoorDash tha- ho- like, the, the whole point of New York is that you can go get whatever you want all the time, and we've started to now-

Yeah

... just stay inside of our tiny houses and have guys bring us a coffee. It's like it's, it's actually insane. That's the whole point of living-

It's sad

... that's what you're paying for is the convenience.

I know. And then stuff closes. And then because of these DoorDash idiots, like, I used to have three Duane Reades within a five block radius of me, and that's beautiful. Like, that's a beautiful thing. And now I only have one.

We've covered, we've, we've covered the great pharmacy shutdown, and it is, it is shocking, honestly. My favorite though is I saw the CVS by Duane Reade. Have you seen that sign? 'Cause like these [laughs] it's like they bought-

Is a, is that a collab?

Wait, what?

Or D- or Duane Reade by C-

Walgreens. Walgreens

... Walgreens. That, I'm sorry, it's Walgreens by Duane Reade-

Sorry. [laughs]

... is the s- is the sign. And I was like, wow, that is r- extremely confusing stuff up there.

Can I tell you something sad, which is that when I lived in Ridgewood, um-

That is sad. I'm sorry for your loss.

Yeah, I know.

[laughs]

The, the, uh, that's where I moved after I finished Oberlin. The, um, Walgreens was actually a Walgreens, not a Duane Reade. Like, because we were so far outside of the city that it was, like, not Duane Reade branded. And I was like, "I gotta move."

[laughs]

Like, my mom came to visit me and she was like, "Why do you live where, like, Archie Bunker lives? This is fucked up." [laughs]

[laughs] You're out here in Ridgewood next to Archie Bunker, bitch. We paid too much for this col-

Yeah.

Get int- get a job.

That's right. [laughs] She was like, she was like, "It's kinda cute." [laughs]

Well-

Why? Why

... Walgreens is having the last laugh on you Manhattanite losers. Duane Reade's days are numbered, guysBecause you guys have too many criminals

But he wins

Well, yeah, those places, you can't go in those places 'cause it's n- there's nothing for sale. That, that's, like, the whole-

Yeah

... I mean, that's really the issue.

I know.

That's why I have to have my nail clippers dropped to me from a drone onto my rooftop, and I go up there-

[laughs]

[laughs]

... while I'm... I go up there while I'm tanning.

Is that for real?

No, no, no. That was, that was also from your book, where you said people who can't afford to go travel during the summertime to The Hamptons or whatever-

Oh, yeah

... they try to convince other people that tanning on the rooftop is chic.

That's true.

Disgusting.

If they're hot, it is chic, yeah.

No, but I was just wondering if in LA you guys really have drones.

Yeah, drone, drone delivery is a real thing, yeah. In, not in all parts of the country, but on Amazon, in certain areas, you can order something, and a drone goes to your backyard and drops a package of whatever it is, and that's, and that's it.

The flying drone, the flying drone.

Flying drone, yes.

Oh, wow, I didn't... Jason, I didn't even know that.

Really?

No, I've only seen... I mean, I've seen the little, like, robot delivery things, but I've never seen-

No, neither-

... I've never seen the-

Yeah, it's, it's not really in places where you guys hang out. It's more, more rural locations where they have bigger landing areas, you know?

It's like Uber Chopper.

It needs more acreage.

You can find it-

Yeah

... if you want it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly.

Wow.

But people are doing it as, like, a party game. I guess that's how dark our existence is, where, like, you'll order, you know, order some beers or whatever and have the drone drop it in your backyard, and then it's like that's the activity of your, of your hang sesh.

I gotta say, that's pretty sick. I mean-

Alternatively, it is pretty sick

... if you need a six-pack and the local gas station's a 20-minute drive away, and for 30 minutes I get a drone delivery? I mean, that's pretty good.

I can't drive. I'm drunk.

Yeah, exactly. I'm-

Gotta get the drone

... I'm drunk as hell.

What's that thing called where, um, they come, and in LA the, like, it's, like, a little robot man?

What is it, what is it called? I don't know what the company is called, actually.

I think it's, I think it's Same O.

Oh, Sa-

Let me see here

... wait, but isn't Waymo the car? Is it the same company?

It may be the same. I don't know. The com-

Is it?

Yeah, it's called Same O. It's the, it's the automon- autonomous food delivery robot from Serve Robotics. That's a Serve, honey.

Ew.

That's a Serve. I've never u- I've never used that. I- that's too far for me.

No, I, I see it every d- like, I went to, I had drinks and dinner two nights ago at Stir Crazy on Melrose, and there's just constant Same O-

Yeah

... activity going-

Yes

... back and forth, and I always wonder, "Who is, like, put my pho and egg roll delivery in this plastic box, drive it down through a maze full of human feces, and then hope that somebody doesn't steal it?" And then you go downstairs, and your food's in there. It just feels so-

"Hey, bro, I need my Van Leeuwen stat, and I gotta get..." [laughs]

If I, if I was, uh, down on my luck and unhoused, I would be robbing those little Same O's every single day.

Can you bust them down that easy?

I don't think it's that easy.

[laughs]

But when there's a will, there's a way. I'm, I'm smoking that Tina. I got a screwdriver. I'm getting in that bitch.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[laughs]

[laughs]

It's funny that you saw it at Stir Crazy 'cause the only person I know who's told me that they've gotten it is my friend Rebecca, who has, owns the bookstore next to Stir Crazy and is, and is married with the Stir Crazy guy. And she told me that she would get, like, little, little treats on that.

[laughs]

Or maybe it was her, her friend that works there also. But yeah.

I don't know why we're so offended.

It makes sense over there.

I don't know why we're so offended by it because I feel like it's, it's like anything else. You, you, you make fun of it until you do it, and you're like, "Well, this is pretty good." I mean, you know.

I'm not offended by it. I just really hope that it leads, which it obviously won't, to, like, everybody just getting paid to do nothing. But-

Oh, you're looking-

Like, like, you know-

Okay, so you're, yeah

... it gets rid of the job, but it's fine because that person just gets paid.

We're a- we're all being replaced.

Yeah.

Yeah, we're all being replaced by robots, but by the time that happens, we'll just figure out a universal basic income, and everything's gonna be-

Yeah

... okay, right, guys? [laughs]

There's that book, Full Luxury Automated Communism.

[laughs]

Hell yeah. [laughs] That's, that's what I believe in.

Um, I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with this concept.

[laughs]

I, I know I live in Zoran's New York, but he's busy fixing potholes, so I think he's kind of-

Yeah

... not focused on-

For listeners at home, when she said, "Hell yeah," she also did some kind of, like, rock and roll, like, devil horns-

The classic horns

... with her hands. The classic horns.

Is that the Shaka?

Shaka is this.

No, no, I did, I did this.

You did horns.

Okay, okay.

I did the rock and roll.

You did the rock and roll.

[laughs]

You did, like, I'm a badass rocker, kind of.

[laughs]

This is the Shaka.

Oh my God, I hate the Shaka.

This is the Shaka.

The Shaka scares me.

