879. - Olivia Nuzzi

All right, uh, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian, and they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world, and they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you?

We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place.

All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. [upbeat music] How Long Gone, uh, a beautiful day here in Manhattan. The sun is shining. The guys are outside getting their pump on. TJ, what's Gucci?

I'm glad that the boys are outside. Uh, I remember you were talking about guys sweeping leaves and admiring their form and, uh-

[laughs]

... civic duty last time we spoke, which was 24 hours ago.

[laughs]

You were just coming off the tarmac at O'Hare.

Yes.

And now you are already back home.

Yeah, I, I would say that the Chicago trip was, um, let's, let's say not the best timing in my life-

[laughs]

... but I'm glad I went, and we're back, baby. It's all good. I-

It's a lot easier on the other side of it, isn't it?

It... That's right. No, I mean, I, I went to the hotel. I sat inside for four hours, went and had dinner at the venue with the band, watched them play, and then went home. It's all-

Mm-hmm

... I mean, you know.

I go on Delta. I buy my plane ticket. I go to a place in the Midwest. I take a photo of MJ Lenderman. I eat a shrimp cocktail-

[laughs]

... and then I'm up at 3:30 to get back home.

That's l- Sorry it was a tuna tostada, but otherwise, yes.

[laughs]

Well, there was a lot of shock and awe.

I l- I love Chicago in the winter. The tuna tostadas, they are the, I mean-

[laughs] Exactly. That's what I mean

... it just hearkens back to the seasons.

Yeah, you guys go to Mexico City for that? Okay.

[laughs]

Whatever you wanna do.

Have fun with your little Contramar with-

[laughs] Exactly

... Emrata-

Yeah

... and the hairy guy who fucks everyone-

Yeah

... over, over there. I'm gonna be here-

Y'all have fun with that

... uh, [laughs] in a place that has cornhole, and they've got some pretty good five alarm tuna tostadas-

[laughs]

... coming out.

[laughs] Five alarm tostadas. But yeah, when Jake pulled up in the UGGs, I was just f-

Mm-hmm

... stunned, and he was, he, he played drums in UGGs, which I feel like [laughs]-

What a sentence

... I was like, "Does that make it harder?" And then he was like, "Yeah, it definitely makes it harder." [laughs]

It should absolutely make it harder to play drums in UGGs. I don't know anyone who's played drums in UGGs unless you're an unhoused person or whatever, but, uh, we are balls deep in UGG season. I guess we should say ankle deep, I guess, but-

Well, depending on the, depending on the style you get, it could be balls.

Interesting. Okay.

You can get the YSL over-the-knee Telfar UGGs.

[laughs] Yeah, the, if the Telfar UGGs don't go, uh, don't touch the bottom of your top, what, what's the, what's even the point?

Nah. What's the point?

In the-

Try again

... in the Butter Timbs ball, ball scrapers.

[laughs]

[laughs] Uh, okay. Carolyn has a, an UGG philosophy that I've been keeping to this season so far. There's an indoor UGGs and there's an outdoor UGGs. What say you?

I mean, as a man, I'm not-

New York is your runway, so it's different

... I'm not wearing UGGs. I'm, I, I wear the slippers every day. I'm wearing the slippers as we speak inside.

Okay. Have you ever worn those slippers outside, go get a little bacon, egg, and cheese or something like that? Go pick up a new $84 magazine at, uh-

[laughs] No. I can't keep-

... at, uh, one of your local Mulberry shops?

They have to stay inside, or they become a different thing to me.

Okay.

You know? If they don't, but-

Okay, so you're with it.

I'm, I'm-

But you're saying you would, you, you don't, you don't need an indoor and a, an outdoor because the thought of you wearing UGGs outdoor in public, it's never gonna happen.

I'm not even, like, opposed to it morally, uh, but I just wouldn't do it myself. You know what I mean? I just think it lo- I don't look right. I-

Mm.

You've done it. It looks fine.

Just, just like a, like a, like a Timberland or something.

Yeah.

Like, some people c- or, or a Timberland or a bucket hat, some people, like M- MJ Lenderman wearing some all black UGG boots outside, he pulls it off. It works, right?

Unfortunately, yes. Uh, it, m- much-

Yeah

... to my chagrin, but I think you're, I think you're probably right. I mean, I think for women the rule is different. I think, um, obviously hot chicks can do whatever they want, but especially when it comes to UGGs, I think either length-

Mm

... works.

So important.

Pause. The, you know, you could get the ankle or the, the, the higher version.

Mm-hmm.

Or even a slipper if you're feeling nasty.

What about even the mule, Chris?

I don't like the mule. The mule's actually the one I don't like.

Okay.

That's that mule I don't like.

It's important to know where, where your, where her line is.

Yeah, I'm-

And we found it

... I'm letting 'em know. I'm letting 'em know. But I mean-

[laughs]

... I, I think it is. We are knee-deep in UGG season, and, and I hope everybody has a place they can get theirs cleaned once that salt gets on them from the snow-

Oof

... 'cause it will, it will fuck up your game a little bit.

Fuck your game up. Hold on one second. I have to turn the song on for Carolyn. She just texted me.

Yeah.

It's, it's pre-9:00 AM here in LA. Like I said, we podded 24 hours ago, and we're gonna pod 24 hours from now. We're stacking 'em. We're banking 'em. It's Spotify Wrapped weekend, and we're banking the episodes.

I was about to say thank you guys for tagging us. It means a lot. I won't be reposting any of those, but I see them all, and that's, that's what counts here.

I will be reposting those if you are famous-

[laughs]

... or person of color. We need ya. We need you out there.

But I, I don't, I, I just, I find it, the exercise now they- they're aging you, this feels like we could get into some weird territory here. Next they're gonna do race. Next they're gonna do race.

[laughs]

[laughs] I'm saying how much further can we go? 'Cause I'm, I'm looking to pump the brakes on this. I think the, I think the, it's time for a less data-driven society when it comes to the Spotify Wrapped.

Yeah. I mean, it is, it does seem insulting because there's no real sweet spot. Like, I don't think anyone will be happy with whatever answer Spotify tells you. Like, a friend of the show, Casey Lewis, she said, she posted hers, and it said you, you-... or a 17-year-old because you listen to SahBabii and Playboi Carti.

Ca- Ca- Casey Lewis is, is, uh, one of the foremost Young Thug experts-

Yeah

... that I, I kn- l- I, and I, it's, it's real, and I appreciate that about her, that she's living her life out loud thanks to S-

She's a Thug enjoyer

... thanks to Spotify. It's-

But then some people are like, "Oh, you know, you're, your age is 78 because, like, you have some music from the si- you know, 'cause you like listening to The Beatles."

Yeah

And sh- you know, like eh.

You're gonna age me for listening to the band? Okay. Gu- guilty as charged. [laughs]

I mean, you know, if the, [laughs] if the, uh, if the suede boot fits, I should say. [laughs]

[laughs] Put Pop Pop under the covers and turn on The Last Of Us. It's, it's his time.

If the V- if the Vizvim ankle bootie fits.

That's true. That's true. That's fair. That's fair.

Um, yeah, last night had a little, had a kings dinner, uh, with Chloe Wise, Eric Warheim, and Carolyn. We hit Osteria Mozza. Shout out to the Osteria fam. Had a little, little chili-

Mm

... LA pasta-

I love that restaurant

... explosion. You know, of course Eric had to splash out on the wine, on the wine list. Unfortunately I didn't really get a chance to really enjoy that $750 bottle the way I wanted to.

Well, did Eric pa- did E- did fucking steakhouse man pay for the wine, or did you have to split it after splashing around a little bit in your mouth?

