878. - Roddy Bottum

All right, uh, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian, and they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world, and they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you?

We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place.

All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. [upbeat music] How Long Gone, it is your fearless co-host Chris Black. I'm, um, in Chicago, Jason, and there's hella snow on the ground, which I was only mentally prepared for.

[laughs] You were o- well, I mean, how else could you really prepare for it? I guess you could-

Physically I wasn't ready to brace for, you know, like a f- like I'm wearing boots, you know, but, you know, the step in the snow. This is something you don't experience that much, thank God.

No.

You're lucky.

No, not really. Yeah, I mean, I, uh, I chose not to go to Chicago today, but that's just on me, you know? [laughs]

[laughs] I j- I mean, in life in general you've, you've been able to avoid snow by living in Los Angeles, which is, you know, I... Has it ever snowed there?

Uh, not actual real snow. I mean, there's, there's been times where I was in elementary school and the teacher will be like, "It's snowing," and then everyone screams and runs outside, but then, you know, there'll be one-

[laughs] Sure. Sure, sure

... one single snowflake that you could watch-

[laughs]

... turn-

Yeah, yeah

... to, uh, to water in front of your eyes.

I- immediately as soon as it touches the ground. But I'm staying, so-

Oh, it doesn't make the ground, honey

... I'm staying at a very, uh, an undisclosed hotel that Katie loves, and so the, the band is staying here. I was like, "Sure, I'll be a team player." And just to be, you know... I- you know, Jason, I'm not as much of a snob as you even though I get a bad rap, but I'm, I'm sitting, I'm sitting in my room-

Are you, are you a team player or are you a cosplayer?

Both. Both. Depending on the situation, I'm both. I just thought it would be funny, you know, whatever.

Mm-hmm.

And I, I get here and I was joking that I needed Jimmy John's for lunch to salve my, you know, my travel day, and I'm s- this hotel is situated in something I've never seen before. It's almost like they plopped a three-star hotel in a food court.

Hmm.

So I'm looking out the window and it's Five Guys-

Oh, sorry. Five Guys the restaurant, not, not just five guys.

There's also five guys, actually, but they're all in Moose-

Oh

... they're in Moose Knuckles jackets in, in front of the Five Guys. So we got Five Guys, we got Buffalo Wild Wings, we got Auntie Annie's, we got Starbucks, Jimmy John's, Smoothie King, Panda Express, Schlotzky's Deli, as well as a store I've never heard of before, Scrub Depot-

[laughs]

... where you get all of your scrubs if you work in the medical field.

[laughs] S-

It's one of the most twisted things I've ever seen. [laughs]

Scrub Depot.

That's where you found your man. [laughs] At, over at Scrub Depot.

[laughs] You a fool for that one.

[laughs]

Okay. So I mean, that is interesting because whenever we stay in Chicago, whe- whenever you're traveling with me, we're, we like to be over at the, uh, the Waldorf in there-

Yeah

... and there is a Jimmy John's in the subfloor of that location, remember?

That's, that's also, d- you're right, actually, and I did forget. This one I had, I had to traipse outside, um, through a small amount of snow-

Mm-hmm

... um, to get my-

When we're over at the, when I'm over at the, at the Waldorf, you know, you look out the window, oh, there's the Bottega store, there's the Prada store, there's this and that. Go around the corner and that's Joe & the Juice. We'll get a little tuna melt, you know?

Sorry, Joe & the J- Joe & the Juice is, uh, that's o- on Starbucks level. Let's not, let's not put Joe & the Juice at the same level-

[laughs]

... as designer stores in the Gold Coast. Let's be respectful.

I think, I think healthy travelers know that Joe & the Juice is a great-

Bro, Joe & the Juice-

... resource

... Joe & the Juice is one of the worst. I mean-

Just j- I mean, ask Diplo. I mean, it, it, ob- obviously I w- I don't want to go there, but if, if it's that or Five Guys, a Jimmy John's, Panda Express, whatever-

Oh, Jimmy John's 100 times over 100.

I know, but if you want, if you wanna be a healthy, healthy eater you can go to Jimmy John.

What's healthy, what's healthy about Joe & the Juice?

You can get smoothies, juices, coffees, alternative milks. You can get protein wraps.

I don't think those juices, those j- [laughs] those juices don't feel like juice to me, if you know what I'm saying. It feels more like mixers from the club.

No, this shit is Scandinavian in origin. They don't play with that shit, bro.

[laughs] Hey, it is Scandinavian by blood and they do not play with that shit, bro. [laughs]

Sh- show me the lie, bro. Show me the lie.

That's true. I haven't pulled up the Carfax on, on Joe & the Juice to be, to be completely fair.

And obviously, like I said, this is a, this is a desperate traveler's resource.

This is when we're, yeah, this is when under duress.

But if, I mean, I, I watched a little interview or something like that with, with friend of the show Diplo, and he said when he's traveling that's what he does. He hits the little Joe & the Juice. He can get a little something something.

Oh, great. Well, you know-

Put something clean in the stomach, you know?

Whatever Diplo's doing is what I wanna be doing, 'cause he's rich and he's stayed out of jail. So I guess I'm, I'm gonna take a second look at Joe & the Juice, to be honest.

He eats a lot of avocados-

This- [laughs]

... for his complexion.

This is, I would, I... If he would chill out on the run clubs he'd be the perfect guy, but he just can't help himself.

He-

You know what I mean?

I mean, everyone has w- that one little thing that ruins them.

Totally. Totally. We're not, I'm not above it. I'm not above it. I've been seeing all these, these year-end lists have been coming out, Jason. They've been trickling out.

Yeah.

It is that perfect combination of things I really like, things I don't like, and things I've absolutely never heard of.

Mm-hmm.

Which is kind of, that to me makes up the perfect list. I don't know how you feel.

I agree with you on that, but I guess when I was maybe, you know, under 33 years old, the amount of things on those lists that I didn't know were, were closer to zero than they are now.

Yeah, but I think it's gotten, I think everything's gotten a little crazier.

What do you mean by that?

I just mean there's a lot more music than there was 10 years ago, 15 years ago.

Yeah. Le- less, less of the monoculture. When you, when you see the Pitchfork list, you can expect, you know, the standard, the Arcade Fires and your Beach Houses and your this and your that, and then one or two curve balls.

Yeah

You know, like, oh, th- you did a really freaky Erykah Badu album that nobody ever knew it even came out, but they give it number four. You know, that kind of thing.

Yeah. It feels a little more-

But now, now it's so, now it's, it truly is everything, and you have to do one album or one song or one jacket or one book out of every category. There's just too many categories now, huh?

Yeah, there's way too many fucking categories. That's a, that's a good way to put it. I've learned about some new stuff, um, and I've also learned that the, the, the passion people have for the band Geese is something that I wish, um, I could inspire in anyone, and I don't think I'm ever going to achieve that in my adult life. But-

What is, what is it about these geese, huh? It, I mean, like I said before, it, it reminds me of early Radiohead fever.

Yeah. No, no, I, I don't, I don't know what it is necessarily. I, I just think that... Also, I saw that somebody was saying Smurfs has a d- a d- one of the members of Smurfs has a dad that's in NATO, [laughs] I guess.

Second, second NATO reference of, uh, on the pod this week.

Which I d- which I wasn't aware of. I didn't do any research on that. I just saw that in a tweet, and I thought that was a pretty funny... Like, that, that's not, I don't know what that's supposed to signify. Is that, like, an, are they trying to make nepo claims? Because that's not really... [laughs] That, that's a little different.

Yeah, that could be a reverse nepo, actually. Who knows?

That could work. I mean, that-

That's something that you'd want to per- perhaps hide. But I guess it, I know they're from, uh, I think they're from Copenhagen.

I think they're from Norwa- I feel like they're from Oslo. But whatever, they're Scandinavian.

They up in there, so you know.

Like Joe and the Juice, they're, they're Scandinavian blood.

[laughs] Yeah, they're, uh, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I know that NATO, well, I don't know really what they're doing up in there. Helping out Ukraine.

I don't know what... Let me-

Testing out quantum technologies in Copenhagen. I'm, I'm googling.

Smurfs dad NATO.

There's a NATO accelerator test site.

[laughs]

Don't worry.

Yeah, all right.

You already know what the business is.

Uh, Katarina Stol- Stoltenberg is the daughter of Norwegian politician and former NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg.

Mm-hmm.

Okay. All right. Well, I mean-

She said, "You can have whatever synth you want."

[laughs] I don't know.

We're not getting a new 808, we're getting the original.

[laughs] I like it, though, 'cause you immediately, people, you look at tweets, like Sophie Kemp, there's a tweet from a month ago that says, "I love that the girl in Smurfs dad controls NATO."

[laughs]

You see how quickly, do you see how quickly this spins out of control?

Yeah.

He's the mini- he, he's the Minister of Finance.

[laughs]

You know, that's not really, I don't know if that's controlling NATO necessarily, but it's a fun little tidbit.

He's, he's not, uh, he's not picking, uh, enemies out of the sky.

No. No, no, no, no. He's, he's definitely at a desk wearing a suit. It's not... But I, I love that this is what people really choose to get worked up about, you know? And, and the-

Mm

... and the sort of... Also, people like to get worked up about the sort of technicality of things, where it's like, "Well, that was actually released in December of 2024."

[laughs]

"So can it count?" A- and it's, it's once again, it's, it's-

Meanwhile, Kendrick Lamar is up for Best New Artist this year.

[laughs]

And, uh, his new record, Damn, is up for-

[laughs]

... Album of the Year.

Album of the Year. Once again, Damn is coming, coming through.

[laughs]

Yeah, I, I don't really, I don't really understand how that stuff works, but it, it reminds me of when, like, there was a kid in your grade that was a little older than you 'cause he, you know, the cutoff was, was-

Yeah

... was sort of, you know, pulled out of the, it doesn't really make a lot of sense necessarily, but it has to exist, I guess. Feels similar to that, where I'm not gonna-

With so many things

... I'm not gonna judge. You know, I'm not gonna judge these rules. I don't make them. I don't, I don't work at Stereogum or Pitchfork, so I don't really care.