And then this, this, this means I love you in sign language, okay?

Oh, wait. And another Oberlin thing, um, there was, like, a, there was, like, a, a llama, and you'd make this with your hands to say that you were in agreement at the food co-op. [laughs]

Oh my God.

What the fuck did you just say to us?

Bro. Y'all are fucked up. Bro, go to NYU like an adult. What the fuck are you doing out there?

God.

No. Ew. NYU.

Llama? Llama?

Good God. I, I-

Yes

... my nieces learn sign language at school, and I was like, "Why the fuck aren't you learning a real language? What the fuck? What good is this gonna do? How many-

[laughs]

... how many fucking deaf people do you know? Like, learn Spanish."

There's tons of deaf people.

Yeah, but you know what I'm saying. There's better ways to spend time-

[laughs]

... if you're gonna learn a language. Sign language-

I disagree because-

So you're saying work big to small is what you're saying.

Yeah, I was just like, "That's cute."

I disagree.

What do you... How could you disagree?

Knowing some sign language is amazing. No, because my aunt is a deaf educator and, like, hard of hearing, and she teaches sign language in, like, the public schools-

Okay, all right

... not to, to-

Here we go.

Well, good for her

... she helps the deaf people.

[laughs] Must be nice.

No, but what I'm saying is, what I'm saying is it's actually amazing because when you hang out with deaf people and they're all just signing, like they're-

Yeah

... all just signing with each other-

It's like when I get my-

... and you don't know what they're saying

... it's like when I get my nails done and I can't understand what they're saying about me.

That's right.

It's the sa- it's the same shit.

That's right.

I'm not saying-

I think the deaf are amazing

Which is why it's more and more important and beneficial for Chris to learn Vietnamese or Chinese instead of-

I'm studying, I'm studying Vietnamese right now actually-

[laughs]

... because I know they're talking shit about my big old dogs over-

The only things that he can say right now-

Yeah

... is white devil and, you know-

[laughs]

... the other... [laughs]

They just kept saying it over and over, so I finally looked it up and [laughs] realized it was white devil.

I learned how to say honky in Vietnamese today, wouldn't you know?

[laughs] Uh, yeah, I just... [laughs]

Uh, okay, so-

Gorgeous man. [laughs]

I wanna... Gorgeous man? I wanna transition into-To food. We, we talk about food on this pod a lot, and there's, there's some food subjects in your book, so I feel like you're a little at least food adjacent. You, you said receiving someone's salad dressing recipe is a signifier that you've had sex with the, the dressing maker. Has this been ripped from the headlines of your own life? Have you ever been shagging a salad artist and-

Wow

... he or she or they-

[laughs]

... bestowed you their vinaigrette ratios?

Did you have sex, did you have sex with Paul Newman before he died? That's crazy.

Oh, my God. I, I, I wish.

[laughs]

Even at, like, 90. Like, oh, yeah.

You would tap that 90-year-old. Yeah, I mean, who wouldn't?

Are you kidding?

Who wouldn't? Get over here. Bring a vinaigrette and hurry.

Yeah. That's ... Ew. The, actually I wouldn't, because those, for, for the reason of the salad dressing, 'cause I don't want that. Like, the bottle salad dressing is so nasty.

What are you... Stop being a snob.

So gross.

What's wrong with a bo- what-

Look, it's Paul.

It's, like, emulsifi- like, it's, like, emulsified. Um, to be honest with you, I plead the fifth on that, because suddenly I have a memory involving the salad dressing that somebody once told me that. [laughs] And I now am realizing that, yeah, like, I think when I wrote it, I was just, like, making a joke.

Would you have t- would you have answered that question if you weren't engaged?

Maybe. Yeah, probably.

Okay. [laughs]

But I doubt my boyfriend will listen to this. Like, I doubt he'll listen to ... I mean, he d- he-

You don't know. He's probably, he's probably in our demo, unless he... What does he do for a living? Is he, like, a fucking-

He's so not in your demo that it's amazing and, like, a- angelic and sweet. Like, I, I feel like-

What does he do for a living?

... every ex-boyfriend I've ever had is in your demo, and then my boyfriend literally didn't know who the Grateful Dead was recently.

[laughs]

Like, he's that in... He's, like-

I mean-

He's British

... that's amazing.

So he's more of a Phish guy.

No. Like, yeah, he doesn't know what that is either. Like, he's like, "I don't know what's weirder-"

Okay

... "not knowing what the Grateful Dead is or, like, following the Grateful Dead around." Like, which is actually the weirder thing.

[laughs]

Like [laughs]

That's a good point.

Really good point.

Yeah.

Okay, so you got a British square. He doesn't know-

Yeah

... anything about your cool stuff, but what does he know about? What is he an expert in?

Every time I go to the doctor, I walk out of that bitch feeling dumb. I got no real info. This guy in a white coat just say, "You're fine," you know, "Drink more water."

He knows how to charge my copay.

Exactly.

That's about it.

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[laughs]

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What's a Revolve Man?

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He is an expert in languages. He speaks, like, eight languages.

Oh, okay. Here we go. Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. He's, like, a PhD. He's just, like, a nerd. He's a true nerd. He's... He... But you know what he does know 'cause he's British? Both of his parents were punks, like, actual punks. Like, his mom had one of those amazing hairdos.

Wh-

Like a... Like, not anymore.

Sure.

But when they were young.

You mean like a Mohawk?

No, like, she had, like-

[laughs]

What? It's Vidal Sassoon, right? Like-

Yeah, yeah

... like, when it's like-

Like the OG... Yeah, yeah, yeah

... the OG punk, like, really... What I actually have his-

Like a Ch- like a Chelsea cut? Like, like, only bangs in the front?

Oh, my God, no. That would be... Like, you mean the thing where the skinheads shave the whole head off and then that?

Yeah, that's right.

No, that would be crazy

That's right.

Like a punk haircut.

No, no, like the, like the, like the punks from before.

You said that she had a cool hairdo.

The punks from before.

She's referencing, she's referencing Vidal Sassoon, so it's more of a salon cutting edge cut-

[laughs]

... of the, of the-

It's like-

... '70s and '80s

... it's like, it's like where it's literally standing up on your head, like giant, like thing.

Mohawk.

It's just a Mohawk.

Liberty Spike. Liberty Spike.

No, but, but the whole hair.

[laughs]

The whole... Whatever. Whatever. Okay, whatever.

Like Marge Simpson? You talking about Marge Simpson-

Whatever

... or like Kid 'n Play?

It is actually sort of similar to the Marge Simpson, but just shorter. Like, it's like just going straight up.

My mother-in-law looked like Marge Simpson.

It's going straight up. [laughs]

Okay, so your, your fiance's da- or your fiance's mom is a Black guy. Got it.

[laughs]

Cool.

Yeah. [laughs]

Cool little high and tight fade. Very cool.

[laughs]

They're so progressive over there.

Okay.

British people don't really know how to do that.

Okay, so, so your man is a British linguist.

Yeah.