He, well, he's not steakhouse man this month. This month is Super Bowl commercial man. This is where-

Oh, so he had the 750 to spend is what you're saying. [laughs]

He-

He had a light 750. He said, "I got it."

He, he said, "I'll, I'll handle the down payment, and y'all, y'all can get the monthly."

'Cause usually, I mean, he's always paying for Chloe's dinner, but if Jason gets a little piece-

[laughs]

... then you know things are looking good.

Yeah.

Then you know, then you know th- we're flush right now.

Yeah. I, I really need to get into the... If, if anyone out there wants me to direct and concept a Super Bowl commercial for your brand, just let me know. I've got nothing but ideas. No way to execute them, but I-

[laughs]

... I would say I have a great team, but I don't.

You're like, "I have zero track record, [laughs] zero team."

[laughs]

"In fact, this is sounding worse as I describe it, but just get in touch if you're interested. Like, we'll figure it out from there."

Look, the pros and cons of being an an i- idea man, you know what I mean?

That's so funny. That's a $750 bottle of wine feels a little too LeBron for my taste, but God bless.

It w- it was a, it was a '13 Barolo. It was exquisite-

'13?

... with the beef cheek.

'13? That ain't even that old, bro.

When he said it's a 2013, I said, "Hmm. Well, okay." But I mean, but it w- it is 12 years old

Bro, I want the block, I want the block party, I don't want the block party Barolo, bro.

[laughs]

I want some fucking, I want some-

Yeah, ship in on the block party

... I want some shit-

Yee, yee.

[laughs]

[laughs]

I want some shit that make... [upbeat music] Not the block party Barolo.

[laughs]

Oh, hell no. Oh, God.

[laughs]

That's funny. Well, I'm glad. Okay, that sounds good. M- Mozza's one of the, one of my personal... I don't go there enough, but I think about it pretty often, 'cause... Oh, you know what I'm doing tonight, actually? Hit- hitting the newly resurrected Babbo.

Oh, wow.

Which I've heard is great even though Batali's up in Massachusetts fucking growing carrots or whatever. This is where we're at.

It's better for Batali to be in Connecticut with the Swiss chard instead of saying behind as he's grabbing your behind. [laughs]

[laughs] Behind means something different when he says it. That's, that's for fucking sure.

[laughs]

That's for sure.

Yeah.

Well, uh, before we talk to our guest, this is gonna come out after I g- after Hanover has launched, so I, I wanted to mention it. Um, Hanover-usa.com is the website. [laughs]

Okay.

Um, that's about it r- that's about it really. But we're having a party on Friday. This is a brand I've been working on for a couple years, and, um, I'm really glad for it to be out into the world.

Thoughtful American essentials coming soon.

That's us.

I'm gonna enter my email address-

That's us

... right here. It says enter using password. I don't have access to that one yet, but.

Unfort- unfortunately the website isn't quite ready yet, but thank you for giving this little preview.

Oh, of course.

But we got a polo, we got a polo shirt for you. I think you're gonna like the thickness.

Poles. Okay. I mean, I, I'm, I'm always on the hunt for a polo.

Well, n- I know. I literally, I, I know you are. I'm, I'm-

Right now my top is, is 2013 Uniqlo. Has to be a certain, certain age range.

Those are a little too short for me in the actual scheme of things, but I like the way they fit. That was my, that's my only issue with those historically.

They are a little short, especially for me as having a longer body than you.

Yeah.

But, um, I'm looking forward to it.

[laughs]

I'm, I'm really curious to try the Jjjjound one as well. We'll see what happens.

Did you order yet?

No.

Those Canadian duties, you know, it's tough.

I didn't even think about my, my hoodie tariffs. [laughs]

[laughs] That's why, that's why we're make-

Hoodie tariffs downstairs now.

[laughs] Hoodie tariffs, it's time for softball.

[laughs] Yeah. Um, our, speaking of softball, our guest today, Olivia Nuzzi.

I haven't heard of her. What does she do?

She, uh-

I haven't really heard much about her

... the flashy reporter who lost her job at New York Magazine over a relationship with, uh, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. returns with a memoir, Light on Gossip and Reckoning, says the, uh... What is this from? I forgot. It's from a major publication. But yeah, she wrote a book. It's called American Canto. I know her from her musical career as Livvy. Her song Jailbait was very, was, was on my MySpace page for a long time of course.

I'm just interested, I'm just interested to ask her why she's doing this at all.

When you say this?

Uh, How Long Gone, or anything like How Long Gone.

[laughs]

Uh, uh, because I feel like this is a situation where maybe, um, the press has kinda done the press for you, I guess I would say in some ways.

Mm-hmm.

But that's, that's not for me to decide obviously. She has a, she has some of the best in the business working for her, so I'm sure there's a strategy involved. But I was, needless to say, I was surprised to get this email.

Are you fishing for compliments because you, we, you got the call from a real PR agency?

No, no, no.

You like, you like it when you get the crisis PR email, don't you, huh?

It's, it's, I d-

Start licking your little chops

... of course I do-

[laughs]

... but I was still surprised by the whole... I was just, the whole thing I was just like, "Oh, this is, um, this is interesting, and it's happening fast," as they say.

You go talk to our, our good friend Tim at the Bulwark if you wanna discuss politics and things like that, and timelines, and VP noms.

[laughs]

You come to How Long Gone if you wanna sell some books, honey. We're gonna talk about fucking Erewhon and Lana Del Rey for the next hour and four minutes.

This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian, Stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's, uh, it's trying to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world, and I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions.

A lot of questions, but how often? 'Cause we do this podcast three times a week, and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do?

Three times a week, and I, I, I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe gonna be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess.

The Guardian is not some billionaire-owned platform. They're not afraid to say what they wanna say, brother.

Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in, in what, uh, journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at, at, [laughs] uh, Stateside.

Mm-hmm.

But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch on YouTube. It's three times a week, and, and who couldn't use more news? You know, especially, especially when it's, when it's not, you know, from here, let's say.

[laughs]

Give, give it a, give it a listen. Give it a listen. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by our best friends at BetterHelp. Jason, we're, we're deep into May, which is, uh, Mental Health Awareness Month, and this is just a reminder that whatever you're going through, you don't have to go through it alone. Life is a damn journey. Some days feel good and others feel overwhelming. Whatever's keeping you up at night, it's easy to feel like you have to figure it all out on your own, but the truth is no one has all the answers. Well... And no journey should be alone. Having someone with you to listen, to understand, and to support you can really make all the difference.

I agree, Chris, and sometimes, you know, it, it's nice to be talking to somebody even if they're not even listening, even if you don't even get to be in the same room with them because what you're doing is you're admitting these things to yourself and that's the most, that's the most rewarding thing you can do sometimes, so you can have a great little therapy sesh with your perfect therapist at BetterHelp. Choosing between over 30,000 people so you can get the right one just for you. Over six million people globally are using it, and you know, have some breakthroughs. Go on that walk after your BetterHelp sesh. You know, whatever it might be. Get a nice little lunch all for yourself, maybe a non-alcoholic kombucha, and just think and be like, "Damn, I really am him." You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have somebody with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/howlong. That is betterH-E-L-P.com/howlong. [beep] Oh, uh, where... Are you at home right now, Olivia?

Uh, yeah.

We're in the 'Bu? [laughs]

Yeah, I live in, I live in Malibu.

Okay. Do you plan on ever leaving? Are you gonna stay there for a while?

Yeah, I think I'll stay for a while. I really, I like it here. Um, there are more lizards than people and, uh-

More lizards than lizard people?