There are no more rules anymore. That's what's dope about media. Uh, let's see here.

[laughs]

We're, we're gonna go to war with Venezuela maybe soon, but more importantly, Netflix has a Diddy docuseries coming out today.

I don't, I, I weirdly could not care less about it for some reason.

You're still gonna watch it, though.

Nah, I don't think I will. I don't ca- I don't really watch stuff like that. Like, I don't care. I, I watched Kevin Hart's stand-up special, um, because I hate myself.

What? [laughs]

But I, but I, yeah, I don't know.

Okay, you don't have a l- a little leg to stand on.

Uh, I don't.

Why did you watch that? It's quiet for Lil Kev.

I find him-

It's cold

... really annoying. I gotta say, he had a pretty good pair of pants on. I was surprised, 'cause I didn't know they made them in his size. Um, but it's a nice pair of pants.

[laughs]

But no, I don't, it's not funny. I don't know. I just do. 'Cause that to me, like a Diddy thing from a, a, from, it, like 50 Cent making a spite doc is, obviously I respect it from a pettiness level. There's, there's-

Mm-hmm

... no one better at it, but it doesn't make me wanna actually watch it because I don't care what happens. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't kn- I don't care what information is there-

Yeah

... because I don't care about Diddy at all. I don't really care anymore. It's over.

But, you know, during these trying times when we'll watch documentaries about just truly any old bullshit, as long as it's a captivating, well-made doc, you know, we'll watch a, a documentary about a meth head in Florida who has tigers or whatever.

But that's more captivating because that's not a story I already sorta know. You know what I mean? It's, like, so out of the blue that it feels like that's why it captures-

I, I, I also love, I love it when a story, uh, I don't know how a story is going to end, and we know how the Diddy story is probably going to end based on living, uh, in current, present time and everything. But, you know, hopefully 50 doesn't let us down. I, I know that there's, there's a NS, Variety Magazine says an NSFW interview... with a gigolo who did freak offs for eight years, details his-

[laughs] Eight years? Damn, bro

... details his sexual marathons, paying tribute to Biggie's death.

Whoa. Nothing says pay tribute to my death more like a freak off. All right, our guest. We have a guest today.

[laughs]

Um, our, our Roddy Bottum is joining us. Uh, his book, The Royal We, is out now everywhere. Uh, you might know him from his musical endeavors. He was in Faith No More. He's put out a bunch of stuff. He scored a bunch of things as well.

Imperial Teen.

Let's tap in, let's tap in with Roddy and see what's really good. [electronic tone] This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian, Stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's, uh, it's trying to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world, and I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions.

A lot of questions, but how often? 'Cause we do this podcast three times a week, and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do?

Three times a week, and I, I, I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe gonna be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess.

The Guardian is not some billionaire-owned platform. They're not afraid to say what they wanna say, brother.

Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in, in what, uh, journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at, at, uh, Stateside.

Mm-hmm.

But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch on YouTube. It's three times a week, and, and who couldn't use more news? You know, especially, especially when it's, when it's not, you know, from here, let's say.

[laughs]

Give, give it a, give it a listen. Give it a listen. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by our best friends at BetterHelp. Jason, we're, we're deep into May, which is, uh, Mental Health Awareness Month, and this is just a reminder that whatever you're going through, you don't have to go through it alone. Life is a damn journey. Some days feel good and others feel overwhelming. Whatever's keeping you up at night, it's easy to feel like you have to figure it all out on your own. But the truth is, no one has all the answers. Well... And no journey should be alone. Having someone with you to listen, to understand, and to support you can really make all the difference.

I agree, Chris, and sometimes, you know, it, it's nice to be talking to somebody even if they're not even listening, even if you don't even get to s- be in the same room with them because what you're doing is you're admitting these things to yourself, and that's the most, that's the most rewarding thing you can do sometimes. So you can have a great little therapy sesh with your perfect therapist at BetterHelp. Choosing between over 30,000 people so you can get the right one just for you. Over 6 million people globally are using it, and you know, have some breakthroughs. Go on that walk after your BetterHelp sesh, you know, whatever it might be. Get a nice little lunch all for yourself, maybe a non-alcoholic kombucha, and just think and be like, "Damn, I really am him." You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have somebody with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/howlong. That is better H-E-L-P .com/howlong.

How are you guys?

We're good. I, I just, um, sorry I was stuck on the tarmac at beautiful O'Hare. So thank you for being, uh, able to adjust by one hour. I appreciate it.

Oh, yeah. No problem. What was going on in Chicago?

Um, I'm here for a show. Um, but I guess there was a plane that just refused to leave its gate, you know? A tale as old as time. Um, but-

[laughs]

... there's snow on the ground, so I'm, I, I feel, I feel like I'm in winter mode now. I've switched off. I forgot my earmuffs, but you know, here we are.

So you're in Chicago now, Chris?

That's right. I'm in Chicago as we speak. You can't tell by the depressing, uh, low-end hotel decor?

Well, I can tell it's a hotel, but I can't get any city-

[laughs]

... vibe from it. How about you, Jason? Where are you at?

I'm at home in Glendale, California.

Glendale, nice.

Well, are you in New York?

No. You know where I am? It's crazy. I'm in Provincetown. Do you guys know what that is?

Yeah, we're, we're honorary gays.

Yeah.

[laughs]

Despite our heterosexuality, we are very familiar with Provincetown.

You're aware of Provincetown, 'cause it is very gay. For you listeners who don't know, it's the tip, tippity tip of the very end of Cape Cod.

Did you have to say tippity tip?

This is the stretch.

[laughs]

Yeah. Very, very tip. Just the end.

So okay, so they get the Cape Cod and they stretch the skin out-

[laughs]

... and then it just gets to the very tippity tip top.

Yeah, right where there's that slit.

[laughs]

[laughs]

It's like, uh, at the very end, and it's a very gay town. It's got a very gay history. It's got a very queer sort of, uh, heritage to it. It's where a lot of, like, theater people came in, like, in early 1900s.

Yes.

People came up here from, like, New York City and, like-

Hold on, you're tell- hold on, you're tell- you're telling me there were gay guys in the early 1900s?

Well, yeah, closeted, but they were here.

[laughs]

And Eugene O'Neill put on his very verse, first play here, and then there's just a crazy collection of weirdos that come here, like, over the course of, uh-

Mm-hmm

We've been talking about Provincetown a lot because we were told that we should do a show, a How Long Gone show, at The Dick Dock.

Oh, hell yeah. [laughs]

And I... [laughs] And that that would be fun.

Really good idea. [laughs]

And then if several people were like, "We'll help you set that up and then get you out of there before sundown," you know what I mean?

[laughs]

So everything s- everything stays above board.

Yeah. It's a genius idea. I've seen performances down there. The Dick Dock, for those of you out there who don't know what it is-

[laughs]

... it's underneath this, it's a literal, like, space underneath a dock un- on the sand at the water where guys go and get it on. And it's-

Yes

... so renowned and it's so, like, such a thing.

You wanna get it on? [laughs]

Yeah, you can look it up on Google Maps.

Oh, okay.

Like, it's there on Google Maps.

Okay.

It'll just show you where to go.

Wow, Dick D- it co- it comes up as Dick Dock? Or it may be something else.

As The Dick Dock.

That's cool.

The Dick Dock.

That's-

Yeah

... I'm glad that Google didn't block that or censor it.

Right?

But you're, you're able, you've been there enough times, you're able to get to The Dick Dock without having to type it into your Waze or drop a pin, right? You know by-

I know exactly-

... by smell?

I know exactly where it is, yes.

[laughs]

But it gets so crazy down there. Like, I don't really go there.

[laughs]

I have a boyfriend, so I don't really, like, go there too much, but I have been there before. But, uh, my friend was here last summer.

It ain't a crime to look, Roddy. It ain't a crime to look.

Yeah. I mean, I'll go there. I will look.

I mean, I go

But my friend was there last, uh, summer, and he was, like, texting me from there, and I was like, "Just like, how many guys are down there right now?" It was like 11:00 at night, like, on a Thursday, and he's like, "All right, I'm gonna, um, walk the course of the dick dock and count."

[laughs]

And there were over 90 dudes down in there, like, getting their dick sucked.

[laughs]

90 men, just on a Thursday night.

It was a dick-sucking factory.

That's, that's actually overwhelming, to the point where I, I feel like that could-

Yeah

... turn some users off maybe, that it's too pa- It's like, it's like going to a movie theater and you can't find a seat, you know?

[laughs]

It's part of that. So many options, though. So many options.

That's, that's a good point.

[laughs]

I guess you can go do your shopping, let's say.

Yeah, 'cause it reminds me of, like, obviously the proximity to the water. It reminds me of, like, the surf report. You know, I got a little cam set up. You know, "Oh, it's too busy out there, I'm gonna wait until later, till it dies down." But maybe with the, in the dick-sucking community, it's kind of like a little more people-

[laughs]

More the merrier

... the better.

The more the merrier.

Like, we're, we're, we're way-

Yeah

... beyond privacy at this point at the dick dock, right?

For sure. Max it out. No one's being shy, you know?

No, I... That, yeah, that, that is not something your community's necessarily known for is shyness.

No, it's a, it's a free-for-all. But it's really pretty here. You guys should come here. Like, Provincetown is so great. Over the summer it's great.

I want... I've, I've always wanted to go, but I guess, is, what is the... Where do you think I would be the most happy, in Provincetown or Fire Island? Based on-

Provincetown

... knowing me for the last five minutes. Okay.

Provincetown is more of like a, a... It's definitely like you're separated from the rest of the world.

Yeah.

Like, Fire Island is very close. You're pretty much still kind of in New York City.

Yeah.

And you only get, like, that demographic, and it's very close, and you feel like, yeah, you're in the city pretty much. Provincetown is very isolated. It's really at the end, end, end of the world, so to speak.

You gotta want it.

Yeah.

How long does it take to get there from New York?

I mean, that's the catch, Chris. It's, like, five and a half, six hours' drive.