And he, he teaches-

But he's so weird

... he teaches language, I'm assuming?

He's so weird because they, they weren't allowed to... Like, he never listened to The Beatles until recently because he only was allowed to... It was, like, his dad was like, "The Beatles, that's gay."

[laughs]

Like, "We listen to David Bowie in this house." Like, so-

That's cool

... and then we were listening to The Beatles and he was like, "This is pretty good. Is this, like, an indie band from, like, the 2000s?" And I was like, "Are you fucking kidding me? This is the Beatles."

Damn, I didn't realize, I didn't realize Interpol sounded like this. This is-

Yeah. [laughs]

Is your fiance 13? How, how does he manage-

No, he's-

... to get through life?

I don't know, 34. That's, I, I don't know. That's what I kept being like, "I don't know," but then you know what? He's read, like, every book in the history [laughs] of the world, basically.

Okay.

So I'm always like, "All right."

Mm.

"I guess you got something."

He chose to focus, he chose to focus on other things.

That's right.

Okay.

But it is funny 'cause I'm like, "You, you've ended up with me," who, like, worked at V Files. You know what I mean? Like, I, [laughs] it's just like-

[laughs]

... I'm like, "I'm an idiot." [laughs]

Nice way to slide that in. Nice way to slide that in, Zoe.

I didn't know you were a V Files graduate.

Oh, yeah. I made, I, I wrote a lot of the V Files videos. I wrote and edited a lot of the V Files videos.

With, what's the, what's the chick's name now that has, like, a kid that moved away that was, like, the-

Danielle?

Yeah.

Oh my God, I love Danielle.

I love Danielle too.

I didn't write Danielle's videos. I didn't write Danielle's videos. That's all 100% Danielle.

You're telling me, you're telling me that the V Files corporation had enough foresight to have someone wr- pre-write that stuff?

[laughs]

No, no, not that. Please, not that.

[laughs]

I wrote all of the... There was a robot, like, video, V Files data, where it was about fashion history, and it was basically just text-to-speech scripts that I r- like, research and write about fashion history. It was a very-

Mm

... I was like, it was while I was at Oberlin.

Okay.

It was a very fun little side job.

Wow, that is funny.

Okay.

Yeah.

Well, I g- I guess speaking of fashion, and we could talk about V Files and stuff, but you, um, you, you were talking about something that I've always wondered about as well in, in your book, the, the kind of giant fashion magazines that cost $79 at Mulberry Iconic. And, you know, who is this for? Who's buying it? Who's making it? Is it a money laundering front for Russian oligarchs? Is it-

Yeah

... you know, a Nepo baby's pet project? You know-

Yeah

... do you think those are gonna be the only magazines that are left in our not-too-distant future?

Oh my God, that's a scary question. What if those were the only magazines left? Like [laughs] they, they don't have any words in them.

[laughs]

I like some of them, but that would be crazy-

They are lacking-

... if we were like, "Hmm"

... they are lacking in words. I will agree with you on that.

[laughs] I know.

I don't think, I don't think people buy those magazines for words, though.

I know, but, like, I don't go to the bookstore and-

For a beautiful editorial shoot, right?

They're gorgeous, but let's say you go to the airport and you're at the Hudson News and you can only buy, like... Actually, I love this magazine. My friend does it, Scenery.

Mm-hmm.

And it's like, okay, so I'm on, like, an eight-hour flight. I've got a picture book, [laughs] and I'm like flipping through the pictures-

Damn, these couches are sick

... and it weighs 30 pounds. [laughs]

You try to bring the magazine on and the, the gate agent's like, "Sorry." They put it inside the little luggage thing and it doesn't fit. They're like, "We gotta check that bag."

They have to check it.

"Gotta check that bag."

Gotta check that.

[laughs]

Here's a tag. Here's a tag.

[laughs]

[laughs] Damn.

It's going back to 36A.

[laughs]

Well, I mean, so if it, if it is, like, a, a money laundering front-

[laughs]

... or, or a front for something nefarious, you know, Chris has more eyeballs on it 'cause he's a part of the, the, the media a little bit more so.

Yeah.

How exactly does that laundering launder?

Jason, none of those things make enough money to make it worth it laundering. That's the problem.

I think it's, the, their intention is not to make money. It's to hide money, I guess, right?

Right. Like, you know that place Rice To Riches, like the rice pudding place?

Of course.

[laughs]

Of course.

Like, my... So my a- I, I don't know if I should talk about this.

For listeners at home, there's a, there's a restaurant in the middle of Manhattan that just sells rice pudding, and it's-

There's more than one location, actually, now. They've expanded

... it, it appears to be very popular, and that nobody goes there at the same time. It's a marvel that it's e- exists. That it's-

But you know it was started as a money laundering thing, and then it accidentally became too famous.

[laughs]

I've heard that rumor. I've heard the rumor that it was a money laundering thing, but you're saying they had to chill out because it got popular. [laughs]

Yeah. Every... 'Cause they were like, "What does everybody hate? Rice pudding. Great. We'll have a company."

[laughs]

"We'll get no sales, and then we'll just launder our money." But then everyone was like, "This rice pudding, kind of delicious." [laughs] And then they were, like, doing too well to launder the money.

[laughs]

But I don't know if that's true. That's, like, one of those, like, you know, things.

I wa- I want that story to be true. I mean, I feel like that's a TV show-

Me too. Me too

... plot right there. It's an amazing idea.

I used to walk by Rice To Riches all the time when I was going to Pinkberry, which-

Yeah

... clearly has been outlasted for, at this point, a decade by the Rice To Riches-

Basically cold rice pudding.

Yeah. I, I-

Yeah

... they did, they opened another one, though, which leads me to believe that your theory is correct.

Zoe, have you had the rice pudding?

It's really good. [laughs] It's so good.

[laughs]

It's so nasty, though. It's like, it's, it's too... You shouldn't eat that. Like, they're right. You eat it and you're like, "I shouldn't be eating this."

[laughs]

But it's actually so good. [laughs]

Can you give me, can you give me a mouth feel description as someone who hasn't sampled it?

Um, it's, like, super creamy, but then there's bits. Like, I, uh, there's, like, little bits.

[laughs]

Like, it's like, mm. Like, it's, it's not... It's like imagine a smoothie, like a smoothie, but it's not a smoothie.

[laughs]

Like, what's, like, unctuous? It's unctuous.

I think maybe, maybe something like a, like a clam chowder. It's a s-

Yes

... it's a silky, smoothie, rich thing. But thenOh, there's a bit in here

Bro, hell no. I ... clam chowder

[laughs]

Now I can never had it, have it.

Okay, Chris, here's a better analogy for you. An acai bowl with little bl- blueberries and diced pineapple-

Don't get me too excited now

... and little bits mixed in there, okay?

Don't get me too excited. But I mean, is it-

No, but that's too good of a texture. That's a bad texture-

What about, what about like boba?

Got it. Got it.

No-

Boba's too big of a surprise

... 'cause boba are like distinct. Boba are like distinct.

