873. - Paul Needham

All right, uh, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian, and they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world, and they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you?

We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place.

All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. [upbeat music] How Long Gone. Uh, it is Chris Black in, uh, London. It is Them Jeans in Los Angeles. What's really good, baby?

Just drinking my Cowboy Colostrum coffee, reading my GQ newsletter penned by you.

[laughs]

You know, haven't had a good night's sleep in, in a week. I- I'm, I'm just not good.

I had my first one last night, and I'd still, I'd still... I had to still had a sleeping spell at dead 2:00 PM. So how good was it, you know?

[sighs] Yeah, I did, I did get a little nap in yesterday actually, while I was doing my Hyperice legs on the couch.

Oh, those, those will lull you to sleep, man. That pressure, it's like a, it's like being in the womb from the, from the waist down, of course.

Shorty waist down.

[laughs]

Sh- Shorty in the womb from the waist down. Yeah. I'm just reading your, uh, your GOAT Oscar winner, Kevin Spacey, says he is now homeless.

Yeah, but he's living in Airbnbs and hotels, which is, I mean, to me, that's every cre-

[laughs]

That's a lot of creators, you know?

Yeah. Diplo's homeless, homeless-

Yeah, technically

... by the same logic.

Yeah. He's not, he didn't say what cars he has. He didn't say... You know, he didn't, he kinda left out some major stuff, I feel like, in that, uh, in that-

I will say, Kevin-

... point he's making

... you should have done what you are good at, which is acting. Generational actor. You probably played many roles in and outside of the courtroom. Represent yourself for all of your sexual harassment cases.

[laughs]

Don't blow your millions on these fucking lawyers.

Well, this is the, the... He, he's off. He got off, but Hollywood still won't touch him with a 10-foot pole. He was cleared on all charges, at least in the UK, but-

I know, but I'm saying the reason why he's claiming to be homeless is because he had, you know, millions of dollars worth of legal fees, right?

I mean, I'm sure, uh, look, I'm s-

Obviously he has a cost of living that he was not able to maintain after his revenue stream was cut off because of his wrongdoings, you know?

Yeah, but I think that he's... I mean, singing standards in Cyprus for real estate developers-

[laughs]

Um, I mean, [laughs] look, dude, uh, it, that's a bad way-

Singing standards in Cyprus, that's, that's poetic

... but is that a bad, is that a worse, is that a worse way to make money than podcasting? I, I don't... You know what I mean? Like, I, I don't, I'm not gonna judge the, another man's-

It depends on the pod. Look, if he, if he goes the Dear Media route, if he goes the Barstool route, then yeah, it's worse than singing standards in Cyprus.

You know, it's like, it, it could be, it could be worse. I mean, I guess living in an Airbnb, uh, is, is bad, u- unless you're David.

You know, they should have, like, for all the, all the right-wing MAGA true crime, you know, uh, like paranormal activity, UFO shit, just hire Spacey to do all the voiceover. Like, how good would it be if you're listening to a, a true crime pod but it's, it's gifted orator Kevin Spacey-

Right. I mean-

... reading all of the copy?

I mean, he litera-

If you, if you're willing to get past his voice, you know?

He literally, he literally played the president well for-

Yeah

... uh, you know, for whatever, five years or something.

Mm-hmm.

He could da- he could def-

That's a, that's a little bag right there. Unfortunately, because of his wrongdoings, the bag is not what it once was. He'll have to, you know, he'll, he'll get 1,500 for the little Wondery shit, but, you know-

[laughs]

... it's better than sleeping on the bus stop. [laughs]

He's got a two bedroom by the... There's a breeze.

[laughs]

There's a breeze.

Yeah. Um, I was just reading your, your Substack story, um, you wrote in your, in your GQ newsletter. You, you talked about you were on the, on a podcast a few months ago, and you me- you were mentioning, you know, the downfalls and, and what, of, of Substack and what you didn't like about it, and it got a little viral because you were, you know, saying something that was inflammatory or upsetting to a lot of people. In this one you're kind of explaining your case a little bit more, but then is that making people less upset-

Oh, no

... once you've explained everything? [laughs]

No, I've already... No, don't worry. Substack PR has already reached out to me to say that I got it wrong about the employees. It's only one employee, and I need to correct it, which, fine, but I don't think that's really where the sticking point is on this. You know what I'm saying?