Okay. Can we fly?

I mean, that, that's Glendale to San Francisco. No biggie.

Yeah, yeah. You can fly, but it's like, um, they're tiny little planes. You know those little, like, six-seaters that are so scary?

That's... Well, Ro- Roddy, that's how I wanna die, so I'm kinda trying to take any opportunity I can to get on something that, of that size.

Okay.

If, if it-

You can do that

... it doesn't come up that often.

[laughs]

It doesn't come up that often, so I have to take the opportunities-

Yeah

... you know, when they present themselves.

When, when you die in a plane crash, when they find out it was headed to P-town, that's gonna be, what a heavenly way to die, Chris.

I'm not gonna beat the, the allegations if I die on the way to P-town in a plane.

Oh my God, yeah, the speculation and the rumors.

[laughs]

Mm-hmm.

"Where was he going? P-town."

Mm-hmm.

"He was on his way to P-town."

On his way to P... Well, how, you've been going there, I assume, for, for decades.

Not so long. Like, I grew up in California and I moved here in, like, uh, to the East Coast in, like, 2010, and I started coming up here then. And then, like, during the pandemic my boyfriend and I got a place up here, and he started a store up here. So really we come up just for the summertimes, basically.

Yeah.

Um, he started a really cute boutique sort of, uh, souvenir store here. So we come up-

What is he ped- what is he peddling at the boutique? What kind of wares?

He makes shirts and hats and sweatshirts and really tasty, like, clothing stuff.

Okay.

And he sells it in this really adorable tiny store. It's called The Old Baby. And it's really nice. But we usually, we come up for just, like, uh, the summer usually. But we're moving in New York, so we're kind of biding time until the place that we move into in New York is done. So we're up here for the winter, which is kind of a stretch.

You're, you're saying-

Mm

... it's a, is, is everything closed type, like-

Oh my God, so fucking tight.

[laughs]

It's so, it's so boring. You can't imagine.

So fucking tight. Yeah, I mean, even Sal, the, the famous restaurant Sal's in P-town, they o- they famously leave and then come to LA now the last couple years.

Yeah. Have you been to the one in Los Angeles, Jason?

Yeah.

I've been a handful of times, yeah. She's, uh-

You like it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a g- it's a great vibe. You know, just you walk in, everyone knows your name, nobody is straight except me. The martinis are strong. The pasta's flowing. Everyone, you know, cash only.

They're cool.

You gotta call to make a res. It's a good vibe. I like it a lot.

They're cool. I like those people. Siobhan is the boss woman.

Yeah.

I'm gonna t- say something that I shouldn't, but I wanna say it anyway. It's fascinating. It's, like, a thing over the summer, people who dine at Sal's in the summertime in Provincetown, they don't pay for their meals if they live here.

You mean, y- you mean that's the, the un- the trade if you're, like, a real, a real Provincetown resident?

Yeah.

This is your canteen.

Yeah. And for a while, for a while we were paying and stuff, and we were like, "What's up? What's up?" But I think we kinda crossed the line and we're kinda recognized-

Oh, congratulations. That's big

... right now as such, as locals.

That's big. That's big.

Yeah. It's, it's huge.

[laughs] Wow. I mean, I've never paid there thanks to our friends at Purple PR, but it's for different reasons I guess. Um-

What's that mean? What's Purple PR?

It's j- it's just a, a PR agency that we're friends with, but they happen to represent that restaurant. And, and our dear friend Stevie, who's probably listening to this right now, is always generous with inviting us over for, you know, fabulous birthday dinners and things like that over at Sal's.

Damn, okay braggar. [laughs]

I mean, you're, you're bragging too. We're, we're both getting free clams, just two different ways to get there, brother.

Well, yeah, but I feel like mine is kinda earned. Like, I earned the status of mine. What's the... Purple PR?

[laughs]

What, what's the benefit? Well, how are you... W- well, what are they... How do you get that?

I'm a mi-

I want this-

I'm a, I'm a micro-influencer, Roddy, so when I go there I'll talk about it on this beautiful podcast, post a photo on my Instagram.

Someone's getting paid, it's just not us or the restaurant.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? It's, it's, it's-

No, it makes sense.

Yeah. I wanna know how you, a homeowner, uh, is able to go into a small local business and refuse to pay them money.

[laughs]

What's up with that, Roddy?

You're right. I'm really, honestly, it's just on the coattails of my boyfriend and his store basically.

Well, he's a small-

Okay

... he's a small business owner in the area as well.

Yeah.

So it feels like-

'Cause this happened 'cause we went together and we got, like, the treatment. It was so great. And then I went again later-By myself

They forgot your ass, didn't they? They didn't know who you were

Nothing.

[laughs]

Nothing.

Imperial Tea nothing? Okay. [laughs]

[laughs]

I like your guys' podcast. I'd never heard it before. I started listening to it after we talked, Chris. I listened to a bunch of episodes. It was really fun.

Mm.

Oh, great. I'm sure you had some friends in the mix probably over the, over the years.

I did. I started out listening to theirs, but then I really like the two of you talking. It's really fun. You guys have a good chemistry.

Hey, thank you. See, you're a real head. Thank you for saying that. That's important.

Do you guys fight a lot or you get along just, like, famously all the time?

We don't fi- [laughs] We've never got in a fist- we've never got in a fist fight actually, which is good for both of us I think.

Well, I didn't mean that, but is there any, like, passive aggressive behavior or anything like that? Or like-

Oh, yeah, definitely. Jason's the king of passive aggressive.

Oh, wow. [laughs]

You should ask his wife about it.

Yeah.

I thought I got it bad and then he got married.

Yeah. I'm a bomb dropper.

That's cool.

I'm- [laughs]

But I like your conversations. It's really fun to, like, tap into, like, people who are friends and are just chatting. It's really fun to sit on the sidelines of that. Like, I did listen to a bunch of, like, um, guest shows, you know, that were fun, but then I kinda like, yeah, I like your, uh, camaraderie. I like the, the talk between the two of you. Yeah.

Thank you. Thank you. That, that's it's a funny, um... That's usually what our friends tell us, or people that we respect- [laughs]

Right

... tell, tell, tell us that. They prefer that.

Yeah, and, and also it, people like to listen to a podcast just to kind of turn off their inner dialogue and all the stuff they gotta worry about every day, and I, I have more fun listening to two people just bullshit and chat about whatever they're doing. It, it could be I went to the gas station and whatever, versus, like, interviewing somebody. You know, it's kind of the same thing every time.

I think so too. Like, I don't really... I don't care much for an agenda, but I do love a cozy place.

Mm.

And you guys are creating that.

[laughs]

You know?

Yeah.

We're gonna steal, we're gonna steal that. How Long Ago on a cozy place.

[laughs]

It's an agenda free-

That's nice

... cozy place

No, no, no, use the whole line. Not an agenda, dot, dot, dot, a cozy place. You're welcome.

[laughs] Ooh.

That's a, that's a freebie. That's a freebie. Thank you for that.

For, for our three sold out nights at the Dick Dock, that'll, that's going on the poster.

[laughs]

Those are limited edition silk screens.

You guys, that is such a fun idea though. Doing it at the Dick Dock would be monumental.

Okay. We're gonna... You know what? We're gonna make this happen.

Yeah.

We're gonna make it happen.

Do.

I have some personal hangups that I'll run by you. As two straight guys going there, is this performance art? Is it gay baiting? It, you know, could it be taken-

As appropriation or something?

The wrong way

Yeah

... by some people, you know? Obviously, I, I think it'll be most people it's, like, funny to just watch a couple of guys hang out and interview some people, and you know, we have an open mind, it's all good. But I've, I've experienced some people who are a little bit turned off by, uh-

I can see that. I could go there. But also, you know, if you, like, embrace it and you have, like, a couple gay guests and you're in the mix, that's fine.

Of course.

Yeah. Also, Jason, if they don't like it they can go fuck themselves. I mean, if we're... I, I don't-

[laughs]

I don't think it's a... I, I understand your-

Mm

... I understand where you're coming from, but at a certain point-

Mm-hmm

... it's like we gotta have, we're having fun. You know? We gotta have fun.

I like your a- I like your attitude.

[laughs]

[laughs]

You're the first person to ever say that, so thank you.

You're very welcome.

[laughs]

[laughs]

He has a notoriously awful attitude, so yeah, it is kind of like that.

So where, so where are you moving in New York? Just a new apartment, same neighborhood? Are we switching the game up?

A new apartment. No, we were in the West Village for a long time. I've been there for almost 15 years. I was on Jane Street. You know where the Jane Street Hotel is? The Jane Hotel?

Of course, of course.

Mm-hmm. Right across the street from there I lived for a long time. And there's this big parking lot next to our building that's been sort of this big, like, empty space between where I lived and the West Side Highway, and it's been dreamy for, like, you know, 10 years. And they started building a high rise in that space.

Mm.

And I have the top floor of my building, so I have the rooftop, which is nice. And it's not just the view that's getting taken away from me, like, by this high rise, but it's the aggression of the build is insane.

Mm.

The aggression of the build is... That's what I'm trying to achieve in the gym, so I get it.

[laughs]

But I know this happened to me on Broome Street too. It's, it's fucking crazy how s- like-

It's so loud-

... cranes and just-

... and noisy, and the dust, and just, like-

Mm-hmm

... so many things. And it just, like, I never thought I would move from that apartment, but I just kind of, like... I don't know. Once we made the decision, like, you know what? We could move from here, it just kinda all-

Mm

... fell into place. So we're moving to, we're moving to Great Street, Bond Street between Lafayette and Bowery, which is amazing.

Wow.

And it's gonna be really nice.

Very. I li- I like this. I'm glad that you live in the... I'm, I'm really glad you didn't say some fucking far-flung part of Brooklyn. I, I'm happy that you're-

Yeah, who's your boyfriend? Bond Street?

[laughs]

Okay.

[laughs] No way, man. That's all me. Joey is my boyfriend.