[laughs]

[laughs]

Um, I bet you the rate of lizard people in Malibu is pretty high.

Lizard people ratio-

Like-

... in Malibu is quite high.

[laughs]

But they, they, but they wear Chrome Hearts, so it's hard to tell kinda which ones are which.

Yeah, I don't know what's up with that place. I always, there's always, like, a line by Chrome Hearts, and I just, I'm pretty, I'm just line-averse in general, but, um-

[laughs]

... I, I don't know. [laughs] I don't know what the, the fuss is all about.

Well, I can tell, I can tell you a, I can tell you a little bit about it. Depending on how much your book advance is, you could go get something in there.

[laughs]

You know what I mean? The pri- it's not cheap, unfortunately. That's, but the, the lines are very real. The demand is high.

Yeah, I'm not, I'm not terribly interested. [laughs]

They're opening a, a Chrome Hearts hotel in Malibu.

Just down the street from you.

Have you heard about this?

[laughs]

Did you read it in the local gazette?

[laughs] Uh, no, The Malibu Times. I, I have been seeing it there.

Are you a proud subscriber of The Malibu Times, Olivia?

Um, I don't know if they have subscriptions. Um-

[laughs]

But I, but I do follow their, their coverage. It's, I, I love, like, a loc- it's a hyper local media market. I, I think that's-

Oh, yeah

... always really interesting. Um, and I act- like, I started out, um, writing for an alt-weekly, um, in New Jersey where I'm from, and, um, I love alt-weeklies and, uh-

Mm-hmm

... all of that.

I miss alt-weeklies too. I, my, I grew up in Atlanta, and creative loafing was a big part of my, uh, eye-opening.

Mm.

The alt-weekly I wrote for is actually, it's still running. Uh, it's called the Tri-City News, and, uh, it's run by this, like, amazing character, this guy Dan Jacobson, who is a, an assemblyman in the New Jersey, uh, legislature. And, uh, I always used to love writing something. I was a teenager and I was writing there, and then people, if I went out to, like, in town at all, like, people would come up and argue with me, and I thought that was the most exciting thing [laughs] in the world-

[laughs]

... to be argued with about my-

Well-

... my dumb opinions.

Well, luckily, luckily you're in a great position then now, 'cause all anybody wants to do is fucking argue about what you wanna say.

[laughs]

So you've, it's come full circle.

[laughs] Well, it's funny though. It's like actually they wanna argue about things that I haven't said that other people have said.

Sure. I guess that's-

Um-

... I guess that's a good point. That changes the, the, the narrative a little bit.

Yeah, it seems very, uh, irrelevant actually what, what, uh, I have actually said.

Sure.

What is, okay, so what is your level of consumption right now? Do you, are you staying offline? Are you logged? Can you not help yourself? Like, what is your level of self-control?

Is your phone bricked? Flip phone? We got a Trump flip? A Trump flip. [laughs] Um, I... He, he got, he got rid of the flip phone a long time ago, Trump, actually, but, but he did have a, I think, like, pretty close to the 2016 election he was still, um, he was still flipping.

That was late. That's late. That's late. See, he was still flipping.

No, I know.

That's late stage.

It's super late. Uh, but he got an iPhone, um, he got an iPhone [laughs] in the period after the 2020 election. Um-

He went with purple. I like the purple one.

[laughs] He's evolving all the time. He's becoming a smarter animal. Um-

His mind.

Well, he's gotta use those, those bruised hands to order McDonald's on DoorDash, you know?

Um, oh my God.

[laughs]

He... I wonder if he knows about that, about, like, delivery apps.

DoorDash? [laughs]

Yeah.

I mean, I'm gonna say that most presidents don't know. I mean, maybe if once they're in the private sector, but I, I feel like you're not allowed to do stuff like that, you know? I think caviar would blow his mind- [laughs] ... if he, if he knew that you could do that.

I think she-

You're saying I can get sugarfish to the White House? [laughs]

[laughs] Um, but I, you know, very little consumption of, of that stuff. It's pretty easy to avoid it-

Mm

... in my experience, anyway. And, um, but also it doesn't, it doesn't, like, crush me if I, if I do see something, and I, I think it's pretty interesting.

Mm.

And I, on bal- on balance, I'm, like, more curious about it than, you know-

Yeah

... devastated by it.

But do you ha- okay, but have you always had the stomach for this in your line of work, or do you think it's something you've developed over time? I think some people are just wired that way.

Um, when I was much younger, 'cause I started, like, I became a, a public-facing person in the media really young. I think I was, like, 20.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, I guess it was, like, a, a conditioning [laughs] over, over this, you know, 11-year period, um, to get to the point where I can kinda just, like, look at something awful or unfair or [laughs] uncharitable-

[laughs]

... that someone said and just be like, "Huh, like, that's interesting," and, and not be, um, crushed by it. And frankly, like, oftentimes people have a really interesting perspective, even if they're not being nice about it. [laughs] Um, and like, I-

Well, that's, that's big of you- Yeah ... 'cause they, you know, they call me all kinds of shit, and I'm, I'm saying, I, once they start calling me names, I'm out. I don't care what you gotta say.

Yeah, but even the names are interesting because [laughs] it's like I, um-

What do we got? Hold on, what do we got? What do we, what are they calling you now?

[laughs]

Let's l- let's rank them.

Oh.

Let's, let's rank, let, let's rank... We'll, we'll weigh in on how good or bad we think they are. [laughs] Yeah, name some uncharitable names you've been called. [laughs]

No, they're not, I wouldn't say that they're particularly creative. Like, we're not dealing with, uh, with wordsmiths over here, but, [laughs] um-

[laughs]

... but, um, it's interesting to, to kind of, [laughs] to fully, uh, appreciate the, the nature of the hatred and, like, um-

Mm

... where it's coming from and, like, what it looks like from p- different people and their different vantage points. And, um, it just doesn't devastate me. And as it relates to the more just misogynistic stuff, it just feels like I'm kind of like an avatar in a very old story. You know?

Mm.

It doesn't feel, um, it doesn't feel about me so much as it feels it's about, like, this tribal, um, ancient, [laughs] uh, war that will always be being waged as long as man walks the earth, right?

That's right, man.

And like, that stuff, I think-

You s- you used the right word there, man.

[laughs]

We're walking.

I meant the r- I meant the [laughs] human race we're walking. [laughs]

Oh, my bad, my bad, my bad.

Um-

Oh, my bad

... but I, you know, it doesn't feel personal, that stuff. And even the, a lot of it that's, like, violating doesn't, doesn't feel personal either, and I think it's because so much of it, it's like a reaction to a kind of... Once you've been, like, squished into a charac- a character or a caricature and, like, you know, pulled apart and utilized, uh, for different people for different things narratively or different arguments, you become, like, this kind of malleable putty, um, that people can utilize in a, in a culture war. And it does cease to be about the individual, right? Because the individual doesn't really factor in.

Mm-hmm. But do you think... I guess, though, what I've n- what I'm noticing about this, this situation, and I, you know, I follow it relatively closely just 'cause it's sorta my job-

Mike and Don? [laughs]

Well, don't worry, yeah, I'm praying for myself too. He made his bed. I guess, yeah, yeah, I, I was born this way. I, I guess what I'm saying is it feels like there's people that are really on, like, an ethical high horse that maybe are reaching in some ways. Like, I think that there's, I don- I don't know. I, I feel like some of it is a little bit of, like, moral panic in some ways, a- and there's other things you can be upset about, but they're choosing to s- focus on something that's a little more salacious.