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Um, but no, I've already, I've heard from, I've heard from some, um, enemies of the show, let's say-

[laughs]

... that I am not doing my job right when my job is to give my opinion, um, which is a tough... You know, I'm not in the trenches. I'm not part of the, um, traveling press group for the President of the United States. I type from a laptop wherever I am about whatever I want, and if you don't like that, I respect it, and please unlike and unsubscribe. I'm fi- I'm fine with losing this person particularly because I don't know what the, uh, I don't know what the point is. I don't, I don't... I, whatever. But it's, it's, it's not, I just don't understand why... I mean, Cho made a good point. He said, I said ch- Google ChatGPT. He was like, "It's more Twitter or Tumblr."

Yeah.

So that, which is fair, but imagine, imagine someone fighting for you because they love Tumblr so much and how funny that would be.

[laughs]

Like, imagine how funny that would be if somebody was like, "You don't understand what Tumblr does. You don't understand the..." You'd laugh at them. You'd laugh at them.

And you're like, "You shouldn't see the accounts I follow on Tumblr. I'm pretty sure I know exactly how to use this shit pretty well, bro."

[laughs] But I just don't know why. I guess I just don't know why people feel... It's interesting what people choose to feel passionate about when it's just... Hold on one second, sorry.Yeah, it's hard to understand why people feel more passion about some of these things than others, and maybe it's because they earn money off of one and the other one is just entertainment

I, I think that, that is one of them for sure, and I think that when I really wanna upset somebody, I will, I will say something where, like, if you look into it, you realize that you're quietly being insulted. You know what I mean?

That's not, that's not what I'm trying to do, though.

I know. I know.

It's not even-

I know that's not what you're trying to do. It's, it's like, uh, when, when people know, like, this is the way I do things. I'm a writer. I believe in journalistic integrity. I'm, it's r- it's, there's, there's a category of people on the internet who write, and it's people who are like, "I don't know what my life or my job is. I used to love doing book reports in school, so that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna write a story about a thing, but instead of writing about what I think about it, I'm gonna tell you the en- the entire history and etymology of this subject, and then hopefully I'll get a good grade from my fake teacher boss at the whatever."

[laughs]

You know? So when you don't do that and you don't fit into those guidelines, it's very much the similar, like, when, when everyone started being like, "I'm a freelance creative," versus, "I work in the office," and then people are like, "Why, why do you work in an office?" Like, I, that's weird. And other people are like, "If I don't have this fundamental system that's been in place for decare- decades or centuries-

Mm

... I have a panic attack." And if somebody's able to find success, you know, just like, "Oh, why don't you just take this line instead?"

[laughs]

And you're like, "What do you mean?"

"What do you mean?"

"What do you mean? This is the line that we all wait in." You know, it's just like when you, we're gonna talk to our guests in a few minutes, when you're waiting in line at Torrisi or get a pizza at Cerri's or something like that, and somebody's like, "Oh, I, I already ordered it online. I just, just pick it up right here in this line." And they're, "What do you mean?"

"What do you mean?"

"What do you mean you can do that?"

I think this, this could be, I, I want this to go, I wonder if this is... I mean, I don't think that the way the people who were on Elon's dick and thought Tesla was revolutionary and now are embarrassed that they ever bought the car-

Mm-hmm

... that should be a lesson to us.

[laughs]

That these things, you can't ride that hard for these corporations. It's not, it's, they don't care. Like, it's just not that serious for them. Why is it so serious for you? I mean, a, it, and them allowing you to make income is cool, but there's other way, I, I just, as I say in the story, there's other ways to do that. Like, you could pay a developer $3,000 and have your own form of payment system. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not saying that's the b- the best way to do it or the easiest way to do it.

Look, we all don't have Allison Roman advance money, okay?

No, no, of course not. Of course not. But I just, I find it all-

You gotta spend money to make money

... it's all, it's whatever, man. I'm, I'm, this is the last time I'll ever talk about Substack. I, I saw it five times in one day about different things and I was like, "Okay, I, I gotta say something. I'll never talk about it again. I don't care. Go make your money on S-

[laughs]

... go make your money on Substack. Go use Notes like it's Twitter even though it's lamer. Do whatever you want. It's, it's not a pers- it, it's not a shot at you. It's just an observation. It's just an observation on the, on the platform.