[laughs]

Like, this is just like a, a kind of like a, like a gelatinous layer, and then suspended within are these like not quite hard enough to be very distinct. 'Cause it's not like a crunchy bit. It's like a soft bit also.

Mm-hmm.

But just like s-

It's like a raisin

... like a, like a bleh.

What is the f- what ... But you can choose flavors, correct?

Yes.

Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure they got a vanilla whatever.

But I'm saying you're not going raw dog. You're getting like cacao or some shit on it.

Let me get a rice flavor.

I think I got cinnamon. I think I've gotten cinnamon.

Hey, Papi, let me get-

Cinnamon is a classic rice flavor.

[laughs]

Okay, do you-

The Ocuway [laughs]

Do you have, uh, do you have a, a connection with watercress soup?

Watercress soup.

The Ocuway?

The Ocuway. Watercre- you know, do you guys remember when like they would have so much watercress at Dimes? That was just ... I remember where everybody like-

[laughs]

I just remember that-

Is that a really cheap ing- is that like a really cheap ingredient?

Eh.

I don't know, but it was just-

It's not, it's not cheap, it's not expensive

... I discovered watercress from Dimes. I just was like, "Wow, watercress. This is ..." Like, at, it must be 10 years ago.

That's cool 'cause most people, most, most people go to Dimes and discover that they're non-binary, but you discovered-

[laughs]

[laughs]

I discovered the tiny leaves.

I go there and I discover, wow, tofu costs $38. I didn't know that.

Damn.

How is this, how is, how is this salmon more expensive than Balthazar? Anybody got the answers?

I'm glad that Dimes is still open and thriving in 2025.

Bro, Dimes is delicious.

Dimes is the best food.

Every time I go there I'm like, every time I go there I'm like, "This is exactly what I wanna eat," and then I don't go for six months.

Have you guys been to that restaurant near there called Food?

No.

No.

It's like Food with like five O's.

I'm not, I'm not going, I'm not going to his re-

Food?

You're familiar with the history of that, though.

I don't know.

It's, it's like n- it's next door to Time Again.

Oh, that guy. Yes, I know. It's what's his face, the painter man.

Lucian, but it's a famous ... It's like something-

Yeah

... that existed in the '80s, like the-

Yes, I know

... and he has brought it back.

Yes.

It's like a ... But I'm, I'm seeing some of the photos of the f- I've heard only bad things. But I'm seeing photos of the food and-

Yes

... I hate to admit, the food looks like it's of interest to me. Like a, like what they're serving-

What do they got?

It's just very regular food.

What do they got?

[laughs]

But the way that it's being plated and presented is in a, is in a ... It's like so plain that it's new and novel. There was like-

Can I ask you a question, J-

... like a, a, a beautiful steak with onion rings on it. It was just like a steak with a side of onion rings, and it just looked good, you know? There's no bullshit on it.

D- okay. I was hoping you were gonna say it was presented like a Krishna nourishing meal for the body.

Yeah.

But you're saying it-

But just everything is just very plain, but in a refreshing way, if that makes sense.

I love it because it was open for one week before New York Magazine wrote like a take-down on it.

Yeah. [laughs]

I'm like, let me ... Like, relax, guys. Let this motherfucker try at le-

Yeah

... 'cause it, the idea is really interesting and the history is really interesting. I think it's really hard to run a restaurant if you've never done it before. If that's like, "Oh, I'm just gonna ... I'll figure it out," is a crazy thing to do.

Yeah.

You do, you do have to get permits, and you do have to-

Yeah. [laughs]

... tell the city that your business is, is happening. And you do have to accept credit card payments.

I also think, I also think, and don't quote me on this, but I think you have to pay the employees, or sometimes they get upset as well.

Yeah, sometimes you gotta-

Were they not?

I think there was a litany of issues.

Oh, yeah. [laughs]

But it's still open, so I mean, I guess it's not that bad.

Not gone.

'Cause I, I f- I feel like it'd be closed. I didn't realize that-

Zoran kept it open.

I didn't realize where that was. J- no, Zoran's ... You know Zoran's eating Mr. Chow every night, high on the hog.

[laughs]

A rich, rich motherfucker.

Your usual table, Mr. Momofuku.

I loved, I loved that when they were mean to him about going to Omen, I was like, "Yes."

I ... Yeah, it was amazing.

He is my president.

[laughs]

Like, I live in a rent-stabilized apartment. Zoran lives in a rent-stabilized apartment. I shouldn't be eating at Omen, but I do anyway.

[laughs]

Like, yes. That is-

Okay

... what it is.

If I ... If, if nothing else, I want a mayor who is down to pay $40 for an avocado salad just like me. That's when I finally-

Yeah

... see myself in governance.

It's worth it.

It's also like, sorry, he gets a little treat. Like, not all ... Like, what? [laughs] Is that so bad to have a delicious treat? When you ... It's a ... You know what? He's probably not DoorDashing, spending like $60 for no reason.

No, mm-mm.

On like some stupid bullshit the way that people who get DoorDash for dinner, like tech ... You know, I, my brother works in tech, so I see the lifestyle. I love that guy, but I'm like, "Okay."

[laughs]

You guys are like getting ... Like, like my brother actually recently was like, to me g- like, "Did you know that if I didn't do DoorDash like every day, like, it's like cooking at home, it like saves you so much money?" I'm like, "Are you fucking ... "

[laughs]

It's so stupid. [laughs]

Did you know that the same $35 I spend to have a guy-

Yeah

... bring a bagel to me on a bicycle-

Yeah

... can buy groceries for like a whole-

It's cool that you're not seeing your brother's-

... freaking day

... a genius too. I'm sure he's very smart.

Yeah.

And is just-

He's so smart, and he's a really good cook too. But like the only time he cooks is when he's like doing a giant project of like, like, "Oh, I'm gonna make like lasagna, where I've made the like pasta from scratch and the thing and the thing." And he-

Mm.

[laughs]

So he, he factors in the opportunity cost of cooking. That's time he could be making money.

Right.

So it's a fool's errand.

That's exactly how I feel, Jason.

Right. Yes. Exactly.

That's exactly how I feel.

I might as well, I'll just take the money I've made and give it to an ugly person to bring the food to me.

[laughs]

Mm-hmm. Does he have a chick up there with him in his rent-stabilized apartment? Or is he-

He does. He does. He does.

Okay.

He's got a wife.

And wifey is down with the DoorDash lifestyle?

Well, they both work in tech. They are, they are-

Oh, they don't got time for this

... they're DINKs. They're DINKs.

[laughs]

So they are both just like DINKing it up up there.

Yeah.

I, I ... [laughs] I think that's-

I think we need a, we need a new word for DINKs in tech that needs to be a little more derogatory.

Ooh.

We need to in- yeah, there needs to be some additional letters.

DINKTIES.

DINK- DINKTIES added to the-

DINKTIES. [laughs]

Yeah, DINKTIES.

[laughs]

That's when, that's when you tell your husband that you actually don't wanna have kids but you secretly do.