[laughs]

But, uh, he did, like, he had his eye on Bond Street for a long time. We kind of always look at real estate stuff. And just this crazy, old, weird loft went on the market where this woman lived, a painter, and she passed away, like, three years ago, and her kids owned this space and they were looking to get rid of it. And it's a big, empty space that we kinda have to build up, but it's really beautiful. It's on that street. That street is so nice.

This is the New York, this is the New York dream. I, I don't know what you mean.

I know.

Well, I just remembered-

Yeah

... Daddy got Apple stock early, right?

Daddy did. Did you read the book?

[laughs]

[laughs] Uh, I didn't not read the entire thing, but I, I did pull... I, I did a, a, a large skimming and I, I have a lot of the, the large moving pieces, so-

It's funny that that's one of the pieces that you would pull, the Apple stock.

Say no if it's too much, but are you able to say what year and how much Apple stock you bought?

Well, I'll tell you... Yeah, yeah, yeah, I will. Um, the guys, to your listeners, are talking about in my book, I wrote a book, and the book is very revealing.

[laughs]

There's a lot of stuff in the book that is insane.

It's a memoir style book.

It's a memoir style book. [laughs]

But it's more than a memoir style book. There's so much that I reveal.

You busted wi- Daddy busted wide open.

It really is crazy.

He busted wide open.

Like, I talk about, like, having sex with older men in the bushes when I was, like, 12 years old just for starters.

Mm-hmm. We're gonna get into all that.

Yeah.All right, we can get into all that. But one of the things that, um-

I've got, I've got my bullet points, don't worry

... Jason is talking about. Look, so I was in the band Faith No More, and we had toured for a long, long, long, long, long, long time, and we just toured in the van and toured in the van and toured in the van. And we didn't make any money for a really long time. That's just the way that it went. And at one point we started to get a tiny bit of notoriety, and one Christmas we each got a check, like we had finished our tour and we were going back on tour like soon after, but we each got a check, each of us in the band, for $12,000. Which this was like 19, I don't know, like maybe '91 or something. I'm not good with years. But it was really, uh, a lot of money at the time, $12,000. And I had this insane boyfriend at the time who was, uh... It's kind of a crazy backstory, but like we all were just like crazy scrappy kids in San Francisco with dreadlocks, bicycle messengers, you know, pot smokers. We were just hooligans basically. And we were very provocative kids. And one of the things that we did in that era just to fuck with people was, uh, we would watch the stock market, just 'cause it was the most outlandish, crazy behavior of kids in that sort of realm doing that. Like you didn't imagine, like, "What are these kids... What?" And we would like talk about stocks. [laughs]

Y- yeah, you f- okay, so you were talking about stocks while like squatting, so it felt like counterintuitive.

So, so there's people walking around with like crass patches and just-

[laughs]

... like full San Francisco crust punk.

Exactly.

Like lighting shit on fire, crazy street art.

Yeah.

Taxidermy.

Yeah.

Murder, all this stuff, and you're like-

Survival Research Laboratory, dot, dot, dot.

Right.

So much shit. And we would like, just to provoke and fuck with people, we would talk about, "Yeah, did you hear like, uh, yeah, Microsoft is really doing pretty good this quarter."

[laughs]

Like just to fuck with people. But anyway, that's where we were as kids, just provocuers. And so when I got that $12,000, the boyfriend that I had at the time was like, "Just buy Apple stock with it. Like you're not gonna do anything with the money anyway." We were living together, me and the boyfriend, and we were going on tour soon, and we kind of had enough money to take care of ourselves when we went on tour, so I just bought Apple stock at that point, $12,000 worth.

You, you put it all.

All.

You put it all.

Down, uh, uh, yeah, yeah, we, I put it all on Apple stock. And that was like 1990. So I don't know, I would dot, dot, dot, let the listeners get out their calculators and figure it out. But-

Okay. The, uh, December 31st, 1991 year-end closing price of Apple stock was 40 cents per share.

[laughs]

But also, Jason, it's split a bunch of times, so I'm not s- even really sure-

Yeah, it's split a bunch of times

... how that, how-

Yeah

... uh, accurate-

Right, right now it's at 285, and then-

Yeah

... um, I know it's split many times.

Of all the things you could have done with that money at that age, I'm shocked that this joke, uh, worked out as well as it did. I'm, I'm really happy for you.

Isn't it insane? It's so wild. Like I don't feel bad bragging about it because it's such an outlandish, crazy story. It's like winning the lottery.

Yeah.

It's like, how did that even like... I mean, a lot of my things in my life has, have happened in that same way, but that particular instance-

Hm

... was so insane. And when I was writing my book, you know, a lot of people, like my boyfriend was like, "Are you sure you wanna put that in the book?"

[laughs]

And even the publishers were like, "Are you sure you wanna reveal that?" I was like, "Yes, I do. I wanna reveal that."

I don't, I don't think that's-

It's such a crazy thing

... I don't think that's a bad thing. Yeah, it's a fun story. I don't know. It's not like it's... I, I don't know.

Also, I just checked, Apple stock has split a total of five times, so you know. I would say you could do the math, because I can't, uh, on how all that works. But it, it, it kinda reminds me of the, the artist David Choe and his Facebook stock. Do you know that story?

No.

He traded his, he traded his bad art for stock.

They, um, they, they hired him to paint a mural in the Facebook offices like very early days and they said, you know, "We'll give you, you know, five grand, or we can pay you in stock." And he just took stock randomly, and I think he became al- maybe like a hundred millionaire from that.

It happens so rarely, you know? And it is, it's like winning the lottery.

Yeah.

That's why I kind of felt like fine about talking about it. But it's one of those things, it really just changed my life.

I love that. I love that.

Are you still active in the, in investing and things like that? Are we-

I don't really invest, honestly, Jason. I just like, I just have that stock. I have that Apple stock still. I've chipped away at it.

I don't invest, I just spend.

And I bought like, uh, an apartment in New York at one point and, you know, just stuff like that. But I, yeah, I don't really do stock stuff. And honestly, I really wasn't so into stock back at the time. I wa- I was posing a little bit when I was like-

Sure

... you know, talking stock.

This, no, this is the best case scenario, to make that much bread and be like, "You know what? I don't need to do this again."

There you go.

Like, "I don't need to play the market. I, I figured it out once. That's the best I'm gonna do."

For a while I was. Like I remember I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna get Pepsi stock, 'cause you know why? Pepsi owns Taco Bell, and I love Taco Bell."

[laughs]

But that didn't really pan out.

They say-

That didn't pan out.

They do, they do say only buy stock in things that you support, that you love, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's why I lo- I lost my house on American Apparel, but here we are, you know? [laughs]

Oh, you did?

No, I'm joking. [laughs]

Were you an investor in Amer-

No, I'm joking, I'm joking.

Oh. [laughs]

No, it's funny because my, my wife's dad has like a, a little bit of investing rule of thumb, like if you invest in a company with America in the name, the chances of it ever f- you know, completely shutting down, going bankrupt are low because the government will bail out American Airlines or, you know, any of these larger companies. But then American Apparel is the exception to the rule I guess.

That's interesting.

Dove couldn't get that bailout. [laughs]

Uh, Dove could get it from Trump, but he couldn't have gotten it back when, when he needed it. When he needed it, he couldn't get it.

Is that dude involved in the new American Apparel, or no?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He is.

They, they, he's, he's the man.

Did we talk about this? I went, we went into the store 'cause they reopened the store on Broadway, and it's in the old Topshop. It's fucking huge. It's unbel-

Wow.

Yeah, it's good

... like if you go in there, you're just sorta like, "I can't... It's exactly the same."Like, but it's, the scale is so large and the furnishings are so cheap that it doesn't feel like as sexy as it did obviously the first time around. But the product is good. Like, the actual product-

Mm-hmm

... is, is good.

They make a fine T-shirt.

The product was always good. We always liked that, didn't we?

Yeah, everybody. Oh, yeah, I don't know any person that's like from our general age group and world that didn't wear American Apparel.

That didn't. From a, from a band perspective too, I remember like for a while there we were all like, "Oh yeah, we only use American Apparel for our merch stuff."

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's just the right thing to do.

It's the right thing to do.

Yeah. [laughs]

It's support-

Support men.

We all like it at the time. I liked their briefs too, were super sexy. I don't know if you guys ever went there, but I liked their briefs.

Yeah, I was just gonna ask you, what, what colors were we using for our briefs, Roddy?

So many. There were so many. There was like a lavender that was really fetching.

[laughs]

There was a light brown that was so pretty.

What are we wearing now then? Are we wearing Calvin Klein? Are we traditional or do we-

No, I'm like a boxer guy. I will either go, um, Laf Lauren, Ralph Lauren boxer or Sunspel boxer. How about you guys?

Sunspel, Sunspel's a good, a really good boxer. My wife works at Calvin Klein, so I am Ca- I'm, uh, obligated to wear Calvin Klein.

Oh, nice.

I wear Arc'teryx underwear.

Oh, I don't know that brand. I mean, I know what they are, but I've never seen their underwear. Is it a boxer brief?

Boxer brief, yeah.

It's a, it's a... I would say they're not known for the boxer brief, but it's a sleeper hit.

I just happen to enjoy them. They just fit me perfectly. It's great.

They're, they're like, they're kind of expensive, right?

They're a little, yeah, they're like 30, 40 bucks a pair.

I guess that, I guess that's kinda what everything costs now. Tim wears the Turnbull & Asser. I mean, if you want the-

I do

It's on the higher end, for sure

... Charvet, Turnbull & A- th- those, like, cotton ones for 150, it's a little, you know.

Also, Roddy, Skims. Don't sleep on Skims, Kim Kardashian's underwear company. They make a lot of great-

Not for men, do they?

... low profile boxer briefs. No, they do, they do.

Yeah.

I didn't know that.

Yeah.

It's, it's kind of new.

Oh, yeah.

They're one of our sponsors, the good people at Skims.

They, they'll come, they'll come for anybody. They'll, they'll, they'll come for anyone, men, women, children, non-binary.

We'll try to get a three-pack over to the house, okay, Roddy?

I would love it, but time out. Is Skims really one of your sponsors?

That's right.