[laughs]

That's all.

I th-

That's all

... I think when, uh, another thing I've noticed when, when I talk negatively about, you know, digital community building and, you know, people talking about their position in the creative cul- culture or whatever, I think when you take people who don't really have an actual community and don't really have any culture, and then they're able to tie, they're a- they'll, they're able to take something like Substack or, or Tumblr or, or Twitter and say, like, "This is my community. This Discord server-

Mm-hmm

... about how women are mean to me is my community," and it's also, you know, their culture. And then when you a- when, not even when you attack it and say it's dumb, but just say that that isn't real-

[laughs]

... it gets people really upset. It's just like, "This is my, um, this is my AI robot wife." And then someone's just like, "Oh, that's-

[laughs] That's not your wife

... a piece of plastic. It's not a real human wife."

Like, "Yes it is. Yes it is."

And then they're like-

"What the fuck are you talking about?"

No, no. Like, like, you know, their, their world crumbles.

I, I just don't, I don't know. I, I'm, I did not, I don't know. I didn't, I didn't think this would elicit... I, I knew, like, when I said that on Semaphore, I knew, I, I knew they were gonna, you know, they pulled it out and, and, and made it a thing, which is fine.

You know exactly what you're doing, Chris.

But I mean, that's their, that's their job. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's the job of any, you know, if you're m- if you have a podcast and you're-

"If we're gonna h- get this cracker on this pod, he better say some shit that gets-

Exactly. Exactly. He better-

... clicked up or else we're not gonna bring him back"

... he better say something inflammatory about an online community or we're gonna... But look, he doesn't come-

If he doesn't come for Discord, he better say, "Free Kevin Spacey," or what, you know.

[laughs]

He better say something that's gonna, good click or bad click, he needs it.

We, we, we got a few things to cover. We might have to, uh, because I was late, I apologize, I had the time wrong in my head. So if we g- if we're gonna, um, we're gonna make Paul wait five minutes I think, because we got Addison Rae at the airport-

[laughs]

... with a blind- blindfold on. We got Dua, we got Dua Lipa in a bathing suit in Rio de Janeiro.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

I saw the-

Hold on now. Hold on

... I saw the craziest table maybe I've ever seen in a restaurant last night at the River Cafe.

Oh.

It just, it just goes on and on. It's, it's, um-

What, tell me about this table.

I w- I went to River Cafe last night with, uh, Camille, her husband Francois, Julia, and Kareem, and we're sitting there and I'm like, "Oh shit, Jarvis Cocker just walked in." [upbeat music] I'm like, "Oh, that's cool. He's with his wife. Okay." Then, uh, Tilda Swinton walks in.

Ooh.

Then Wes Anderson and Noah Baumbach walk in together.

Oh.

And they all sit, then they all sit together, and then David Cameron, uh, leaves. It was just a crazy, crazy Wednesday night. It was just, it was more than I was bargaining for.

Oh.

Um-

Okay

... but I, I j- I was like, it's cool that all these people hang out together.

David Cameron, like, the, the former prime minister-

Yes

... of the United Kingdom-

Yes

... was there as well?

The former, the former PM. Yes, the former PM.

Damn, bro.

Which of course I didn't rec- [laughs] of course I didn't recognize him. A British person told me that.

Okay. Well, same, I d- had the same thing. I went to go see Robin, powered by Spotify and ACME.

[laughs]

And, uh, sa- the, it was a, it was a, I was in a balcony, not in a table full of A-list celebs. It was just me and-All of Los Angeles' best and brightest gay guys

That's, I mean, that sounds about right. And I have, before, one more, one more quick before we talk to Paul, because this is on-

Mm-hmm

... on a food subject, I want him to weigh in eventually as well. But Plum's friend hosted a, a dinner at her house that I went to.

Plum Sykes.

Plum Sykes, friend of the show. And I was, I was sitting next to, uh, my friend Tallulah, and then to her right was Richard E. Grant, the actor.

Mm-hmm.

And Richard E. Grant, um, is a, is a character. He was a great dinner guest, but I, he, he was... They served this black cod miso, it was delicious, and Richard reaches into his pocket, I thought he was getting, like, a handkerchief, and he pulls out a Union Jack bag full of Maldon sea salt-

[laughs]

... and salts his own fish, and then proceeds to squeeze the lime on the fish. And Jason, I've never seen this before in my life. He ate the lime, rind on, swallowed it.