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because, like, I, you know, I wrote this book, American Canto, and I knew... A, a couple things were evident to me way before, um, if it's coming out, right? The first is just that I knew the second that I kind of poked my head up from this exile that I was in, that I would probably be met by some madman charging at me with an ax. And, um, I also knew that there would be efforts to shout over me, and I figured it would be pretty loud, [laughs] even though I didn't know exactly what the shouting would endeavor to, to acheive.

Well, luck- well, luckily, well, luckily it's just your ex on Substack, so you gotta pay for that. [laughs] You know what I'm saying? You don't even... [laughs] Could be a lot worse. [laughs]

But, yeah, but it has really successfully, um, i- infected sort of, um, perception in a, in a broad way, um, that-

Mm-hmm

... it has these reverberations where it just, it informs people's thinking about me, about my book. Um, and it has, it's been interesting to observe that, um-

Do you, but do you think it will sell more books, which is obviously good for you?

You know, I really wasn't concerned with that from the outse- like, if I was, I would have, I would have written a very different book, right? Like, the book that I wrote is, it's not a very commercial book, right? It's about this period of, of distortion and, and reality warping in America over this 10-year period of Donald Trump's rise to dominance, and my, my personal story and, and my, uh, fuck-up factor into that, right?

Yeah, but that's the only part anybody cares about, 'cause that's the fun part.

I guess I'd have a more optimistic view of, um, you know, everybody or anybody, or the word you just used, right?

[laughs]

I think that people, um, who participate in online mob discourse are, are not the same thing as people generally.

Well, I think, no, I think that's true. Those are two different kinds of people. I completely agree with you on that.

You know, and I think, I think smart people generally, um, are, are not very loud on the internet.Um, and so-

How dare you? [laughs]

[laughs] I like, oh, I always write with, you know, kind of thinking about the smartest person in the room, and to me, that's like the most curious person, the most open-minded person, the person most, uh, interested in nuance.

Hmm.

So I'm not, um, you know, I'm, I'm not trying to appease the people who would participate in a mob, but I also knew that there'd be, on the left, like a lot of dissatisfaction with me that I didn't come out trying to destroy the person I refer to in the book as the politician.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and that my refusal to like be angry and, um, out for some sort of revenge would get me cri- criticized a lot.

Well, he's... Like, he's doing it to himself. He doesn't need your help. But is the, is the, um, is the choice to say the politician yours? Was that s- or was that pressure from the publisher?

Yeah.

Was that for legal reasons?

No, I mean, there was no, um... I, everyone in the book and, and most companies are, are referred to, um, not by name, and to me, that was just kind of-

Mm-hmm

... when it occurred to me, it just felt right, and so I didn't spend too much time-

'Cause, 'cause you're... Olivia's a down-ass chick. That's why.

[laughs] Um-

Mm-hmm. She rides.

But I, I didn't think-

[laughs]

Um, for me, it was really about like removing this story that I wrote from the immediate discourse.

Mm-hmm.

So you're, so you're saying by, you're saying by redacting the names of these people and corporations, it makes the story more timeless.

I guess so, yeah, because I didn't... I find it, I found it distracting. You know, I, I wanted to remove it from kind of regular reportage, if that makes sense. So like it felt to me like... I, I'd written this profile of, um, a Washington Republican, unnamed, uh, when I was at New York Magazine, and it was the f- my favorite piece that I ever did, um, because it was so much more about his psychology and about, um, how he was strategizing to kind of climb and survive in Donald Trump's Washington, and it made it more universal, I guess, and less about him, the individual. And people were able to focus on his philosophy and his morality and, um, on what he actually said because they weren't distracted by him and his identity.

Mm-hmm.

And I really liked that, and I, I... And that, the Washington Republican actually is in this book, um, at a certain point talking about, um, reincarnation [laughs] and, uh-

[laughs]

... and his views about, uh, karma and his nihilism. But, um, I-

Damn, I didn't know Republicans believed in karma. That's big. [laughs]

[laughs] They, they definitely believe in nihilism.

That's true. All right. Fair enough. One of, one of three's not bad.

So that make, that makes it... You're able to show, here are the characters in this the way I see them versus the way that you have already projected in your mind.

Yeah, I guess so. And, but I never... I, I knew that people were gonna know who-

Yeah, it ain't a s-

... all or most-

It ain't a secret. It ain't a secret

... like of them, of them were. Yeah, it really wasn't, it wasn't about that. But, um, it just, it was... I guess it was just a literary choice. Um, and it, um, it felt correct to me, and, um, most of the book was sort of like that, like just what felt like the right thing I didn't question too hard, you know?

Mm-hmm.

What is, what is the measure of success for this book for you? Just getting it off your chest? Is it sales? Is it, like, what comes next? Like, what are you, how are you judging this, or is it merely just-

Who is the young Reese Witherspoon who will play you on the Hulu series, et cetera, et cetera?

Um, that is racist against blondes, first of all.

[laughs]

Um, but I, I, um, I take really seriously that, um, the most valuable commodity in the world is our attention, right? And to ask anyone to take any time out of their one life, unless you're the Washington Republican, you believe in reincarnation, which case you've got a few. But, um-

[laughs]

I'm on three. I'm on three right now.

But, um-

Don't test me. [laughs]

I, I take that super seriously, and I just didn't wanna put anything out in the world that felt like, um, it was about me and my ego and my fear, um, and wasn't going to be of use to anybody else. And I'm happy with what the book is, and I, I kind of, I was pretty clear I'd, while I was working on it, that there could be a chance that the immediate discourse and culture would just basically say, "No, get the fuck out of here," [laughs] the second I, I came back, right?

Well, don't, don't-

But I don't care

... Ry- Ryan Murphy's circling the wagons. Ryan Murphy's circling the wagons, no matter what you do.

I didn't, I didn't care. You know, I just, I thought, "Well, a very good outcome for me would be if in 10, 20, 30 years, this book was considered valuable." Like, it's really a letter from a time and place, and like I had this strange vantage point, um, in the last 10 years being, you know, in Washington with Trump a lot and being affected by his rise to power.

Are you, have you weaned off of s- sort of, um, the access to information that you had? Because I imagine it's not quite the same as it was a year ago, two years ago.

[laughs] Weaned off.

Like, I, I-

Like I need another hit of information. [laughs]

I mean, I, I w-

[laughs]

I, I feel like if my phone, if my phone was constantly buzzing with, like, it, like news and information I really wanted from the industry that I worked in, I would be pretty addicted to that feeling, and it's, it's a good feeling, and if that stops, I, I, you know, I wonder how that feels.

I'm not a news junkie. Like, I, um, I was really interested in characters, and in what's amazing about politics and-

Sure, but those exist, those exist in every industry, you know what I mean?

Yeah, they do, but not the same way because the stakes in politics-

Sure

... are enormous, right? And that's the kind of drama and, um, adrenaline o- of, um, that ensemble and, and, um, plot is all related to those stakes.In a way that doesn't really exist in the same way, at least immediately, um, in other industries. And so, like, a great character to me wants something.

Mm-hmm.

Right? And in politics, uh, people really, really want things. Um, and their whole life is about trying to get what they want, and that is, like, an engine for a character's [laughs] arc, and it's really interesting. And you learn a lot about people that way.

Hmm.

Um, so to me it was about kind of observing it that way, and I, I like politics and I like, uh, knowing about government and I'm interested in it, but it was sort of, like, more in service to understanding the human condition as it works in Washington.

You, you love characters, you love characters so much that you're willing to talk to politicians.

[laughs]

Yeah. Like, how many more fat, white guys in ties can make a decision? Uh, you know-

[laughs]

... I get it.