[laughs]

[laughs]

No, we're gonna have dual income, no kids. And then as soon as you put the ring on, ah.

DINK.

Fucking DINKTIES.

[laughs]

She wants a kid now

[laughs]

The fuck? I thought we talked about this.

[laughs]

My bros warned me it was gonna happen, but I didn't think so.

Fucking dingkees. I knew your stock was gonna vest, bitch. Like, I knew it.

[laughs]

[laughs]

Spent all my boat money on fucking diapers. Fucking hell.

[laughs]

[laughs]

[laughs]

So do your parents... Who are, who do you think your parents like more, you or your brother?

Oh my God. Uh, well, I can't say-

'Cause you're accomplished, 'cause I'm saying you're accomplished in your own way. He might be a little more accomplished monetarily is my guess.

He is cer-

Just based on-

Well, you know, when I sold my book, My Brother is Such a Bitch, my brother was like, "Oh my God, you went from starving artist to lower middle-class artist." [laughs]

[laughs]

[laughs]

I was like, "You are a fucker." [laughs]

Can we get your brother on the podcast?

Yeah, your brother sounds like our kinda guy.

I'd be like, "You're cool. You're great, but-"

Actually, you guys should really help my brother

Which, which Equinox does he go to?

He does-

[laughs] Which Equinox

... no, so my, you guys should help my brother because he wears skinny pants. He wears skinny pants, and he wears, um, he refuses to wear jeans that are hard. He, he wears basically a jegging, like a jegging quality.

He wears the Rag, he wears the Rag & Bone sweatpant jeans?

He, he wears... [laughs] He has a pair of those, and he wears exclusively Adriano Goldschmids that his wife, who is a maxinista, gets him.

[laughs]

Um, [laughs] and, and-

What the fuck is Adriano Goldschmids?

You don't know AG? All right, so your brother-

You don't know AG?

... is stacking cash upstairs but he's wearing-

No, I'm a straight guy

... he's wearing the skinny AGs like he got 'em from the denim-

Yeah

... wall at Nordstrom.

Oh, just AG-

Yes

... Denim. Okay. No, yeah

... he really judges me when I spend money on clothes. He spends his money on, like, ridiculous stuff, like technology items. Like, he, he-

Does he have the Apple Vision Pro goggles?

No, he's not stupid.

Okay.

He got, like, a sick-ass 3D printer, dude. [laughs]

He has a 3D printer. He does have one.

[laughs]

And he, but also it's stuff like, like, he realized that he could figure out how to give me his internet, like, and I was like, "I don't care. It's fine. You don't need to."

[laughs]

But he spent basically, like, hundreds of dollars and, like, an entire weekend, like, running cable and, like, drilling holes through, like-

[laughs]

... the walls to, like, give me hi... He was like, "I can't believe that you don't have Fios. It's ridiculous."

[laughs]

Like, "I can't believe you're, like, paying for Spectrum." And he's, like, like, that's how he spends his money, like, doing his little tasks. Like, [laughs] he loves-

Oh, God. Okay

... he loves that.

It's really cool to tell your little sister, "I cannot believe you don't have Fios," is really so fucking-

I'm his older sister.

[laughs]

I'm his older sister. Like, that's, that's the th- that's why it's okay.

Mm-hmm.

Oh, you're saying this, you're saying that... 'Cause you're young, so you're saying this motherfucker's what, 28?

Yeah.

Damn, he's 28.

Mm-hmm.

He might even be 29 now.

He's, he's-

He, I think he's 29.

And he's married? He's already married?

Yeah, they got... The, the tech pe- all of his friends are married. I, and I'm like, "We're from New York. Like, what's wrong with you?" And he's like, "No, like, all my friends, they all get married."

Yeah, how did he turn out so Mormon growing up in Manhattan?

I know. I know.

Did he, did he go to rehab when he was 14 or something?

No, he's, like, the best-

Did he get out of his system?

... he's, like, he's, like, the, like, never misbehaving. He's, like, a true, you know-

Okay, so the answer to my-

Mm-hmm

... earlier question is him then as far as who your parents like more.

Well, my parents relate more to me.

Sure.

But they like probably hi- like he's-

Mm-hmm

... a m- a more easily likable individual.

I think whoever has a kid first is who's gonna win this race.

That's true. That is true.

That's how it goes.

That's probably... My parents are, like, so... They want grandchildren so badly that they've started, they live on the Upper West Side, and they've started just, like, babysitting random children in our building.

[laughs]

Like, they literally will just be like, "Oh, yeah, I'm, like, pi-," my, I'll, like, call my mom, and I'm like, "What's up?" She's like, "Oh, I'm picking up the girl from 3," uh, [laughs] from the grocery, from the, from school, you know, bringing her home.

My kids won't ha- won't, they won't give me grandkids, so I've been forced to child traffic-

Yeah

... in my local area.

I know.

[laughs] Yeah. I'm like, "You guys sound creepy." Like, my dad is like, "Look at all the nice, like, coloring pages I printed out for the, like, little kids in the building."

[laughs]

I'm like, "Uh, I don't know." [laughs] Like-

Okay, you, one of you guys is gonna have to shit a kid out before your parents go to jail.

Yeah, this is, this is-

I gotta say

... yeah, this is getting fucking-

It's not an if, it's a when. [laughs]

They're waiting for the knock to come, and it, it-

[laughs]

[laughs]

It could happen. That's fucking hilarious. What goes on, what, did you grow up on the Upper West Side? I'm always fascinated.

Yeah.

I've never, I haven't spent much time on the Upper West. I feel like I'm more of an Upper East girl.

Oh my God, you gotta. The Upper West Side is terrible, but it's the best place ever. It's a small... It's, it's kind of like I'm trapped here 'cause I have my rent-stabilized apartment. I don't think that I would live here otherwise, but it's so lovely. I mean-

Do you ever run into someone you know?

Are you kidding? Today I was at the Equinox on the Upper West Side, and I was, um, doing that thing where you walk on the treadmill, like, up, like, uphill, and-

12, 12, 3:30. We talk about it every fucking day on this-

That-

... podcast somehow.

Yeah. [laughs]

That's what I do. People know about that?

Of course.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You think you're the only one that uses-

Okay, I-

... Instagram and looks at big butts?

I don't get it off Instagram.

[laughs]

I Googled what should I do if I hate run... Like, I literally, AI told me to do that. Like, the Google AI-

Wait, other people know about the treadmill at the gym?

I-

You're telling me that other people walk? That's crazy, dude.

No. [laughs]

[laughs]

Yeah, I Google it because I, I only do yoga. Like, I only do yoga, and then I was like, "Oh, I'm, like, dying of, like, heart disease or something, so I need to, like, incorporate-"

Mm

... but I can't run.

Your cardio is shit.