[laughs]

Have you ever seen that or heard of that?

Uh, I mean, I've seen a couple people bring their own-

Yeah, bring your own stuff

... Mald- Maldon makes a little tin that looks like a little kind of metal matchbox, and you could do-

Yes, yeah

... like, a little sprinkle of... Haven't seen the Union Jack Coke bag full of Maldon. I guess I've seen some, like, homeless guys eat a whole lime, but not-

I've never seen-

... not famed character actor Richard E. Grant.

It was so cool. It was, it was so cool because I had to... I, when, I just, I couldn't even say-- After I called him out on the salt, I couldn't call him out on the lime, you know what I mean? But any- anyway, I was-

He could have a touch of scurvy.

He could have a touch... [laughs] He looks great, I have to say, he looks great for his age. And it was a, the, the, the meal was delicious, but I was just, I was taken aback, um, by his, his ravenous appetite that didn't stop at-

One of the guys

... at citrus.

One of the guys.

He's gonna come on the show. He's gonna come on the show.

Okay. [laughs]

All right, let's talk to, let's talk to our buddy Paul. Jason, I think it's time. We've left him waiting for a whole three minutes.

Yeah, it's okay. Our man, Paul Needham, he's, uh, CEO of Infatuation, a website that people use to find food and things like that. We did some events with him, and we have become friends, and he's a cool guy, and we're, we're, we have a powerful, successful business mind on the pod, and we're just gonna talk about cinnamon rolls and bullshit like that for an hour.

[laughs]

So let's give him a jingle. [jingle plays]

This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian, Stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's, uh, it's trying to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions.

A lot of questions, but how often? 'Cause we do this podcast three times a week, and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do?

Three times a week. And I, I, I have a feeling, just based on the platform and these talking points, that they're maybe gonna be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess.

The Guardian is not some billionaire-owned platform. They're not afraid to say what they wanna say, brother.

Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in, in what, uh, journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at, at, [laughs] Stateside.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch on YouTube. It's three times a week. And, and who couldn't use more news? You know, especially, especially when it's, when it's not, you know, from here, let's say.

[laughs]

Give, give it a, give it a listen. Give it a listen. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by our best friends at BetterHelp. Jason, we're, we're deep into May, which is, uh, Mental Health Awareness Month, and this is just a reminder that whatever you're going through, you don't have to go through it alone. Life is a damn journey. Some days feel good and others feel overwhelming. Whatever's keeping you up at night, it's easy to feel like you have to figure it all out on your own. But the truth is, no one has all the answers. Well, and no journey should be alone. Having someone with you to listen, to understand, and to support you can really make all the difference.

I agree, Chris, and sometimes, you know, it, it's nice to be talking to somebody, even if they're not even listening, even if you don't even get to be in the same room with them, because what you're doing is you're admitting these things to yourself, and that's the most, that's the most rewarding thing you can do sometimes. So you can have a great little therapy sesh with your perfect therapist at BetterHelp. Choosing between over 30,000 people so you can get the right one just for you. Over six million people globally are using it. And you know, have some breakthroughs. Go on that walk after your BetterHelp sesh. You know, whatever it might be. Get a nice little lunch all for yourself. Maybe a non-alcoholic kombucha. And just think and be like, "Damn, I really am him." You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have somebody with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/howlong. That is betterH-E-L-P.com/howlong.

Every time I go to the doctor, I walk out of that bitch feeling dumb. I got no real info. This guy in a white coat just say, "You're fine," you know, "Drink more water."

He knows how to charge my copay.

Exactly.

That's about it.

As if, as if I could drink more water, doctor. I, I don't get data. I don't get a game plan. I just get a pat on the ass and get out there and, and make it better. But SuperPower is doing something different. SuperPower sends a licensed professional to your home, or you can visit a nearby lab if you're a little freak. It's a simple blood draw, one simple blood draw with over 100 biomarkers, which is way more than what you usually get, and it unlocks a real understanding of your body. Uh, their app includes detailed information on your heart, liver, thyroid, hormones, metabolism, vitamin and mineral levels, and even environmental toxins. Ooh, ooh. So from disease prevention-

[laughs]

... to treating that annoying brain fog or simple optimizing for your gym game, let's go. SuperPower is more comprehensive and advanced system out there.