I think it's cool. I mean, I, and, and you liking characters so much is sort of your example of, of wanting something the way a politician would want them. You know, like you said in the book, speaking the language of the monster, you have to worry about becoming the monster yourself. Are we on, are we on track? What, what's our monster timeline looking like right now, Olivia?

I don't know. What do you guys think?

I, I feel like you're moving in the right direction.

Yeah. Thank you. [laughs]

No, no, no. I, I think you're at a, you're at a crossroads much like, much like Britney, but-

[laughs]

... you know, I think that you can do, you can go the Britney route or you can go the Lana route. You know what I mean? I know those are likely two north stars for you.

Yeah, I would never shave my head. Um, but I-

[laughs]

... I mean, what we've done to Britney as a society, I think about a lot. Um, she's in the book a bit, actually. But, um-

Let's talk, let's talk about that for a second because I think that obviously the Free Britney movement is powerful and loud, but I do think she needs help, right?

I just have empathy for her. I, I, I just hope she's all right.

Oh, I can-

Yeah

... I'm, I can, I have empathy, I have empathy for, I have empathy for her too.

We all do, but do you, do you have a hardline plan about what-

[laughs]

... we're gonna do about her conservatorship?

Yeah. [laughs] Like, what's-

Like, have you, have you devoted hours in the bathtub to this?

[laughs]

Why does her son have a $200,000 Mercedes? Is he taking advantage of her?

I, you know, I find all of it just, like, so gross and invasive and, like-

But don't you think that that's what, gross and invasive is sort of what our society is built on in some ways?

It is, but-

And, like, whether it's they're talking about you or they're talking about a politician or they're talking about Britney Spears, that is unfortunately what makes the world go round.

Yeah, but you know, I guess I think that you can shift its rotation by just not meeting everyone on that level, you know, and talking about other stuff.

I would like to think that. I, I would, I think you are right in a blue sky scenario. I wonder if society is too far gone from that at this point to ever go back or make a turn for, for the better direction.

I, I'm an optimist generally, um, against all common sense-

Yeah

... and, uh, [laughs] um, history.

[laughs]

Yeah, maybe a natural disaster will bring us together or something like that, you know? Who knows.

Well, I don't know. I just feel like I believe in the power of the individual. Um-

Mm-hmm

... and systems are just made up of individuals, so I, I don't know. I, I, I'm not in such a bad state about it.

Are you d- oh, wait. Are you s- are you smoking weed? What, how do you get like this?

No, I don't, I don't smoke weed. [laughs]

You don't smoke weed? Are you drinking a lot at least?

I don't drink. [laughs]

Okay, so are you sober?

She is drugs.

Not in the sense that, like, I got sober or something. Um, like I'm not-

Okay

... uh, opposed to the idea that, like, if someone one day offers me a drink, I might have it. I just don't, like, um-

Okay

... uh, and I was very aware of the fact that, like, I felt, like, all right during this kind of, like, rapturous period of my life, and I didn't want to, um, affect my chemistry, um, in any way that might make it so that I didn't feel all right, you know?

So you were raw, so you were raw dogging this whole time.

[laughs] Um, I, you know, it's been interesting.

Well, I mean, you could say sex, sexting is a drug. [laughs]

It's all been real- yeah. I mean, you, you could. I'm, I'm off the stuff as well, but, like, I-

[laughs]

[laughs]

I, I just-

How many days you got, honey?

How many, how many days you got?

She's clean. [laughs]

She's going to meetings down there at Sun Life. [laughs]

Sun Life. Sun Life is so interesting. It's like-

Don't look at the calories, sweetheart

[laughs]

Do not look at the calories.

I, you know, I try not to drink cold beverages 'cause they, it, it, like-

Oh

... it goes against everything we know from, like, Eastern medicine about, um-

You're chi. Fucks up your chi

... how you drink.

Okay. You're, you're, you're too, this is, I'm starting to, I'm looking for some cracks here. You're too, you're a little too calm for me, um, if I'm being honest. You really Zen the fuck out.

Too calm? Do you, do you want me to cry? [laughs]

No, I don't want you to cry. I, I don't.

We, we, maybe, maybe when, uh, how do you like to feel out of control?

Hmm.

That's an interesting question. What?

[laughs]

[laughs] Like, like, if you could feel out of control.

So I, I like using drugs and alcohol to feel out of control.

Oh, I like-

For example

... um, I like adrenaline. Like, I like, um-

Pushing things to the limit. Pushing things to the limit maybe?

[laughs] I like speeding. I like speeding, I like skydiving. I, yeah, I like, um, stuff like that.

Okay. Sky, skydiving's a red-

I think I'd be a, I'd be a stunt driver

... skydiving's-

Skydiving's a red flag

... I think these-

So that's good. I'm glad you finally fucking-

[laughs]

... blessed us with one.

[laughs] I would-

Can you drive a stick?

I can't. I would, but I really wanna learn 'cause I really want a, um, a '65 Mustang. And-

Oh

... so I need to learn how to drive stick. But, um, I would love, in another life I'd be a stunt driver.

Mm. [laughs]

Well, some might say you're driving the stunt course right now.

[laughs]

You know what I mean? By, but it's just-

[laughs]

... on a podcast.

I'm sure there's some, some, some people who are listening right now who would love to bring the, the Mustang up overAnd teach you in the, in the Gelson's parking lot how to work that gearbox, okay?

Um, yeah, I'm kind of, like, antisocial, but, um-

Yeah. [laughs]

I was gonna ask. I was gonna ask, who are you, who are you kicking it, who are you kicking it with?

[laughs]

Um-

And are, are weird, are weird dudes from your past, beyond the one with the Substack, coming out of the woodwork trying to-

Ah

... give you the future text, like, "All this gossip has made me think-"

[laughs]

"... maybe we, I missed," you know, that kind of thing.

Well, you know, it's like I was in a relationship with one person for 12 years and, you know, obviously there was the-

It didn't end super well. It didn't end super well

... matter of the affair that I... [laughs] Right. It ended badly, I think you could say. Um, all, the one thing-

Hmm

... all parties are in agreement on is that it ended badly. Um, but I, um-

Am I gonna have to pay you $5 a month to hear more, or are you gonna let me...? [laughs]

Look, everyone's first 12-year relationship-

[laughs]

... it always ends like that, so don't beat yourself up.

Yeah. Look, if it doesn't end with, like, you going to the FBI, it, it wasn't a bad breakup.

[laughs]

It... That's my new standard. [laughs]

Yeah, yeah. If he doesn't call you a CIA informant-

[laughs]

... it ain't worth it, you know what I mean?

[laughs]

It... Was it really love, you know?

Yeah. Well, I've been called worse.

[laughs]

[laughs] Okay. Well, speaking of that, uh, what do you... What does the phrase Joan Midian mean to you?

[laughs]

Oh, is that what, uh, is V... That's funny.

[laughs] It's pretty... I have to say, I, you know, as far as-

Well, you, you mentioned earlier about, like, reading the criticism and stuff, and sometimes you can, like, learn things and it's interesting and-

Yeah, that's-

... or you can appreciate it

... that's pretty good.

It is pretty good, isn't it?

I think that's pretty good. I also, someone said, uh, I saw Joan Didion on Adderall, which made me laugh.

Mm.

Uh-

I feel like-

Mm-hmm

... but, you know, it's funny. It's like, what? We've got, like, one... Our, our references for female writers are, uh, could perhaps be expanded. [laughs]

Oh, I knew you, I knew you were gonna turn this into gender shit. Very smart. Very smart.