Yeah. [laughs]

Yeah, yeah.

That is amazing.

[laughs]

Good work, guys. That's so cool.

Hey, thank you.

Thank you.

I don't even know what to say to that. [laughs]

It's, you know, we've, we've ma- we've accomplished so many of our goals, and when you check Skims off-

Yeah

I think it's because Skims accomplished all of their sales goals in the w- in the women's department, so they said, "You know, we're leaving this money on the table, so, you know, male-centric podcasts are a good way to sell that."

Well, they also, they also gave millions of dollars to the NBA, which is probably a, a-

And Post Malone has a pair of, uh, real tree camo Skim underwear as well, I think.

I could see you in some, I could see you in some real tree.

I might go there.

You might go there?

I might go there. I don't know.

[laughs]

I'm not super Kardashian at this specific moment, but-

Who is?

... I would try it.

Are you saying you've gone through phases where you loved them and now you're at a low point?

[laughs] Well, season four. It was season four.

Yeah. I mean, where she seems to be right now, Kim specifically, is a little bit odd for me. The Trumpy connection is a little bit weird. I do like the show, though.

The show is amazing.

We started watching the show. Oh my God, all of our friends, all the, the whole gay, my gay community is like, "It is the worst." Like-

Yeah, it's awful. [laughs]

... you cannot believe how bad. It is so good.

[laughs]

Right? [upbeat music]

Every time I go to the doctor, I walk out of that bitch feeling dumb. I got no real info. This guy in a white coat just say, "You're fine," you know, "Drink more water."

He knows how to charge my copay.

Exactly.

That's about it.

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[laughs]

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What is a Revolve Man, Jason? It's, oh, funny you ask.

What's a Revolve Man?

It's a r- a place where guys who care about how they look go to shop. Revolve Man is stocked with only the elevated essentials and trend-forward styles from brands like Polo, Ralph Lauren, Solomon, Fear of God Essentials for our hoopers out there, and more. It's not fast fashion and it's not stuffy. It's the sweet spot between looking intentional and not looking like you tried too hard. That's what we're all trying to accomplish out here, Jason. New arrivals drop twice a week with free two-day shipping and next-day options. Plus, returns are genuinely easy.

Genuinely, yeah. It's one of those things, we're all busy. Let's say we got an important dinner coming up at the end of the week. It's Tuesday. You're working every single day. You don't have time to go shopping and try clothes on and blah, blah, blah, or even just browse, you know?Revolve, it's all there. It's all curated for what you want. And then you click buy, you go to bed. Couple of days later, that shows up in packaging that's a little nicer than y- the other places you're buying clothes from, and you've got a nice look for the big night out. And then you're like, "Wait a minute, I don't even have to return this because I enjoy this clothing and I wanna wear it again another time," versus all those dumb other websites. So whether it's a big night out, a wedding, a trip, or you just need something last minute that actually works, Revolve Man always has it. Go to revolveman.com/howlong to shop, and use code HOWLONG for 15% off your order. Free two-day shipping, easy returns. It just makes everything easier. That is revolve.com/howlong, and use the promo code HOWLONG to get 15% off your entire order. Offer ends soon. Don't sleep on it. And you don't need clothes too. You can get just, you know, a cool candle or an incense gift for a baby shower, whatever it is. Revolve.com/howlong.

Oh, sorry. I don't mean the... I don't mean Meet the Kardashians. I mean the, uh, the Ryan Murphy show.

Oh, both of them are bad. The Ryan Murphy show is unbelievable.

[laughs]

On unbelievable levels of ba- like, to the point where-

See, not for me. I love it, love it, love it, love it, love it

... she just came out and said that, you know, she's got, having brain problems. She's like, her, her, you know, the frontal lobe is not firing the way it should. I don't know if you saw this. So people think-

No

... people think it's a setup for some sort of [laughs] new product they're going to release, like a vitamin or s- she's-

I think she's trying to get a little bar exam, you know, a little side-

'Cause she's failed the bar exam a couple times.

I thought she passed-

Yeah

... I thought she passed the bar exam.

Unfortunately, no. She's not licensed in the state of C-

If she fails a third time, I think that's three strikes, you're out.

Oh, wow. Wow.

Or at least she has to wait a lo- another, like, a long amount of time.

I think you have to wait a little bit. Yeah, I think you have to wait a little bit.

Ooh.

A number of years before you can do it. So maybe she's, like, getting the brain scans and saying like, you know-

Yeah

... "I'm gonna c- come to the lawy-

Next time, next time-

... the [laughs] come to the bar with a note from my doctor."

[laughs] Next time I have an off podcast, I'm gonna come back and have a note from my doctor, where I had an MRI, and be like, "Look, there's a hole in the front of my brain, so I wasn't-"

Give me half a bar. I could do so much with just half a bar.

[laughs] That's funny, though. I, I mean, maybe she's onto something. Maybe she's gonna do something with vitamins.

Well, she's... I mean, she's, she did that photo... She famously did the photo shoot with, with Elon's robot, and was clearly-

Yeah

... in the bag with-

She's done a lot of robot stuff

... so there could be so- yeah, I feel like there's gonna be something in the robot, vitamin, brainwave-

Well, Elon does the Neuralink.

That's, yeah.

What if Kim Kardashian is the first person to have a hole drilled in her skull, and then having Elon's microchip inserted-

It's not out of the question

... like, and pass the bar?

Or some sort, some so- some sort of mushroom something maybe might be in the m- in the-

Mm

... in the works.

Reishi and lion's mane are in play. Absolutely.

[laughs] Yeah.

Yeah.

There's definitely some lion's mane in play. [laughs]

Yeah. [laughs]

Okay. Um, I wa- I wanna go back a little bit to the early LA days. I know you were born in LA and then moved when you were a teenager to San Francisco. A little pull quote that I pulled, you mentioned, uh, "Los Angeles is a horrible place for a child." And do you still feel that way? Has it gotten worse?

It was kind of a cheeky way of writing about Los Angeles. But, like, when I moved-

Of course. Of course

... out of Los Angeles when I was, like, 17, I was so over it. Like, growing up in that environment with, like, what I was saying in the book was, like, day after day after day of sun and, you know, the mundanity of that. And also coupled sort of with the entertainment industry and just sort of this allure of what Los Angeles is to the rest of the world in terms of, like, entertainment. And, like, back when I was a kid, it was like, "Tanned and pretty and blonde."

Mm-hmm.

It was just, like, couldn't be further away from where I wanted to go with my life as a young 17-year-old, and I was trying to sort of embody that sort of, like, uh, mind ethic when I was writing about Los Angeles. Uh, I, I love Los Angeles, and I go there still, but, um, wow, Los Angeles is super dark right now, you know?

[laughs]

I spent some time there just recently. Just a couple weeks ago, I was there. I did my book thing there. And it's sort of like, I feel like it's sort of, like, creeping a little bit out of the darkness, but, like, just so much has happened. The fires, you know? And I was there specifically when the ice thing was kicking off, you know? And that started, and it was just like, "Wow."

Mm-hmm.

I mean, we've experienced so many decades of Los Angeles just being this place of glory, you know? And especially, you know, people in New York, they love to talk about how, like, people have moved to Los Angeles and just, like, the benefits of that. "Oh, it's so great. There's so much space, and it's just so..." But the classic line, "It's just so easy. It's just so easy."

And the produce.

And suddenly we're un- we're in this era right now where it's not. It's really, really dark. Like, the, the homeless situation is just so intense, and the ice thing is so fucked up. It's, uh, I... Yeah, m- what I'm getting to say, I think, is just, like, Los Angeles right now, uh, deserves our compassion.

Mm.

That's where I'm coming from.

Thank you.

And I, I do love it. My best friends are there, and I still, you know, I still love it there, but it's-

But doesn't every, doesn't every city go through this f- you know, kind of the ups and downs?

I don't know. Like, Los Angeles had ups-

Like, I mean, you could... You lived in, you lived in-

... higher than any other ups. Like, people-

That's probably true

... always regarded it as just, like, this mecca, you know? So it had that, and the downs, where we are right now, is really, really low.

Yeah.

You've got to admit, Chris.

But you... No, no, I, I agree with you. I just... You lived in San... Like, Jason always, we always talked about this a lot. Jason really romanticized San Francisco growing up, and you lived there ar- arguably during the heyday of when it was the coolest place in the world, and it now... It had a terrible phase, and now people are considering it on the upswing again.

Yeah.

And it's, like, sort of, you know, thanks to the AI money, et cetera, et cetera, it's coming. But I just feel like this is the natural progression of cities, but what you're saying is LA had a longer run as sort of Pleasantville.

Yeah, like you're... Like, every s- every city has a lot of problems with homelessness as well as ice. You know, Austin, Chicago, Miami, blah, blah, blah-But LA as well, but they were so-

Uh-huh

... highly esteemed and regarded, whereas Austin maybe less so, you know?

I think so. My perspective too-

So it was a two-tier tumble

... I have a family perspective in Los Angeles too, and when I go there I will stay with my sister, you know? She has kids, and all the kids are, like, in their 20s or, like, kinda like later teenage years, you know? And they're super... Like, I love 'em all, but they're very involved in the politics of Los Angeles right now. You know, like one of 'em works for the union that represents day workers. You know, they're very much, like, on the front line of sort of, like, fighting Trump and fighting the-

Mm-hmm

... this, you know-

So your sister's, so your sister's rich, is what you're saying. [laughs]

Well, no, they... I mean, they get by. That's another problem in itself. Like, her husband is, like, works for the entertainment industry, and they're having problems because, you know, that too.

Yeah, yeah. That's real.

Like, all of that. They've lost, like, their source of income. But anyway, my point was, like, the kids, like when I go there and I stay there, like, I'm surrounded by those kids and their energy of teenage energy. And it's so intense. Like, the way that they're dealing with Los Angeles and its darkness is really just like, wow.

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

So much drama.

B- it's, it's really affect- it's really affecting them.

And it affects me. [laughs]

Your... And your ability to relax in Los Angeles?

Kind of, yeah.