Make this year the year we all stop guessing about our health with SuperPower. For a limited time, How Long Gone listeners get $20 off to unlock their new health intelligence. Head over to superpower.com and use the code HOWLONG for $20 off your membership. That is code HOWLONG, and after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about SuperPower. Do us a favor if you could and tell them How Long Gone sent you, and that'll just support us. Thanks.

Yeah, Paul is a, a great business mind. Why do people wait in line at Don Angie?

[laughs]

Can you tell me that, Paul?

First, I joined... I, I caught the last few minutes of the boys bantering, and if you'd had me on, Chris and Jason both knowing who David Cameron was 24 hours ago-

[laughs]

... I'd uh, I don't know where I would've been on that. So kudos.

Well, well to, to be fair, Paul, I didn't know-

Keep 'em guessing, Paul

... I didn't know him by face. I knew him by name.

All right.

'Cause I looked right at him when he was walking out and did not know who he was.

And Jason's got the PM language. We're, we're ready to go on British politics here.

Uh, I don't, I don't wanna do that.

When you say PM language, what do you mean by that? That's how little I know about this subject.

Prime minister.

Just calling the prime minister the PM-

Oh, oh, oh

... I think, I think you're there. I think Downing Street's ready for Chris and Jason.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason's used to saying-

Don't let me get my abbreviation bag. Sorry, go ahead, Chris.

He usually, he usually says BM, but PM-

[laughs]

... worked in, in the, in this case, [laughs] so he felt, he felt confident using, using that.

I, I consider River Cafe to be one of the great rooms in the world. There's something about the color, the furniture, those dishes lined up on that kinda high bar.

I agree.

The pizza oven that's bigger than any Italian-

Yeah

... pizzeria I've ever been to, but they just make, like, 11 asparagus flatbreads a day.

A pizzette.

But for some reason need a, a, a Boeing 747 sized pizza oven.

It... I just love it 'cause it's annoying as fuck to get to. So annoying to get to.

Bit of a chore?

If you bring it up to any British person, aristocrat, fucking dazed intern, like what-

[laughs]

... whoever it is, the f- only thing they can say about it besides it's so good is, "It's so expensive."

I know. They love-

They say it's ex-

... they love to talk about it

... they say it's expensive.

Yeah.

They say it's expensive first. These are people that have the money.

[laughs]

I'm not e- I'm not with people there that don't have the money.

Oh, okay. What's, what's the American version of that? Is that, like-

Honestly, I think Evan Funke gets a similar... People like to talk about how expensive his pastas are also.

Yeah.

And I think Ruthie and Evan are both in the kinda like, "We're willing to really throw a jab at you on our pasta prices." And I, my hat's off to her.

Mm. Mm-hmm.

The restaurant's full.

She was there last night, too, in all her glory.

Charge what you can charge.

Charge what you-

Can I give you an infatuation tip, Chris?

Please.

On how to do River Cafe?

Please.

On your way to the airport, lunch at River. It's like you're on your way to Heathrow. It's, you're almost there.

I like this, I like this idea. You don't, you don't know me well enough. You don't know me well enough, Paul. I'm on the b- w- I'm on the plane well before lunch hour, no matter where I'm going.

[laughs] Are you joking?

That ain't... Yeah, you must be joking. I'm not-

The next time you're on a red eye or something, I d- I do the same thing for Nobu Malibu. You do lunch at River Cafe. They've got a bag check. They literally have a bag check for this.

Yeah, I saw, I saw a guy had a bag, I saw a guy had a bag check the other night.

Chris, Chris is saying he hasn't been to an airport before lunchtime in probably 12 years. He's on, he's on the 4:00 AM out every day.

I take the earliest flight possible. So lunch, I, it would maybe after I land, it would be, it would be a possibility.

'Cause you're worried about delays or just you like to get the day going?

Yes.

Both. I think it is the, I think it is the best time to prevent issues because the day hasn't happe- you know, there's not a n- not enough has happened to cause problems yet, I guess is what I-

Mm-hmm

... is what I like to say.

I got it.