So, so are you-

Very smart

[laughs]

I mean, the, the subject matter, drive- driving around LA by the beach in the Mustang.

I... It's funny, though, 'cause it's just like, I don't think if... I'm too Italian-American. There's no, um-

You're not WASPy enough for this.

No. I mean, like, I, I respect her, obviously. Um, but I-

I respect WASPs, too.

[laughs]

I totally get it.

Um, yeah, I don't, I don't get it, and what I... The fact that I don't get it is what I respect about it.

[laughs]

But I just... You know, it's not, um, in terms of, like, prose style or, um, sort of the spirit, um, of, of the work, I think it's quite different, but you can only have so many references, I suppose.

Yeah.

I mean, I... Well, it's also, you gotta remember, it's gotta be a reference that's sort of enough for people to understand. We can't get deep into the female literati and expect Twitter to understand that.

[laughs]

[laughs]

Are you still calling it Twitter?

Oh, I'm never calling it X. Fuck that. And that's not even, that's not-

Yeah

... uh, I, I just... You can't just do that. You know what I'm saying? You can't just change... It's like I've had friends do this, where it's like I grow up with them and their name is Jake, and then all of a sudden they turn 26 and they're like, "I'm actually Jacob now." I'm not...

[laughs]

Nah, bro, you're Jake.

Yeah.

And, like, that's fine if you wanna move forward professionally and with new people that call you that, but I ain't going back. Same thing with Twitter.

I'm not calling you Christopher. I'm not calling Steve Steven.

Yeah, my, uh-

That's just how it goes.

Yeah, my mom calls me Christopher. But what is your... Are you on Twitter?

Yeah. Tell me about your Twitter algorithm, and we'll tell you about ours.

Every time I go to the doctor, I walk out of that bitch feeling dumb. I got no real info. This guy in a white coat just say, "You're fine," you know, "Drink more water."

He knows how to charge my copay.

Exactly.

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Oh, um, I don't look at it all that much. Um, I like, on Instagram my algorithm is beautiful. It's just, it's really pictures of, um, baby deer, um, videos of, of actual human babies getting, like, glasses for the first time, and they get really excited when they can see.

[laughs]

There's a lot of that. Then there are, like, girls with eating disorders from Sweden, and, uh-

Okay, now we're talking... Wait, hold on.

[laughs]

Now we're talking about my algorithm. Hold one.

The diagram has finally dropped.

One second. Hold on one second.

[laughs] And, um, and [laughs] and then, uh, you know, a lot of, a lot of stand-up, 'cause I, I love comedy. And, um, so a lot of, a lot of Norm Macdonald, um, archival. Uh, well, it's all archival I suppose at this point.

[laughs]

Norm Macdonald. And, um-

No, nobody greater, nobody greater than Norm.

Yeah.

It's all archival at this point, I guess. [laughs]

Um, but, uh, it's, so it's pretty, it's lovely in there.

Your algor- your algorithm doesn't sound that fucked up. All right, but, but you didn't answer my question. Are people coming out of the woodwork? Are people trying to kind of-

Oh, what I was saying, though, what, what I was saying is, like, I just, you know, I was in this one relationship for most of my adult life, so, like, there's not, um, there's not that much, uh, history, like, of-

Mm-hmm

... so it's not as if-

But I, I bet there's some new, but there's probably some new suitors out there kicking the tires.

Yeah. Are you, are you ready to trust again, Olivia?

Yeah.

No. I, uh, but I do think I-

Nah.

No

... I probably need conservatorship.

[laughs]

[laughs]

I wanna get you, no, I think we need to get you on The Bachelorette. I think that could be-

[laughs]

This could be, this could be Love Is Blind, Bachelorette, you know, one of those. I think that could be good for you. And let's be, you like them older. You like, you like them older, so maybe Golden Bachelor. [laughs]

Um, I... Golden Ba- [laughs] is that a, that's a show?

That's where the Ba- that's where The Bachelor's, like, 60.

That's where it's, it's all salt, no pepper.

But he's pretty hot. He's pretty hot, don't get me wrong, but he's just a little bit older, more established.

He can still get it up.

I think, uh, I'm good. I think, I think-

[laughs]

I think I, I need to-

I'm good. I'm good.

You're good for now?

I think I'm f- I'm all set for now, yeah. [laughs]

You know what? How about this? Try this on for size.

No, thank you.

[laughs]

I re- [laughs] not me.

Whatever, whatever it is.

Whatever it is.

Um, no thank you. [laughs]

Okay. I, I, I'm a, I'm an admirer of Lana Del Rey, and I see a lot of you in her.

Oh, thank you.

What about a swamp daddy for you?

Oh.

Um, I, I'm happy for her. I love her. I think she's such a good writer, um, and really just, like, understands the zeitgeist and, and has developed so impressively as a writer throughout her career, and I, I really admire her. And I, I'm happy for her.

But you ain't trying to eat dinner at 7-Eleven.

[laughs]

You just wanna listen to the music.

No, I would never do that. [laughs]

But there, there's a Malibu version of swamp daddy, though, that, that could, you know, a little blue collar. He's got enough money, but he's not-

Yeah

... filthy rich. W- works with his hands.

I'm really, I'm really not interested-

Could be in construction

... in anything-

Okay

... such as that right now. [laughs]

Damn.

Have you, um, have you ever hung out with Lana Del Rey? Or at least-

Uh, no, no

... has it gone down in the DMs? No?

No, [laughs] no. But-

That's actually surpri- that's surprising. That's gonna happen b- I would say in the next two to three months.

Of all the people that reached out, I would have thought Lana would be one of them.

Oh. Um, well, why would you think that?

I just feel like you guys are some kindred spirits.

Oh, that's nice.

I also feel like people like her are actually, part of the reason they're so good at their job and so tapped into the zeitgeist is because they actually pay attention to what's going on culturally in a way that I think we think they don't because they're so removed from reality.

Yeah, maybe. I don't, I don't know. I also just think, um, she's, she's just such a skilled, um, chronicler of her human experience and, um, her emotional experience. And I, I think it's difficult to do that, you know? And I, I really am impressed by the way that she pulls it off in, like, more and more interesting ways over time.

She's, she's dropping canto after canto, isn't she? [laughs]

[laughs] Wow. Oh, beautiful.

Um, let's go back to the blonde really quick. You, you said that you could potentially argue that Donald Trump is the first blonde president of all time, um-

You've gotta ignore, yeah, you've gotta, you've gotta just disqualify, uh, Gerald, Gerald Ford.

We always do.

Yeah, and I always do as, as well. So, um, I, and you kind of have to, you have to have a, a strict definition of blonde. But, um, I think you can make an argument, yeah.

Oh, absolutely. Most photos of Ford are kind of black and white-y, so it's, it's hard to tell, right? Um, or at least sort of '70s style. [laughs]

[laughs]

Um, but you said, and, uh-

[laughs] No they're not. What?

They're sepia. They're sepia-toned.

They're, uh, they, they're rich with-

[laughs]

... with sepia colors. Um, and you, and you said which is why?

Year do... [laughs] When do you think he was president?

Uh, he was in the '70s, right?

[laughs] Yeah. No, there's a lot of color, uh, imagery of Gerald Ford.

But you know that th- those-

I pulled up the Google images. I'll go f- it's 50/50 black and white and color.

All right. Fine, fine.

[laughs]

No shade. [laughs] Um, and then you said, I don't remember exactly, but you said, and, and Trump's blondeness was why he's been able to successfully, um, like, capitalize on his, his victimhood? Is that what you said exactly? I don't remember the, the word-for-word.