We need a little more anarchism with our, with our young people, I think.

Yeah. They're, they're... Jason, they're committing anarchy. They're paying $22 for a smoothie. That's-

[laughs]

... that's anarchism in its own way. Wearing your Chrome Hearts sweatpants while protesting is its own way of, of, of-

[laughs] Going... Okay, starting off early, being born till 17 you said in, in Los Angeles.

Yeah

Have been back many, many times over the years. I'm sure back in the '80s, in the heyday, what were the, uh, the best cruising spots in Los Angeles, if you remember them?

You know, I would go up to... I would take my bike and ride up to Griffith Park. Like-

Mm-hmm

... um, do you know where Trails is? You, have you ever been there?

Of course.

Oh, yeah.

Known for a veggie sandwich.

Yeah. Right across from Trails there's a tiny little pond, and there's a whole scene in my book that I talk about. Like, when we went up there, like, as kids, we would ride our bikes up there and just, like, go to the hills and smoke pot. And we were super young, we were probably, like, I don't know, 13, 14, and we got up there and we were around that little pond right across from Trails. And, uh, for some reason there was a body in the pond, which is insane. We discovered this body that was in the pond.

Like Law & Order style?

Kind of, yeah.

Was the body jacking off or was it floating? [laughs]

It was floating.

Yeah.

It isn't really connected to the cruising, but-

Sure

... in those initial days when I would go up there-

Paints a picture

... on my bike, I would see-

Where's the body? [laughs]

... I would see men, like, up in the bushes, and as a young person, I was like, "Oh." I couldn't get on my bike fast enough and go back quick enough to sort it out. So up there, right around there, like-

Sort it out

... higher up into the hills, like right up from where Trails is, there was a lot, a lot, a lot of cruising up there.

Mm.

And then kind of around where the tennis courts are, you know, in Griffith Park, on the other... where the five is, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Like, at Los Feliz Boulevard.

Yeah, this is unfortunately the two places that I recognize the most from my time in Griffith Park.

[laughs]

So I don't know what that says about me.

Somehow interesting how those things line up, huh, Chris?

Yeah, I don't, I don't know. That's where Jason taught me to hike, where, where to hike is at that... That's where we would enter-

Good diversion. Flip it onto me. That's smart.

That's-

It's just like your fascination with, with P-Town.

I was your Sherpa.

No, I just... I... It's just funny that of all the places to name, I have spent no time in that park except at those tennis courts and parking the car across from Trails-

Yeah

... to go on a hike. Those are the only two places I've been.

Well, we do have, we do have an aesthetic eye, don't we-

That's true

... as, as well as some other people.

That's true.

But those places, that really doesn't exist so much anymore. Like you were saying, the '80s, and really much specifically, like, those places were very cruisy. You know where else was cruisy, which was crazy at nighttime, like, down on Melrose in between, like, I wanna say, like, Fairfax and Martel, sort of on Melrose Boulevard. Like, there was this kind of, um, I guess it was an adult bookstore. It was called Drake's. It was on the south side of Melrose.

Okay.

And for some reason, there was just a hub around that, and guys would just get in their cars and just drive around the block and cruise each other. That was a really heavy scene-

Mm

... back in the '80s.

So for some reason, the sex shop got people horny is what you're saying. [laughs]

[laughs]

In a shocking revelation.

Okay, so just anywhere near there you just drive your car around. 'Cause I remember-

Yeah

... like, when I first came to LA you would see all these signs up in some neighborhoods, you know, Silver Lake and things like that, and there would be signs that said, "No cruising." And-

Yeah, exactly

... I would rem- and when I first moved there, I assumed that it was, like, a anti-Mexican, like, lowrider type of initiative. Like-

Right, right

... don't have all the gangsters rolling their cars, cruising down the boulevard.

[laughs]

I had no idea that it was, like, there was so much cruising happening that they had to put up signs. Like, "Stop chugging cock here, guys. Now g- go on and get."

I kinda thought that too, that it-

It could be both. It could be

... I thought it was like a, uh, like, yeah, older car too.

Mm-hmm.

It, it could be both. But right around there where the signs were up, Jason, was a bar called, um, Cuffs.

Mm.

And Cuff was sort-

Great, great name

... Cuffs was sort of like right there.

Wow, that is amazing.

It's good. It really walks that line.

Cuffs. I know, really good. Gay, gay bar names are so good.

Mm.

But just across from... I think they're... It's across now from where the, like... Maybe there's a spin studio right across the street.

Okay.

You know where that is on, like, uh, Hyperion?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it was right across the street from there, and it was a dingy little club and it was super, like, charged. Like, so cruisy. So much fun. Like, there was a man in there who was, like, he was, like, a constant. He was always there, and he'd just sit on a stool, and he had a big wooden paddle.

[laughs]

And guys would come by and they knew, they knew, they knew what his deal was, and they'd come and they'd just, like, lay over his lap, and he'd go at 'em with the wooden paddle.

Wow.

Wow.

That was just one of the many scenarios that was going on in Cuffs.

He'll give you a little Werther's Original afterwards. [laughs]

[laughs] No. I mean, it stayed-

It, it might

... it stayed open late. It stayed open till, like, I don't know, like 4:00 in the morning. It turned into an after-hours thing, and they'd shut the door-

Sure

... and then guys would get really k-Crazy

... God, when I used to go to, when I used to go to bars, there'd be a guy sitting there all the time, but he was just a coke dealer. There was no paddle involved.

[laughs]

That's a... I would've taken a couple spankings if you gave me a discount.

How bad do you want the bag, brother?

Yeah.

[laughs]

Yeah, I'll g- I'll... Let me get a gram for 30 if you-

Redneck chic

... give me a couple smacks. Yeah.

Isn't that funny, though? The guy with the paddle. Like, what the hell?

It reminds me of the, um, the... Do you remember the guy that would roll himself up in a carpet and then go to bars because he got off on people walking on him?

St- stunning.

I think it might still sort of happen. It's not that old. Have you seen this, Roddy?

I've never heard of such a thing.

[laughs]

Is it a gay thing or a straight thing?

I think it transcends. I don't, I don't... I've never seen the guy. Like, it literally just looks like a rolled up, you know, carpet or a Persian rug in the... Like, just at a bar.

[laughs] That sounds kind of straight.

It, it does feel kind of straight. I think he likes it more when women walk on him than men, you know what I mean?

Right, right. It's kind of like, it feels a little lazy and unimaginative, but hell-

[laughs]

... he's getting his.

But imagine how hard it is. You have to go to a, a club or a bar and be like, "Hey, is it okay if I bring in this 12-foot Persian rug?"

[laughs]

"Roll myself up like a taquito, uh, create a massive fire hazard and a cause of injury for multiple people, and I just want people to walk on me. I'll give you no money."

That's wild.

"And I'm not gonna buy any drinks." I like it.

I don't not like it.

Hopefully he's hard in there the whole time. Um-

[laughs]

I wanted to see if... Enough time has passed. You're a wise man. Are you able to defend white dreads at this point in your life?

Not really.

[laughs]

It was a real, uh, stretch back then. But when I was a kid, it, uh, I'd never seen it before. It was uncharted territory.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. I can't even... I don't even know where we went. Like, us as kids, Jason is talking about viewers-

Mm-hmm

... uh, listeners. Uh, like, when Faith No More started, we all, like, had dreadlocks for some reason.

[laughs]

And we were white kids with dreadlocks. And to make it even more complicated, which is, like, difficult for me, but, like, we were really into, like, the last poets at the time, the sort of Black revolutionary sort of, um, word speak group-

Mm-hmm

... that were very political. And, um, so there was a deep kind of, like, embarrassingly, like, weird appropriation of that kind of culture that I don't feel great about, but-

Mm-hmm

... that's what it was. That... It was a different world, and that's where we were. But in that context-

It was

... yeah, straight, uh, like, like, white kid dreads are a little, a little-

[laughs]

... uh, triggering for me.

I, I think the original iteration that you're speaking of, you know, early '90s, it had a little, like, cyberpunk hacker feel to it there, and a little bit of, like, a techno kind of industrial feel to it as well. I know, like, Nine Inch Nails and Ministry and bands like that had one or two dreadlocked members in it typically, right?

For sure. It turned into that, for sure. And even before that, I think it was, like, you brought up Crass before. I think Crass had sort of a sense-

Mm

... of that, too. Like, and real, like, sort of, like-

Oh, yeah

... scroungy, like, kind of like, um, squat, uh-

It was very popular. It was very communal

Yeah, you can... White, white people can have dreads, but they have to earn it in, in a Crass kind of way.

Yeah.

It can't be in a, a Ross Trent kind of way, Andy Sandberg, or, you know, a guy, guy, uh, going to a Phish concert who goes to Yale with the white dreads. You know, that one doesn't click. But if the hair is dreading because you live on a train, I think we can excuse it, right? [laughs]

[laughs] I think so. But anyway, it's triggering for me still.

Sure. Sure, sure, sure. Naturally. So, um, so after you moved to San Francisco, um, '80s, '90s, I've always thought of, uh, you know, like Chris was saying earlier, when I was in high school, late '90s era, I'd lo- I heard all these rumors that it was, like, a, the best place to go paint graffiti. And I heard that, like, on, on Sundays, the police wouldn't really enforce graffiti, and you can just kind of go and paint in the daytime and, you know, sort of do non-violent crimes, and the city would just kind of be okay with it. How, how lawless was, was the Bay Area when you first got there?

I don't know what you're speaking of with the pink graffiti. That's fascinating to me, though.

[laughs]

But, like, when we got there, it was... Yeah, it felt like that. It felt definitely lawless. And, and a big element of it was the bicycle messengers, and I was a bicycle messenger for a long time.

Mm.

And that was just such a, an insane realm of kids. Like, there was a lot of dreadlocks in that crowd, and just Mohawks and attitude and, uh, it was just, like, crazy pirates out on the street on our bicycles, and we would just, like, fuck with everybody.

Mm.