I can't run. I just can't. I seriously can't do it. So I Googled how to do treadmill if you can't run, and then it told me to do that. So the... Anyway, while I was doing that, next to me on the, like, two away from me on the treadmill was a girl I went to middos- middle school with. Coming out of the barre class was a boy from my high school's mom, who I've, have his salad dressing recipe. And the, um-

Nice. Nice, nice

... also there was a girl from my synagogue, like, my childhood synagogue, all on this, like, Equinox floor, and I was like, "Goddamn, it's like, th- this is why I go at noon usually."

Mm-hmm.

You guys are in my-

Let me ask you, let me ask you, let me ask you a follow-up question. Who looked the best? You can say yourself.

Okay. Well, yeah, me. Or, or the mom.

[laughs]

The mom was snatched. You know what I mean? Like, the mom was snatched. But, but, [laughs] but, but besides that, me.

Mom didn't have the new Outdoor Voices set on, though, right?

Yeah, what kinda set-

That's all you

... are you, are you wearing your aloe mesh hat, or you keep it low-key?

Do we like Outdoor Voices again? I know they re-came out with a thing, but is it good now?

No, no. No, of course not.

Okay. Okay.

No.

I didn't think so, but I got scared-

They re-came out with a thing

... that I, like, didn't know.

Re-ca- re-came out is just... [laughs]

[laughs] I, everything-

I re-came out with a thing

Everything just feels so topsy-turvy now for me. Like, I feel like I used to know what, like, being, like, a health conscious, like, medium anorexic, like, insane person was all about.

[laughs]

But then we got RFK, and then, like, all of the, like, MAGA healthy people are, like, fucking up everything. 'Cause I'm like, "Is it... What is healthy now?" Like, what is it to be-

No.

Like, you know?

We're doing... Look, we're doing a good job, the MAGA healthy people.

[laughs]

Like, we've sort of, we've-

Oh, that's you?

Well, I mean-

[laughs]

I don't-

Well, they just, they just announced-

[laughs]

... their new, like, food-

Pyramid

... triangle. The pyramid.

What's on it, Celsius? [laughs]

No, no, it's, it's like, it looks like a Sweetgreen menu. Like, it's, it's like millennial designs, like nice typography.

Yeah.

It looks like a cool website.

Yeah.

And grains are at the bottom, and then, you know, meat, dairy, blah, blah, blah, and at the very top, vegetables and produce. So it's, it's a correct food pyramid.

No, at the very top is meat.

Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry.

Meat is at the top, and then vegetables are below it. 'Cause that's when I was like, "Oh, fuck you. Come on. It can't really be true that that's what we're supposed to be doing," obviously.

We're protein maximum, bro.

But I feel very vindicated because Mark Hyman, who I actually think is, like, crazy, but also I make his recipes all the time, Mark Hyman came out with a Sweetgreen menu, and my boyfriend fo- like, forwarded it to me and was like, "Oh my God," like, "this is... That's the salad I customized." [laughs]

You, okay-

So I'm just like, "Thank you, real genius." [laughs]

You, you and, you and Hyman are connected celestially. Who-

Yeah.

I saw that today because we were talking in the intro, um, they got Huberman, uh, over at Goop doing a salad.

Yeah.

And then this guy, Hyman, has a salad-

Yeah

... at Sweetgreen. Who, who is Mark Hyman and why is he your salad GOAT?

I prefer Hyman to Huberman, 'cause Huberman is, like, like... Hyman is, like, kind of weird also, and he will literally be like, "Mental illness is just about your diet." Like-

[laughs]

Like, "Cancer? That's your diet." And you're like, "Okay, bro," like, "take a pause for a second." [laughs]

[laughs]

But he's Gwyneth Paltrow's actual doctor, and he has that thing Function, which I also think is just, like, crazy. Like, I'm not doing that.

Mm-hmm.

But he has all these recipes that are like, "Oh, here's how to have, like, a soup that's, like, good." Like, you know, if, if, if, it... I don't know. I go to his website and I'll, like, look, and I'll be like, "Okay, great, that's, like, how if I wanna be healthy-"

Mm-hmm

... I can, like-

Hy- Hyman steers you in the right direction usually.

Yeah. Yeah.

But you're saying he's a-

I like, I like Hyman

... but you're saying Hyman is a medical doctor.

He is. He is a medical doctor. He, he is Goopy doctor. He is the Goopy doctor.

I am the Goopy doctor. Not a bad position to be in.

But he's insane.

Is Huberman a doctor, Jason, or is he just a, like, a football player?

He's, uh, he's... No, he, he's neither. He's, like, um, a professor at Stanford. He's, like, a scientist.

No way. I swear to God, I-

Yeah, but not in medicine.

I, yeah, that's-

Not in medicine.

I don't know. I mean, in, in-

No, I don't think so

... in, like, neuros- neuroscience and health and shit. I don't know.

I used to have respect, I used to have respect for universities, and then when Scott Galloway and Andrew Huberman are professors, I start to wonder what we're pu- what we're putting our kids through.

That's... Well, but Stanford is crazy. You, you know what book you should read, if you haven't read it already? The book Palo Alto by Malcolm Harris. Have, do you know about that book?

No, no, no. No.

It's, it's a history of Palo Alto from, like, the founding of-

Mm

... San Francisco to now, and it, and Stanford is really, like, the center of all of this, like, eugenicists, like, it was where they in-

They're the problem over in Stanford.

Th- like, yeah. No, like, like, yeah. Like, they used to have to, when you, when you would apply to Stanford, you'd have to include a picture and your height. [laughs] And they would, like, let you in based on hot. And they would, like-

Well-

... pick hot women for, like-

I don't see a problem with that

... to, like, breed with.

And when you say hot, you mean race, of course, right?

Yes, race too. Race too. But it was like, "That's a beautiful, that's a beautiful-

[laughs]

... six-foot-tall woman." Like, "We're getting her."

Right. Well, what's-

Mm-hmm

... look, the... I think Stanford is, if nothing else, a more expensive nightclub. I don't really see the difference between the sort of door policies-

[laughs]

... at these places.

Yeah, Stanford, they're, they're... I mean, the whole Silicon Valley thing is, like, move fast and break things, and then the things that you should break-

Yeah

... are people of color and uglies and fatties-

Yeah, you don't want-

... is sort of what they're-

[laughs] Oh my God. [laughs]

I don't even know, but I don't e- I can't think of... I'm trying to think of all the guys at my gym that wear the different collegiate logo dry fits, and the Stanfords are leaning a little too nerdy for my taste.

Yeah, yeah.

They're good-looking generally-

Oh, really?

... but they're not, like, the Dartmouth guy, you know?

Oh, really?

They're looking like people who got 3D printers. No offense to-

Yeah, it's like, it's like guys who are good-looking, but, like, they turned the nerd up 30% more than they should've, you know?

Wow. I guess it's just been over the past, I don't know, 20 years that they've stopped being like that or something.

They probably, yes.

But I, I think that's every Ivy League school now, right?

Well, yeah, it's just nerds now.

I think it was always a healthy dose of nerds.

I know, but I feel like there was a lot more, like, blue blood, like, my-

We, yeah, we want some more jocks

... you know, legacy students.