But I, I think sometimes it's getting, it's getting to the point where it could be make me feel physically bad, you know? And I still do it. Like I know I get home at midnight and I have to get up at 4:00 and it just, the whole day is a wash, even if the flight's two hours.

But also what Chris is one of those guys where the hotel where, you know, hotel check-in time is 3:00 PM typically, sometimes you can get lucky. Chris just always, whenever he shows up to a hotel, the room is ready for him.

No, that's not... [laughs]

I'm, so I'll be like, "We, we've a, we've a... I woke up at 3:15 after a show and now we flew to Denver. The hotel check-in time is 3:00 PM. We've arrived at 9:52 AM and now we can just sit in this lobby for four hours or I could have slept." You know what I mean? But Chris, when he's solo-

[laughs]

... oh, the room was ready for me. What do you know?

I'm trying to think of the last time the room wasn't ready. I'm dead serious.

[laughs]

I got here-

It just always works for you. For me it's like a 50/50 coin toss if I'm gonna get the room early.

I got to Lo- I got to London. I came to the Zetter. I checked in at 11:00 AM.

Zetta?

It was ready to go.

What about you, Paul? What's your, what's your luck? What's your luck on early check-in?

I like transportation logistics as just like a theme for you guys.

That's the whole sh- that's the all we have.

Paul, you listen, you know. You know about our logistics, you know about our flight tracking.

[laughs] If this is, if this isn't sponsored by Delta One, I don't know who's writing the tracks, but-

Well, Delta One's not sniffing around, Amex isn't sniffing around, so that's kinda why we had you on. We're willing to discuss-

[laughs]

[laughs]

... the Chase Sapphire flip-flop program.

You have more friends in those, uh, high-level advertising spaces than we're able to, to, to have ourselves, I think.

All right. I'll get working. I'll get working. First I gotta... You teed me up on Don Angie, and you didn't even know you were doing that. But we have held tables at Don Angie for Chase Sapphire Reserve customers. So open up your OpenTable, Mr. Black-

[laughs]

... and get in there and you'll see these sapphire colored icons in the app, and you definitely don't need to be at 4:00 on a Saturday standing across from the Equinox Greenwich Village.

I have eaten there before.

[laughs]

I've eaten there once and it was good.

Okay. Let's say I don't have a Chase Sapphire Reserve card. How about now?

Look, people-

Can I just, can I just text you and get one of the JP Morgan tables that are held?

Ooh.

Yeah, they, they got the whole back corner.

[laughs]

The line thing is so... I mean, we all saw Meadow Lane last week.

Bro, Jason... Well, hold on. I don't know if Jason did because that's like J- J-

Mm-mm.

So this guy has opened another, yet again, a fake Erwan in Tribeca and there was like, how many, Paul, how... That line was long.

So I was, I was reporting live from the outskirts of the line. I was like-

Paul, you make too much money to do that, bro.

[laughs]

Like, you make way too much money to do that.

I was there. I was there with the people.

He was doing some freelance reporting for the Tribeca Citizen. It's a local rag.

[laughs] Thank you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Thank you. Pam Frederick, who runs the Tribeca Citizen, by the way-

Oh, okay

... has the best job in America. She walks up and down the streets of Tribeca with this, like, legal size notepad, just writing down story ideas and things she wants to do.

What a dream.

Um, Meadow Lane is wannabe Erwan, Greenwich and Harrison, and-I don't totally understand the TikTok obsession with it, but the whole, like, when will it open? When will Con Ed turn their gas on? Like, this has been a storyline.

It became, yeah, it became a, it became, like, a viral storyline.

It-

'Cause it's also, is it just some rich guy? Like, who is the guy?

He's definitely very rich. The interiors are unbelievable. Sophie Cohen, who's the owner of the Mets's daughter, did the art, like curated the art.

Oh, I know, I know So- I know Sophie. She's... I like her.

Yeah, she's good people and, you know, this is a very high-end gourmet grocer.

Do you hear what we just... Do you hear what you just said? Curated the art at a grocery store.

[laughs] I know. That's why I'm calling it out.

[laughs]

I just wanna be clear, we're at a point now where that's what's happening. Like, that's what we have to do to charge $55 for a, you know, a-

Like, great selection of winter squash, but I, I hated the interiors-

[laughs]

... and the, the uplighting was unflattering.

My favorite was the $11, uh, Driscoll's berries. Can't get them anywhere else.