There was this one area where we would sort of, like, camp and smoke pot and smoke cigarettes and fuck with the businessmen. It was called The Wall. It was on Sansome down at Market, and it was, like, this long stretch, and all the bicycle matches, the messengers, we would meet there and just, like, fuck with people.

It's still, like... No, it's still there, and it's still where bike messengers go. Like, that, I've walked by that-

Is that true?

I've walked by that a million times. I mean, it, it... Maybe not now now, but I would say at least five years ago-

Right

... for sure. Yeah. 'Cause I had a roommate who was a bike messenger in Atlanta when I was growing up, and I was always fascinated with it 'cause it seemed like he made a lot of money because d- And, and correct me if I'm wrong, is it a per delivery? Is that how you make money? Like, every, every package you drop off, you're paid, so the faster you are, the more money you make?

Yeah, for sure. It was commission.

Yeah.

Um, but so much fun, too. Like, we had walkie-talkies, you know, and we're screaming in the streets. That for sure had a real lawlessness to it.

Mm.

But that's surprising me, uh, to me, Chris, there's still... Do you think there's... Are there still, uh, bicycle messengers?

I'm sure-

Definitely less, but they exist.

Yeah, but I feel like in San Francisco it's still... Like, it's still faster at this point than a car. You know what I mean? With traffic and shit, it's still faster.

Yeah. Same, same as... I see it in New York as well a decent amount. Um, simply for the s- for the reason that a, a person who's really good on a bicycle can get around that city faster than somebody in a car.

Yeah.

Just straight up. Depending on how much of a pirate you are and how willing you are to-... you know, violate traffic laws and things like that.

When's the last time you got on a bike?

I still ride a bike every day. But like, um, it also there's, I, I, I'm thinking there's probably things that have to be delivered, like physical things, like maybe art things that, like, can't be, like, sent digitally.

Blue- lo- large blueprints I see a decent amount.

Yeah.

During your, during your era, wasn't it, like, legal, like wasn't it like legal documents that would be going-

Absolutely

... from building to building? So I mean, yeah, that's, you can't put that in an Uber really. You know what I mean?

Right.

Like, that, that, I don't know what the fastest way is.

That's how I lost my job. Like, I was moving something. I don't even know what the company Bechtel was. But I was moving s- I was delivering something to Bechtel.

[laughs]

Do you know what that company is?

No.

No.

I don't know. Back then they were a really evil, like, conglomerate. I don't even know what they were. But I was delivering some court case negatives, I remember, and I had them in my, uh, in my pouch, in my bag, and you weren't ever supposed to leave your stuff in the bag on your bike for this very reason. And I took my bike home, and I remember I, like, went upstairs and I was watching TV, smoking pot, and I just left the stuff [laughs] in the bag outside in front of my house.

[laughs]

And it got stolen.

Sure.

And it wasn't so much, like, the bike. It wasn't my bike, like, that, that mattered, but it was the court case, like, um, negatives that I had lost that I-

'Cause the negatives are, at that point, that's a one of one situation. There's maybe not a copy-

Exactly

... of those, of those lying around. Okay.

And also I just, I just Googled Bechtel Corporation, an American engineering procurement construction project management company. One of the most closely guarded secretive multinational companies in the world.

[laughs] I fucked them up, didn't I?

So I mean, you lose some negatives, you might not, yeah, you might, you might wake up in a pond.

[laughs]

You lose those negs.

Yeah, so I lost my job as a result of that one, and then I never went back.

You moved on.

What kinda... Were you a fixed gear daddy?

No, we had, um, I don't think there were fixies back then. That hadn't happened yet. I mean, there were-

Fixie

... but they were really old school.

[laughs]

Yeah. We used gears, for sure.

Well, there's a lot of hills up there. A lot of hills up there.

Man, the hills. I still don't know how those fixies work, too. S- how does, like, uh, do you ride one of those, Jason?

I, I, I, when I was a teen graffiti enthusiast, all well into my 20s, I was a fixed gear rider every day. My, my main means of transportation. I still ride, but it's a single speed now.

So I've never understood this about fixies. Can you clear this up for me, please? Like, if you wanna stop-

Mm-hmm

... there's no brake.

You start pedaling, you start pedaling backwards. You put your foot on the ground, or you put your foot in the tire and try to go down from there.

But Jason, is it like the bikes that we had as children, where, like, we had one gear bikes, and we would, like, reverse the pedals and that would put on the brakes. Is it like that, or is it different?

It's different. That's, that's a coaster brake where-

Oh

... if you pedal backwards, it just turns into a literal brake system. This is, you pedal the, the cranks backwards, and then the wheel starts rolling backwards. You pedal forwards, it starts rolling-

Oh, right

... so when you, when you're going fast down a hill and you start pedaling backwards, it doesn't really work. You have to, like, jump up and skid or, you know, do some other stuff. So you're, you're, you're not able to slow down.

It's for, it's for hot dogging. It's for hot dogging. It's, there's-

You're not able to slow down quickly.

The only reason to do this is to hot dog. It's not practical in any way.

It's soul, it's like soul surfing.

[laughs]

You feel everything in the road. You, you, you become really truly one with the machine. It, it is a amazing feeling, actually. But you know, it's dangerous.

People swear by it. It seems so psychotically dangerous, though, right?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, but people ride motorcycles every day, one of the things I can't wrap my head around.

Yeah.

The danger level, I don't under- I'm just like, why on earth would you do that?

Why would you do... I did that for years and years. I had a motorcycle. B- like I, I see motorcycles these days and I think the same thing. Like, why would you even do that?

I'd rather, I would rather do drugs.

[laughs]

I would rather-

Yeah

... get as close as I can. If I'm gonna die, I wanna die in a plane crash or from drugs.

I know. Talk about risks. Motorcycling is just like, that's a death wish.

To, yeah, I don't, I really have never understood it. And-

Even with the helmet

... call me a pussy, but.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think now, now that the helmet laws are in effect for bicycles, they had to remove the brakes or else you would feel, you know, it was one, one thing or another. Before, helmets were for pussies, and now brakes are for pussies.

Eh.

Boom.

Just something to think about there, my friend.

I do, I do wanna talk about heroin a little bit.

Sure. I love talking about heroin. [laughs]

[laughs]

I, same. Me, me and you both, king. Uh, so I, what w-

[laughs]

In y- in y- in your time, it was, it was only baseline risky, right? 'Cause it was like, this is pre, like, fentanyl. This is pre, so y- you had to, like a, it was like a real man's OD, is what I'm trying to say.

[laughs]

You had to just do too much if you, if you were gonna have a problem.

Yeah, I don't think there was ever a case of, like, a bad batch or something.

Yeah, yeah.

You know? And definitely there was no fentanyl. Like, that was never an issue.

Mm-hmm.

It didn't feel safe. It felt dangerous-

Yeah

... and felt risky, and it felt like you were definitely, like, um, fucking with, you know, something really serious. I mean, just the word, heroin-

Yeah

... is so laden with just, like, this heavy-

Sends a chill down your spine.

It really does.

It's still, it's still k- it's kinda like that, too.

It still is.

I still think it's pretty forbidden.

And also, like, what kind of crazy person, like, puts a needle in their arm? That's a crazy place to go.

Well, that's what I was gonna, that's what I was gonna ask you. Like, the first, did someone do it for you the first time, or did you do it yourself?

Uh, someone did it for me the first time.

Yeah.

I'm not gonna name names, but she was famous.

[laughs]

Does Courtney have a steady hand with the needle, then?

It wasn't Courtney.

It wasn't Courtney? [laughs]

She comes up in the book a lot, listeners. That's why I bring up Courtney.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it was not Courtney, but it was another famous person, a famous woman. Uh, but yeah, you've gotta be taught that. But what a crazy thing. Like, I remember, like, when I stopped doing drugs at one point, I was like, "I'm not even sure I'm an addict," because, like, I don't know. Like, anyone could get addicted to heroin. If you did it over and over, you just get addicted. Like, it doesn't take an a- addictive personality for that to happen. And my friend was like, "Yeah, but-"It kind of seems like you're the type of person, to get high, you're gonna put a needle in your arm? And I was like-

Sure.

Oh, yeah. That's kind of weird. [laughs]

[laughs]

That's a little bit extreme, you know?

Have you been sober for a long time or are you not sober?

Yeah. I mean, I'm not strictly sober. I was sober f- strictly, like going to meetings and stuff, for like 10 years, and then I kind of... I just don't care so much anymore. I don't do anything. I don't drink. I don't ever do drugs. But I'm just... I, I don't care a whole bunch about it.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you think happened? Were you just tired of it?

I don't know what happened. It wasn't like the best of behavior. I remember I was on tour with Faith No More, like later, later, later, and it had been a while, like almost... Maybe I was like eight years sober, and I remember I, I was at this festival and there was, um... It was in Denmark, and there was this Ferris wheel. This is really weird. There was a Ferris wheel, [laughs] and it was like the motif and the theme of the Ferris wheel, if you were to look at it as a person at the festival, was-

[laughs]

... mushrooms. And I was like, "What is that?" And I went over and I got on the Ferris wheel, and they're like, "Here." And they gave me a cup of tea that they made from mushrooms. It was mushroom tea, like-

Mm-hmm

... psychedelic tea, and you could ride the Ferris wheel and get high from the mushroom tea. And at that point, I'd been sober for a long time, and I was just feeling kind of frisky, and I was like, "All right." And I just drank the mushroom tea. And then from that point, I'd smoke pot a couple of times. But honestly, it never w- I, I never went back to a problematic place. Like, my drug of choice was opioids and heroin. I, I never went back there, and I never, I never, I never felt the need to.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, that's good. I mean-

Are you, are you guys sober, either one of you? Chris, you're sober.

I am. Yeah, I am. That's why I'm always fascinated because I do feel like I hear these stor- you know, people just have such different stories as time goes on. I mean, it's almost been, I mean-

They're so fun. You will g- like my book. You'll like the read if you liked Lights. I love stories like that. It's so much fun.

No, me too, especially if the person's made it out the other side. [laughs]

Yeah.

Yes.

Do you guys know that... Have you ever heard that, um, podcast Dopey? Do you know that podcast?