[laughs]

You know?

Yeah.

Just some regular, good old regular people.

No, I don't like jocks.

You don't want jocks?

It's just a bunch of, like-

Don't act like that

... virgin violin players who have, like, a 7.0.

Yeah, that's true.

And you're like, "Okay, this is-"

Actually, my boyfriend is a jock.

[laughs]

He, he is a jock.

I guess m- more so we need more, we need more middle-class college students, not just-

Yeah

... and I don't mean that by money, I mean that just by ability and skill level.

What is your, what, what sport does your boyfriend play? Archery doesn't count.

He's gonna be so mad at me for, like, d- saying this on live-

Does he fight robots?

... camera or whatever, but he, he played water polo at Oxford. [laughs]

Okay. All right.

Um-

That's not that... Okay.

So-

Water polo.

That, now-

That's not good?

I will say I'm hard, but I don't-

[laughs]

That is, that is not, that's not like I played, I played soccer.

Does he have a photo of himself in a Speedo on his Instagram grid?

Oh my God, he has... No, he doesn't, but I have his Oxford Speedo, and it's so tiny. Like, it's, like, so tiny. And because the water polo Speedos, they, like, you know, when they play water polo they're all trying to rip each other's undies off.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so they're, like, super tight so they don't fall off, and it's so funny. But like- [laughs]

I've never seen that on Heated Rivalry, but I've heard about stuff like that.

Yeah. [laughs] They should have that.

You hold his Speedo up to yoursAnd it's like maybe-

His is probably smaller

... his might be a little smaller

Like, it's so, so small. It looks like it's for a little boy.

A fucking little bitch.

Yeah.

Wow, that's... Okay, so is he still broad and shit, or is he chilled out now that he's just reading books all the time?

He's, he is chilled out. Now he just plays squash like an old man.

Oh my God.

He's, like, always playing squash.

You should introduce him to some sports that you don't have to be rich to play.

Well-

There's all kinds of sports out there right now

Water polo and squash.

I know. But it's also-

I'm just jealous, Zoe

... British people-

I'm just jealous

I like that

... you, British people, you don't understand their infrastructure of sports that they have there for cheap.

It's different. It's different.

Unbelievable.

Mm-hmm.

They have these leisure centers where it's, like, $10 membership with squash courts and pool, sauna, thing. I'm like, "What?"

Yeah, but they don't, they don't look great, so they're not lifting weights.

Yeah, I think-

They're in... They, they... No, they look all right.

Oh, the British. No, no, no. I thought you meant the leisure center.

[laughs]

I was like, "Ew, some British guys."

No, the leisure centers can look great.

[laughs]

The people, I'm saying. I'm like, "What are these guys doing?"

I know.

They're boozing too much.

I know. They really are.

I wanted to ask, you, you mentioned taking improv classes at some point in your life, and-

Oh my God, when did I allow that to be publicly known?

Big mistake

... taking those classes may have aided you in the writing process. Uh, and Chris is in the middle of doing some writing right now. Do you think he could benefit from some improv classes? And how did, how did that help you out?

I think that the pyramid scheme, which was UCB, has folded, though.

[laughs]

So I don't know that they're still doing the improv class model that they used to do. Um-

Right, right, right

... I loved it.

What was the, what was the mo- what was the model?

I, when I was in high school, took improv classes at UCB, and they basically had the students who were really good could, like, perform for free. They could audition and perform for free on, on the stages. And then if they were really good, they could perform for free on different stages. And then the best ones of the performers could be the teachers of the people. And it was like, how is this ma- like, I don't understand how this is making any money. So I think some of the performers would eventually get paid, but it was mostly free performances. But I have to say, it was amazingly fun. Like, it's so much fun to do. I, I haven't done improv in, like, I don't even-

But why is it also the dorkiest thing on Planet Earth?

So that's the problem.

[laughs]

Like, that's the problem. If, like, cool people did it, it would be the best thing ever.

Mm.

But unfortunately, so many people that do it are huge dorks.

Mm.

And then you're like, "Well, I don't have anything to relate with you on." And like-

Well, I think it's 'cause cool people already possess those skills naturally oftentimes.

No, but when cool people do improv, it's actually amazingly funny. Like, do you know there are these two guys, Aaron Jackson and Josh Sharp, they're, like-

Mm-hmm

... kind of around gay guy comedians. They're kind of in the, like, Bo and Yang sphere.

Mm-hmm.

But they are, like, cool gay dudes, and they do improv, and they're so funny. Like, and, and there are a bunch of, there were a bunch of people that did improv that were so funny. I really like doing it. I kind of miss doing it, but it's also too embarrassing. And I hate, I hate performing. I, like, don't like performing on a stage. I, like, get a stress blackout, you know?

Mm-hmm.

So [laughs]

Mm-hmm, okay.

I don't do that.

But so fun, but so fun.

I loved every minute of it that I remember [laughs]

No, the, the classes. No, the classes and practicing.

Oh, okay.

Because you'd just be, like, with your friends, like, do- doing this thing where you are all paying a lot of attention to each other and making these... It's basically what we're doing now, but you have to remember things and call things back and do... Like, it, it's fun.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

I don't know. Chris, you should do it. I don't know how you would do it, though. But you'd find it great.

I can't do that. I can't do anything, unfortunately.

Yeah.

I'm, I'm in a prison of my own making.

In my class when I was a 17-year-old was, do you know the Kanye producer Mike Dean?

Of course, the GOAT.

Of course.

Mike Dean's girlfriend, who was this, like, hot, like, like, super blonde, like, sneaky-

Was she also 17?

... beautiful model.

[laughs]

No, she, she was not that much older than me. But she was, she was-

[laughs]

Mm-hmm

... amazing-looking. And then, like, we became friends. And it, that was so fun for me as a 17-year-old, like, growing up in New York, who-

Were you smoking weed with Mike Dean?

N- not with Mike Dean, but I was, like, going for drinks with her with my fake ID. Like, it wa- it wa- which was, which was fun. 'Cause even growing up in New York, like, New York can be a very parochial place for, especially when people grow up there. 'Cause e- basically everyone that I grew up with works in finance or is a lawyer.

Yeah.

There are, like, the people that aren't. But it was nice to just be like, you know, you could go out dancing with a fake ID or, like, go to Williamsburg and, like, see indie bands. But, like, you didn't get to really, like, branch out in that way.

Sure. You're going to have a cocktail a- a- at a, at a-

Yeah

... nice place, let's say.

Yeah.

You're not going to... Yeah, that's different. That is different.

Yeah.

God, I love Mike Dean so much. I forgot about him. One of my favorites.

Yeah, cool guy.

Have you seen how he dresses now?

Does he dress d- does he dress different than he used to?

He just looks stupider and stupider.

[laughs]

Like, he just, he, like, switches up how stupid he looks depending on, like, who he's working with-

[laughs]

... in this way that's, like, admirable 'cause he's just like, "I don't know, man. I'm with Travis Scott. I'm gonna look like Travis Scott." It's like, bro, you're a 55-year-old white guy.