Organic at least, I hope.

Organic. Green tin, green tin.

Driscoll's? Smells like broke in here.

Oh, we're still... Oh, we're still putting up Keith Haring's? Okay.

I guess the Driscoll's-

[laughs]

... are gonna sit in the... That's-

Well, well, the, the thing that's interesting to me that you mentioned is, like, people are following along. This... We're talking about Tribeca in New York City, an expensive neighborhood in the most expensive city in, on planet Earth.

Chris is in London, all right? Show your respect.

[laughs] But we're, we're in a, a very dense urban area filled with tens of thousands of sources of food of all, of all price points, and this is, like, a grocery store that's going in, and people are reporting on when Con Ed is turning the gas on. And I heard rumors about the, the hard hat walkthrough, and we're pulling permits and all this stuff. We're... Do you think people are cosplaying as, like, those who are in need of real food? You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's part of the fun and the drama, or like, are people's lives that pathetic?

I mean, if you're asking, if you're asking, like, do people need better things to do-

[laughs]

... I guess I'm at a yes.

The answer is yes.

I, I, I just... It, it feels like people are cosplaying as, like, waiting in a bread line for their sustenance when these are people who have-

No, it's like-

... more money than us

... no, it's, it's a viral... It's like a v- it's like a stupid Deuxmoi style viral thing 'cause the guy kept chronicling the issues himself. Like, he was going selfie mode, being like, "This is what's happening," and, like, posting on TikTok every day.

Like, "Me and my wife quit our jobs, and we started a bean and cheese burrito business, and follow along for all of our-

Yeah

... our wins and pitfalls."

Am I wrong? Am I wrong, Paul? Isn't that kinda what happened?

No, I mean, so that is what happened in terms of him. I think in terms of the people standing online, and I actually was standing on... We had Brit, who's our social media, and Willa, who's one of our New York writers, we had them stand on the line. Infatuation, we always show up anonymously.

[laughs]

We don't take, you know, PR reservations or freebies. We pay for everything ourselves. So they stood online on day one. They dropped 250 bucks on prepared foods, some matcha, the whole thing.

So the ma- oh, so the matcha was 195, and they were able to get another-

[laughs]

Okay.

A couple Driscoll's in.

Yeah, they got a Rocky's Banana Foam Latte-

[laughs]

... and a slice of pepperoni, and off we go.

We're out for 250.

250.

Luckily, the Chase doesn't get declined.

[laughs]

You know, it's all good.

And, and what I will tell you is day one who was online with them was all influencer. It was all just people who wanted to ride the wave of the content-

Yeah

... and wanted to put out their own Meadow Lane content.

A lot of, a lot of sweatshirts that said park with an E-

[laughs]

... I imagine. [laughs]

I think, you know, three, four days in, 'cause I've been walking by, I've been checking out the scene-

What? [laughs]

... knowing that, knowing that I'm coming on How Long Gone, like-

[laughs]

Sure. Mm-hmm

... definitely now it's just normal people who are like, "What the hell is this?" And the line's gotten a lot shorter.

Since I, I don't like Happier Grocer because it sells magazines and shit. Like, I don't ne- I, like, want it to be-

[laughs]

Like, they have a great selection of stuff. Like, it's, it's also I think some of these stores, part of the offering, and what's interesting about Happier Grocer is that you can get stuff that you've only seen on the internet. You can actually try something you've never seen before.

Mm.

And I think that's part of the proposition. But at this place, is the... How was the stuff? How was the prepared food?

[laughs]

How does it compare to Erewhon, the fucking, the pinnacle?

We thought, we thought the pastries, we thought the pastries were good, like genuinely good. Um, they did like their matchas, just so you know.

Were you having Bad Boy pastries though or just a classic croissant?

I, I just had the croissant.

Okay. I was hoping for, like, a pistachio-

I think they tried out, they tried out some more stuff. The, the highlight, and I don't know if we got Ohio State listeners, but, you know, it's The Ohio State University. It's the chicken salad- [laughs]

[laughs]

... at Meadow Lane.

Okay. Wait, wait, wait. What? [laughs]

And the highlight is definitely the chicken salad, which was really good.

Okay. All right. I-

It's, like, $11 for a kinda small plastic tray of it. Wasn't, like, the craziest price I've ever seen, and it had some nice horseradish in it. I know Jason wants those food notes. Um-

I do.