Oh, I, you know, it was, I guess it was, it was writing about, um, this Alfred Hitchcock quote that, uh, blondes make the best victims. And I think he said, so I'm paraphrasing, but it's, um, they're like virgin snow, um, on which you can see bloody footprints. Um, and it's sort of this, this part of the book that's about, um, victimization and the aesthetics of victimization. You know, so much of Donald Trump's, um, political career, uh, since he s- he first started running in, uh, 2015 for office, has been about his martyrdom, right? Um-

Mm-hmm

... and, and sort of, um, imposing his sense of martyrdom on his, his base of supporters, right? A, a frequent refrain in the last election was he would say, "They're not coming after me."Uh, they're coming after you, and I'm just standing in their way

That's good stuff right there

Yeah, it was sort of a d- a, you know, bit of a joke about, um, his blondeness being a part of it. But, um-

[laughs]

His sense of-

I liked it

...entensation is profound, you know?

Yeah. [laughs] It, it's, it, which is a very difficult skill. It requires, I guess, that, that level of blonde ambition to be like, "You know what? I'm a, I'm an awful criminal billionaire, and I'm gonna get you to feel bad for me. And I'm gonna let you... I'm gonna paint myself as a victim," which seems like a difficult thing to do.

Yeah, I mean, from the very beginning with him, um, you know, I, I always go back and I, I watch the announcement speech when he, you know, came down the eleva- e- escalator and said, uh, that Mexico was, was sending rapists over the border. And everyone focused on that. But the, the big picture speech, the, the sort of pitch to the American public was that, "You all are getting ripped off. And I know that you're getting ripped off because I'm one of the people who has benefited from-

[laughs]

...this system that has ripped you off. And basically every cop needs a criminal. And, uh, I, I know how fucked up this is because it's helped me. And so I'm gonna go in there and, like, fuck it up on your behalf." And it, it really resonated with people. And he's been, you know, it's changed over time, but not that much. He's been making sort of a version of that argument-

Mm-hmm

...for the last 10 years.

He's Robin Hooding the system from the inside. He's, he's like anonymous, but for getting, uh, people of color out of the country, I guess.

Yeah, it's, [laughs] um, uh-

[laughs]

I mean, the retribution and the, the kind of like, um, homicidal, um, ethos has, um, intruded, um, a lot and, and, uh, it's, it's taken over depending on what's happening in his life or in the news. But that general idea of like, "This is an unfair place, and it's benefited me that it is unfair, but I know the ins and outs of the unfairness, and so I'm your guy to help-

Mm-hmm

...make it unfair for you [laughs] in a way that benefits you."

Like, like when a, when a startup hires a, a, an ex-hacker to, to un-hack, you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

Or the, or a casino hires an ex-gambling cheater or something like that to do it.

Yeah.

That's what Trump's doing.

Every cop needs a criminal. Yeah.

Every cop needs a criminal. That's a, that's a great Lana song title right there.

[laughs] It's the Rolling Stones.

[laughs]

S- they're cool too.

[laughs]

Love those guys.

[laughs]

I didn't know that. Chris, did you know that?

Uh, no. What song?

Uh, I think it's Sympathy for the Devil.

Oh, damn.

I believe you.

We're sleeping on you. I feel like you've got a lot more musical knowledge in there than we, uh, than we realize. I know that you're a big-

I just love the Stones.

Okay, okay.

I just really love the Stones. Um, but I, I just love classic rock in general.

Okay. Um, speaking of Trump, you, you describe, um, sort of in detail when you had a phone conversation with him, and in the, in the book, you sort of write out each letter sound and syllable how he was talking. But then in the audio version of the book, you, you chose not to do-

Like, you didn't know how to do it. Yeah, I, I-

You choose... I mean, I wa-

[laughs]

...I was listening to it yesterday. I was like, I, I wonder if she had a, a conversation or had a thought process of like, do I dictate the dictation, or do I actually do the voice? So I guess this is your chance. Do you, can you do a Trump impression?

Um, what I did, I, I don't know if it worked exactly, but, like, I tried to sort of... He- strange syntax, right? And, um, it's, it's really a, a, a spirit more than it's like a, a, a, a sound to his voice, if that makes sense. And so I just try to, like, reflect something of his attitude or intonation, um, but not do, you know, an actual impression.

Mm-hmm.

But those were, I mean, frankly, the most fun parts of the book to record were, were doing [laughs] doing his-

[laughs]

...his dialogue, um, because it's just, he, his usage of the English language is singular. Like, it's-

[laughs]

He's a master. He's a mas- some would say he's a master.

Um, uh, uh-

Singular is a better word for it.

[laughs] Well, it's just, it's, it's highly unusual. It's, I, I don't know if there's anyone else who, um, utilizes words in the way that he does and, like, the particular rhythm of it. Like, this-

Mm-hmm

...is the thing about standup. Like, I, I love comedy, and a, a lot of my r- writing since I started writing is, is probably informed even more than I realize, um, by comedy, by Carlin or Pryor or, or even Letterman. And, um-

Mm

...I, I'm so interested in sort of Trump the performer and Trump the, in some ways, writer, right? Like, he's someone who comes up with phrases and names-

Mm-hmm [laughs]

...for things. And, um, you know, he's like the most successful cyberbully of all time.

[laughs]

And, um, I'm fascinated by that.

Yeah.

Calling, calling the president a, a cyberbully is cool 'cause it's true.

It's so true, right? Like, it's just, [laughs] he cyberbullied his way, um, to the stars, man. Like, he is just- [laughs]

[laughs]

He, uh-

Do you think at, at this, do you think at this point in his life, at his advanced age and, you know, dementia level-

Mm

...he's still spinning the plates? He's still saying everything off the top of his head? It's not as good as it was, you know, 10 years ago, but he's still saying some amazing shit. At, at a certain point, y- you know, are, are the drugs that they're pumping him up with gonna give out and he's gonna no longer be able to go off script and he'll have to just go kind of where he's just reading the teleprompter?

Well, one of the funny things about him with the teleprompter though is, like, oftentimes, um, if there's a teleprompter at, at an event, like in, in the garden at the White House or, or even at, um, a rally or something-You'll look over to the screen and the text will be paused. It won't be scrolling.

[laughs]

And, um, it's because he's gone off script. But I always wondered if-

[laughs]

... if there was, um... if maybe he was dyslexic or something or had some sort of, um, processing, um, delay, and him going off script was, you know... sometimes when he would read the words, it sounded like he was genuinely reading them for the first time, like there was a, a tone of surprise.

[laughs]

Like, uh, you know, they're saying... "Oh, they're saying this." Like, as if [laughs] and, um-

Right. Like when a podcaster does an ad read for BetterHelp. It's... You could, you could hear it in their voice that they're not, this was not thought out before or premeditated whatsoever.

Yeah. I mean, do you wanna do one? That's an amazing transition for you to do your ad for BetterHelp.

[laughs]

I do agree.

[laughs]

Just give us-

Go pay some bills.

Just one second. Just give us one second.

But, um, I, I... So that could just be an utter lack of preparedness, which, which would make sense, or it could be, um, that, you know, he's, he's processing and sort of going off script in, in service of giving himself a moment to, to collect, uh, his-

Yeah

... the words on the teleprompter. I don't know. Um-

I th- I think that he, he's floating on a level above the written word. I think reading only-

[laughs]

... slows him down, much like a, a Lil Wayne or something like that where-

Mm

... he's on a different plane of thought, you know?

Many people have compared those two. [laughs]

I'm not the first. I won't be the last.

No, that's-

No, no

... how could, how could you avo- how could you avoid that?

History will, will position them side by side, I think.