Oh, no.

You can't look like Travis Scott. Like-

I, I think the amount of weed he smokes-

Yeah, he smoked himself st- he smoked himself stupid

... he, he smo- he smokes too much weed, and the, the money that he's making is coming from people that look like Travis Scott and hang out with him, so-

Yeah

... just by osmosis, he's gonna look himself-

Yeah, that's so true

No choice. No choice.

Jason, you live in LA, right?

But he is still our god. We love him.

You live in LA.

Yeah, yeah.

In LA, you get to see... Like, every time I go to LA, I'm like, this really is where the craziest people, like, looks-wise are. Like, you don't get to see the kind of... Like, wherever plastic surgery will be in the next, like, 10 years in New York, it will trickle over to here and, like, the crazy stuff.

Mm-hmm.

I love that. I, I love that.

I love it. It's a different kind of crazy. I, I, I would say I like it, too, but it's, you're right, it's more of a plastic surgery brand crazy than it is, like, a I dress crazy 'cause I'm trying to express myself 'cause I just got here off the bus from-Des Moines. You know what I mean?

Oh, mm-hmm.

Yes.

You, yeah, you guys, you guys have Dressen over there. We have ... But I think nowadays in 2026, plastic surgery no longer really is, like, location-based anymore. We were talking about this yesterday with, with Erin Levine about, you know, things are no longer like that is LA, that is New York.

Right.

Plastic surgery happens more in Korea and Turkey and other, you know, like-

Right

... everywhere in the world. You go to small suburbs and there's Botox places on every corner and-

Right

... everyone's doing it everywhere, you know?

I know. I saw Kirstie Alley-

Just like, just like GLP-1s.

Would you-

Yeah

... would Nome, did Nome get, what, some more lip filler?

Just, ah, while I was at the gym, they had the, the TVs on and I saw Kirstie Alley obviously being like a total, you know, ghoul. And I was like, "She looks like anybody on Instagram." That's so crazy. That's just crazy that we can have, like, a terrible baddie-

[laughs]

... like, who is like, [laughs] like you know what I mean?

[laughs]

It's like this is just like she should be a Mormon mom influencer that I'm seeing on Reels being like, "You know, this is how I clean up after my..." But instead she's being like, "It's good that I shot that lady." Like, what?

[laughs]

Like, it's, I'm like, "What? How is this person in charge of anything? Ugh."

That, that is actually ... No, that, that is a good ... What, I think what Trump will be remembered for most is ushering in the terrible baddie to the, to the White House and giving-

Yeah. [laughs] Terrible baddie

... giving birth to a whole new kind of chick that did not exist before.

[laughs] Yeah, it's true.

Ghoul is a fun word for that.

Terrible baddie is real.

Ghoul. Um, okay, last question, Zoe. How many times do you say the phrase the Bowery in your book?

Did you count?

No.

Like, should I do Price Is Right style of guess? [laughs]

I, no, I, I unfortunately I don't have the answer, but if you can give me the PDF.

46.

I think it's, it's definitely more than that.

You think more? 75.

I don't know what the answer is. 75 sounds about right, though.

Okay. Don't you just love the Bowery?

As long as you're under 100.

[laughs]

The Bowery's such a funny ... New York has such funny things like that where it's like why, why does it get that distinction? I mean, obviously it's a historic street. I, I, you know, blah, blah, blah. But there's cer- I'm trying to think of other versions.

Broadway.

There's other things like that.

Like when people say on Long Island versus in Long Island.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

On, on Long Island or I'm ... Yeah, that, that's a good example, Jason-

But that's classic New York

... where it's like-

We say like, "I'm waiting online."

Online or in line, yeah.

I don't say that. That's unbelievably stupid to me.

Yeah.

Makes me crazy. I'm in a line, I'm not on it.

But that's, but that's-

Fuck out of here.

Yeah. Welcome to New York, sorry, you know?

[laughs] Thank you.

Um, [laughs] um-

Houston Street-

The Bowery

... is called Houston.

Yeah

... it's all fucked up.

But you know like the Bowery, how it used to be spelled like B-O-U-

Yeah

... W-

Yeah, B-

... E-R-I-E?

I think it was B-O-U-W-E-R-I-E.

I didn't know that.

Isn't that so cute?

It is very cute.

Like, isn't that what, like, [laughs] like Smitten Kitchen? [laughs]

There, there-

[laughs]

The Bowery. [laughs]

Not Smitten Kitchen. No.

[laughs]

There's definitely, there's definitely something in New York or has been something in the last decade that spelled it that way and closed.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because the spelling, the spelling did not work for the patrons.

Yeah.

That's, that's my guess.

Someone had a big hat running it.

Mm-hmm.

The Bowery. [laughs]

The guy who started the Meatball Shop opened it up. He has a big hat.

Bro, the amount of ads-

Didn't work out

... I get from the Meatball Shop guy for all his new ventures.

Wait, does the Meatball Shop-

Do you know about this Meatball Shop guy?

First of all, of course I do, 'cause the Meatball Shop honestly, those are kinda good.

Banging.

Yeah. [laughs]

Banging.

And, and-

Banging

... as a Mark Hyman-

2008 up in this bitch

... as a Mark Hyman, like, true lover, like, you could get meatballs on lettuce. And that was pretty new then. Like, you could not-

Yeah, that was ... No, that for sure.

For me, that was huge as, like, a teenage girl. Meatballs on lettuce? That's huge.

No, that was keto before we had keto.

Yeah. [laughs]

As a Primal, as a Primal kitchen girly flirting with easy.

Let meatballs on lettuce get in my belly. God, that sounds so good.

I don't have to go to, I don't have to go to Subway anymore. This is cool.

Subway?

All right, Zoe.

Just, uh, let me get a meatball salad. Uh, yeah, just to go.

[laughs]

No dr- dressing on the side.

No dressing.

[laughs]

Uh, Zoe, thank you for joining us on How I Got It. It's a pleasure. Um, the book is everywhere you get books, I assume.

Happiness and Love, not Love and Happiness. I'm glad that you guys remembered to say it the right direction.

I thought, I honestly thought-

Happiness and Love, my brother

... I thought about that. I was like, I bet 90% of people get this wrong.

It's just always funny when it's, like, on a thing where they're interviewing me and then I have to be like, "Okay." [laughs] Like-

Mm-hmm

... sorry. [laughs]

You're like, "You know it's written behind our heads correctly?"

Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

Just glowing from the wall.

You were so close, so close.

Yeah. [laughs]

No, the, no, the words are right. The words are right. It's the order that you're having a problem with.

Yeah. [laughs]

Thank you. Good to see you.

Thank you. Thank you. Okay.

We'll see you soon. Okay.

Okay.

Later.

Bye bye.

Peace.

[upbeat music] Her tears are never ending. You wanna rock the separate tent and na, na, na, na, na. A girl like you. Do you think is it normal to go through life oh so formal? Na, na, na, na, na. A girl like you.

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