No.

Mm-mm.

It's all... Well, I think I might give some-

Oh, it's really fun.

It's all about people talking about their, like, journey.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. But it's, it's, uh, comedians also, so it's done in a really disrespectful kind of like fun way.

[laughs]

It's really fun. I just made friends with those people recently, and they're so fun. I really like them.

I like disrespe-

They have a good attitude.

I like disrespectful. Uh-

Oh, it looks big.

Yeah.

I also wanted to a- I also wanted to ask you if you are a... Are you... Have you had sex with a woman or are you a gold star?

I've had sex with a woman. You haven't read the book.

No, I haven't read the book. I didn't have time to read the book either. I've writ- we got-

Court- Courtney Love one of them?

Yeah, Courtney was one of them. She was, uh, we were, uh, we were lovers.

I knew you dated, but... or had a relationship, but I didn't know if you ever took it... You know. You never know.

Yeah, we went there.

[laughs]

[laughs]

But, you know, it's funny. Like, as a kid, as a young person, it feels like, I mean, as you're sort of growing up, really as young people, as young, like, crazy, amped-up, horny boys, we'll just have sex any which way we can. You know what I mean?

Sure.

Mm-hmm. Take what you can get.

Yeah.

Yeah. A hole's a hole.

Oh my God. Not like that.

[laughs]

But kind of like that. [laughs] That's disgusting. You're gross.

Not like that, but maybe a little bit like that.

Well, it was. Like, you know what I mean, though? As a kid, like you'll fuck anything.

Of course. But I don't-

Yeah

... I don't want to say-

To put it crassly. I'm sorry, but that's what, the best way to say.

I don't want to say Courtney Love is anything. I mean-

No

... I would say she's one of our most talented, you know.

She's a step above a cantaloupe in a microwave, we'll say that.

[laughs] Yeah, yeah. You sound like you're in jail.

[laughs] I don't...

I always get in trou-

[laughs] A cant-

I get in trouble, Roddy.

A cantaloupe in a microwave. That's a thing?

That's jail shit. Yeah, you gotta make it-

You don't know about that one, Roddy? Come on.

Yeah, you're lying.

Uh-uh.

I mean, of course, right now the kabocha squash is more in season-

[laughs]

... but you can do a, you know, what a-

You can make it work.

I have a PDF I could send.

I get in trouble a lot, Roddy, on this podcast, 'cause I say I prefer Hole to Nirvana.

All right.

[laughs]

And I will stand by that.

Are you, are you making Roddy choose between the two?

I'm not making him choose between the two. I just feel like it's a subject that we could discuss since it was, you know, a part of his book.

[laughs]

That's all. I'm not... I would never make him choose.

My head was still, like, dealing with the cantaloupe, and when you said Hole versus Nirvana-

I, I see. I see. [laughs]

... I was, like, taking it literally. I was, like, trying to wrap my head around Hole and... Okay.

Nirvana or some hole.

You're like me.

Nirvana or some hole.

You're like, "I'll fuck... I'd fuck a cantaloupe before I have to listen to In Utero again," I guess. [laughs]

You know, I'm low-key kind of, like, looking in the kitchen over there, seeing what fruit's available.

[laughs]

[laughs]

So gross.

Let's see here. Boyfriend's at work till 5:00.

[laughs]

I love Hole, though.

Got a nice little butternut squash.

Hole is so in passion. That was, like, such a fun band. Did you get into, like, the very first Hole record, Chris? Do you like that one? Li- uh, not Live Through This, but, uh-

Yeah

... I don't remember what it's called.

I like it all. I think that Malibu is probably my all-time favorite. Um-

Uh-huh

... but I think that she just possessed-

Pretty on the Inside, is that the album?

Pretty on the Inside, yeah.

I hadn't seen, I hadn't seen that kind of, that kind of power before.

Yeah.

Kind of, if that makes sense. And I, I also have gone on to be like a... I love female singers. That's sort of my bag. And I realized-

I do, too. That's my bag.

And I realized in a lot of ways she's the archetype for that as far as especially defining that time period-

Yeah

... in such a clear way.

Such a force. She was so strong. She still is so strong. Like, what a voice. Like, not the voice, voice voice, but such a person in that realm.

Mm-hmm.

That changed everything.

I don't think we have pr- we, we're not... People don't have personalities like that anymore. They're not really allowed to.

Yeah. I don't know anyone like that.

Yeah. Hope, do you think, uh, i- in our lifetime we will, the world will sort of forgive Courtney and, and we will begin to respect and, and honor her the way that she deserves?

I don't know. I don't really see her under sort of the thumb like that. Do... Are, do people, you feel like people don't really, uh, respect her now? I don't really know that.

I mean, like, kinda, kind of post-Kurt's death, there was always some bad energy there. A lot of people thought that she was responsible for pushing him to that level. And I know that she's had some ups and downs with... with drugs and some, some issues with other people, and she can be, you know

Yeah. It's funny, like, when I started, I remember, like, talking about stuff, if I talk about anything online and I, I mention Courtney or anything, like, the, the, um, vitriol that kind of comes my way. Like-

Yeah

... I see that and I see those crazy theories. But honestly, to me it's more like, it's like crazy talk. It's like conspiracy theorists, like, more than anything. It's like crazy people. It's like-

Yeah

... what are you even, like, saying? Like, really, you think that Courtney killed her husband? Are you serious?

Yeah, I, I, I used, I used to think that, but I don't think that anymore. Elliot Smith, on the other hand, you know, that one-

No, Elliot Smith, I don't believe it for one second, Jason. I'm with you. She did it. No one stabs themselves. That's too far.

That is a really weird death, Elliot Smith.

It's too, it's, it's too weird.

That's really strange.

It's too... There's, I got too m- I got, I got too many questions. I got too many questions.

But when you make music like that that connects with people, you know, who knows? It, it, it brings-

I think that's the problem

... certain things out in people.

I think... Yeah, it does. It really does. It's a testament to how much the music connects with people, 'cause otherwise they wouldn't act like that.

Chris, did you read the, uh, Mark Lanegan autobiography?

No, I didn't, actually. I've heard a lot of good stuff about that though.

God, that's an amazing one.

I've heard a lot of good-

That's a crazy ride.

Okay.

Read that one, Aftershock.

I, I will. That's, that's-

Read it. It's so good.

[laughs]

It's so intense.

Okay. I'll take you up on that. I've, I've only heard good things-

Yeah

... about that. And it's, it's fairly, it's fairly... I mean, I know he's, I know he died, but-

Mark Lanegan, uh, frontman of Screaming Trees

... Screaming Trees. But it, it was, it-

For our listeners at home

... can't, when did that... That didn't come out that long ago, right?

Maybe six years ago. He didn't pass that long ago.

Yeah.

Maybe he died, like, four years ago.

Yeah, he d-

He di- he died in 2022.

Yeah, yeah, okay. That's, I was trying to rem- okay. Yeah, I will. I'll pick it up. I'll hit amazon.com.

Is Jason always the one who looks up stuff on his computer, and Chris, you just kind of sit back and let him do that?

Yeah.

Yeah? [laughs]

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

You know what's funny is, like, when I listen to you guys talk, I could tell that. I was like, "Oh, he's, like, on the computer." And then Chris feels just kind of lazy, just, like, sitting back and just, like, letting it roll.

[laughs]

I'm not... If I don't know it, if I don't know it before we start, then I'm not gonna know it while we're doing it. That's kind of where I'm at with it.

I like that attitude. But that's why I think that's part of your combination. Like, um, Jason, you're kind of on it.

Yeah. Fire and ice. Yin and the yang.

[laughs] Yeah.

I like... I'm a, I'm a researcher, you know?

Fire and ice.

I like that.

You're like a, you're like a pack of Dentyne fire and ice.

[laughs]

But also, since, since I, I talk on the pod and then I edit the pod and, and all that stuff-

Oh, you do

... I put myself in the head-

Okay

... of somebody. If I was listening to this-

Yeah

... like, that's how I edit. If I was listening to this and I said, "This sucks," I just cut it. But if I'm listening to this and I'm like, "Oh, these guys just said Mark Lanegan. I don't know who the fuck that is," I will look it up-

Right

... and say, "That's the singer of Screaming Trees." And then they'll say, "Who the fuck is The Screaming Trees?"

Well, good on you. You're very efficient. Yeah. Good. Good follow-through.

But also, uh, but it, it's a, a c- contentious thing in my mind because in our generation, and even more so yours, you would read something or listen to a band or whatever and hear a word or a name, and you're like, "I don't know what that is," and you would ask friends, go to a record store, go to a library, do the research, and figure out who that person was, and then there's, like, a rewarding feeling in that versus, you know, having ChatGPT just-

Boom

... shoot you out an answer instantly.

Yeah.

Or have me tell you the answer on the podcast.

Yeah.

So sometimes I like the idea of making people work for it a little bit.

Nobody wants to work for anything. Um-

[laughs]

Roddy, thank you for joining.

That's how we sell underwear.

Yeah. Roddy-

I look it up for you

... thanks for joining us on How Long Gone. The book, The Royal We, is everywhere you get books. And go stream Faith No More if, if you still make money off that. I hope you do.

I mean, kind of. It's so- it's something from a long time ago for me, but yeah, give it a go. Are you guys gonna send me some Skims? [laughs]

Well, you know what? Yes. I'll figure it out. I'll, I'll make it my personal mission to get you some Skims.

Yeah, we can send you some Skims.

I would love that so much.

Okay.

Are we in XL, XL in the drawers?

I think I'm an L.

Okay.

Are we sure about that, honey?

Not, not 100%, but I'm gonna go with L.

[laughs]

I like a little bit, I like a little bit of tightness, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah. I heard that before.

Just a little bit.

All right, on that note. On that note, thank you, Roddy.

If you got a vein, show it off, brother.

[laughs]

I'm with you, Roddy.

Thank you, Roddy. You're late-

Y'all are cool.

We appreciate it, man.

Thanks, you guys.

Hopefully see you soon.

Yeah. See you later.

All right. Later. [upbeat rock music]

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