So that means you're not gonna give us a Trump impression, which is totally fine. I don't, I don't wanna pressure you too hard.

No, I don't think anyone would like that.

[laughs] Okay.

Your heart's, your heart's not in it, so I, I, I understand.

No, my heart's elsewhere.

You've said, you know, you're an an admirer of the comedic greats in standup, um, and I know that you probably fancy yourself an, a enjoyer of interviewers and interviews. Letterman, you know, one of the greats of all time. Do you have an all-time favorite interview or interviewers?

Oh, yeah. I mean, Stern, Cavett. Charlie Rose was sort of not a good interviewer, but the format I, I think was just so good and-

Mm-hmm

... um, it's sort of like Larry King, like the ways that Larry King was not a good interviewer were also what made him, to my mind anyway, um, amazing. Like, he just would blurt out the question that occurred to him. You know, it, it maybe might be really pedestrian or, you know, really, um, a non sequitur. Um, and I always felt like that kept it exciting. Um-

Mm-hmm

... but yeah, I just, I, I really love, uh, Howard Stern. Um, really love Dick Cavett. There's a just amazing archive of, of Dick Cavett interviews. Um-

Are those on YouTube?

Yeah, mostly, I think.

I'm sure, yeah.

You can, you can watch Dick Cavett show on Tubi.

Oh, there we go.

[laughs]

There, there we go. [laughs]

Is it really on Tubi?

Uh, that's what Google says. That's what Google says.

[laughs]

I b- I believe that. I believe that.

Um, and I, I watch old Carson interviews and I, I... It's so interesting, like, what late night used to be. Um-

Oh, yeah

... and, uh, and I love, I... Letterman, I would... Current day Letterman an incredible interviewer, but the [audio cuts out] love watching the [audio cuts out]

Yeah

... Letterman interviews from, from the Late Night Show.

Are you d- are you doing any TV for this book?

Um, I don't know what I'm doing.

[laughs]

I've not d- I've not, uh, made decisions on that.

Smart. Wow, you, you, you let go and let God.

Yeah, I'm, you know, detached from the outcome.

Um, are there any modern interviewers, podcasts perhaps that you are listening to or do you stay out of that mess?

I, yeah, I listen to a lot of audiobooks. Um, I don't, I don't listen to a ton of podcasts, but, um, you know, I, I, I love Joe Rogan. I love, um, Talk Easy and-

Mm-hmm

... I love Meghan McCain. I think she's a great, great interviewer. Um, but mostly I listen to audiobooks and, like, if I'm gonna spend time listening to something, I'd rather it be something a little bit more considered. Um-

Sure. Use your time wisely. You only have one life and you're not gonna waste it on-

You're on number th- you're number three?

I'm on-

[laughs] This is my third.

Yeah.

Yeah, this is my third.

So does that mean when you're listening to Rogan you skip the ones about MMA and, uh, bow hunting and you go straight to the interesting shit?

[laughs]

Or do you listen to all of them?

I think that's interesting. [laughs]

Well...

I think that's the interesting shit. No, I-

You, you like the MMA companion episodes where they-

[laughs]

... really get down into what happened in the third round?

It depends. Like, I, like, for instance, like, his... There's an interview with Miley Cyrus that's, like, one of-

That's a great one. I've heard that one.

The, it's-

It's great

... it's excellent. Like, her ability to synthesize her experience and to, to be so self-aware, right?

Yeah.

When you're so practiced in narrativizing your life, right? And, like, you're constantly being asked to do so, um, you could either kind of disassociate and become, like, pretty detached and talk about yourself, uh, as if it's, like, this kind of separate entity, this separate character, or you could, like, go electric like she has, right? And you're fully present, fully in your experience and able to talk about it, um, in, in a way that makes sense and is human. But, um, and, you know, I just w- I was so impressed by, by that. Um, but you've gotta get on someone's wavelength to interview them in that way.

Mm-hmm.

Right? Like, uh, think probably his style had as much to do with the success of that, um, as, as her ability to, um, synthesize her experience did. Um, so I, I thought that was pretty remarkable. I love Rick Rubin. Um, I guess I just think he, he provides a lot of-

All right, that's a, that's a bridge too far.

[laughs]

[laughs] But I think he just provides a lot of space. Like, he doesn't intrude too much as his-

Well, that's his, that's his whole fucking game

One could argue he-

Yeah, he does

... only provides space

[laughs]

[laughs]

But it's an effective technique, right? It's like if you go-

It is

... you sit down with a shrink, and the shrink-

It is

... kind of, you're in that contest to see who speaks first. [laughs]

Mm-hmm.

And, um, you know, sometimes it yields, uh-

Yeah

... I think really interesting disclosures.

The old, oldest trick in the book, ice 'em out. It's an ice-off.

Ice 'em out. So what is your plan moving forward? Are we- do we think this Vanity Fair thing's gonna stick? How do you feel about it?

[laughs] Um, I mean, I'm west coast editor of Vanity Fair. You should check out our, uh, Hollywood issue, which is, uh, available now.

Oh, I've got it, I've got it in front of me. Don't worry.

I was like, I can't believe she's juggling this scandal, this book, and the VF Hollywood issue with A$AP Rocky wearing socks on the beach. How does she do it?

Isn't that a beautiful photo?

I love the photos.

Of course.

I love the pictures. I mean, I think the best thing I saw was like, "Why are there no women?" And I was like, do you guys not know that they've done this for like 30 years this way?

[laughs]

That's just kinda like, it was-

It's the 32nd-

That was one of the biggest responses

... [laughs] it's the 32nd, um, annual Hollywood issue, and, um, there's a lot of really, really good stuff in there.

What stories did you work on?

Um, I've worked on a bunch. I, um, an excerpt from the book is in there, um, and, and along with a painting by Isabel Braerman that's actually at Art Basel today, um, at a Jeffrey Deitch's show there. Um, and it's called the, uh, The Great American Nude, the show. And, um, I worked on, uh, there's a story about Kazzy David and her fauns, uh-

Mm

... in Hollywood, and, um, Julie Weiner and, uh, her, um, her kind of bicoastal sartorial existence. Uh, Otessa Moshfegh, the cover story, um, about, um, Hollywood's, uh, new crop of male movie stars. Um, Vera Papasova on, um, biohacking and, um, the, like obsession with purifying your blood. Um, there are a ton of great stories in there. Um-

Oh. This is all great West Coast content right here.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, there's a lot out here.

Shout out to our friend of, friend of the show, Kazzy David and her fauns.

[laughs]

No, I mean, look, I, I, I hope it all works out, and, um, I, I think you have a very, um, you have a great attitude I have to say, and I don't know if I would be in the same position. So.

Well, someone's gotta have a good attitude. [laughs]

Yeah, it ain't, it ain't us, that's for fucking sure. It ain't us. But-

Thank you. [laughs] That's very nice

Um, last question. We, we always put a song at the end of each episode. If I don't add Jailbait, what Lana song or Britney song should I use?

Ooh. Um...

Or Miley. Miley Malibu is in the contention, you know, who knows?

[laughs] Uh, hmm. Lana, Heroin.

Okay. Bravo.

All right. I was hoping you were gonna go ketamine, but heroin's fine.

[laughs]

[laughs]

Okay, well-

Later. Maybe later

... maybe, yeah, for the third act.

[laughs]

Okay. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us. We appreciate it.

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Of course, we appreciate it. We'll see you soon.

Ciao.

Okay, bye.

Really changed. Babe, babe. It's hot, hot. Something 'bout this city. Don't know what it is. It makes my head get crazy. Oh. Makes me feel like I'm a kitchen appliance.

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