He loves, he loves the sting of a horseradish. That's one thing about him.

It had a, it had some notes of horseradish. Um, and then we did not like the chopped salad, which is called the LA Chop, and needs to go to La Scala and take a lesson-

Whoa, damn

... in chopped salad living.

Period.

You say, "Go to Beverly Hills, loser."

But honestly, I think Rigor Hill's the winner. Of the Happier Grocer, Rigor Hill, Meadow Lane kinda triangle-

[laughs]

But, but I wanna know if, if Meadow Lane is... I assume the offering is more robust than Rigor Hill.

Much bigger than Rigor Hill.

[laughs]

The inside is nicer, but I think Rigor Hill-

Hearing all the names of these places together in the same sentence just cracks me up. It sounds like I'm watching a horse race.

The amount of times I've been dragged to Rigor Hill by my w- I'm like, "I can't. Alex, I can't do this. Like, I can't. I hate this place." Even though it's good as hell. The product is really good. That chocolate chip cookie is one for the record books.

Okay. Really quick and we'll move on. What is, what is the correlation between a chicken salad and Ohio State University?

It's the Ohio State University, and people are crazy about it. Like, you have to say the Ohio State University, and it's the chicken salad. Everywhere at Meadow Lane, all the signage-

Got it

... the chicken salad.

Got it, got it, got it, got it, got it.

Like, when they announce, when they announce, you know, where an NFL player went to college, they'll be like, "Oh, University of Georgia, University of Texas, the Ohio State." It's like a, they, that's how they say it.

And they're incredibly annoying about it. My... I wanna go back to transportation logistics 'cause my highlight-

Let's get into it

... of the year on transportation logistics is I'm leaving LA, lunchtime-And I'm checking out Waymo. You know, this is like April or something, so Waymo LA, everyone was super excited.

Early days.

Early mover, of course, in the space.

Trying to take Waymo to LAX, they won't do it.

They don't get on the highway, right?

Now they do, but they didn't then.

Now they do it. Okay

And they don't go to the airport. They... I Waymo'd to the In-N-Out next to LAX.

[laughs]

Had a burger, had a shake, and then walked into the airport, which like arriving at LAX on foot is an experience.

Dude, that's-

[laughs]

... that's actually very cool and-

So you're hoofing it with the Rimowa up the freeway on-ramp to get-

[laughs]

... into the, the arrivals or departures?

I got the Briggs & Riley, Jason. I'm not-

My bad

... I'm not at your guys' levels.

[laughs]

That's how mu- he's a re-

Okay

... he's a real wasp, Jason. He's a real wasp. He doesn't have that, he doesn't have our little play play shit, so-

I'm traveling with luggage you can't even pronounce, Jason.

[laughs] The real question to me, Paul, is you're willing to get on a six-hour flight with a belly full of In-N-Out, that seems... Having a milkshake before flying is crazier to me than walking to LAX for me, In-N-Out.

[laughs] I'm not like thoughtful about what I eat when.

[laughs]

I don't know if I should be. My wife is very, my wife likes to like eat i- eat dinner early and like the digestion, you know, she's-

Mm-hmm

... is all about di- it doesn't occur to me. I'm like, I had Kraft Mac and Cheese at like 9:30 the other night.

I'm not mindful about my intake.

You're telling me, you're telling me that a woman t- cares about digestion? I don't, I don't know if I believe-

[laughs]

... I don't know if I believe you. I do- I've never heard any of them talk about that.

Okay, so a follow-up, have you heard there's this app called Uber where the car is a, it's a-

[laughs]

... it's a person driving it and not a AI, but it'll take you right to the curb and you don't have to walk on, so.

So you think I should have Ubered from In-N-Out?

I think you should Ubered from your hotel and they just take you right there.

No, I wanted the Waymo, I wanted the Waymo experience.

Paul, Paul, how far... No, no, how far was the walk from fucking Animal Style to LAX?

[laughs] It was, it was longer than I thought it was gonna be.

[laughs]

[laughs]

And it was like-

Big airport

... the fumes-

Looks, looks smaller from the plane

... of airport. Like I [laughs] you did feel like you were kind of in the end of the world.

A lot of jet fuel going on in the world over there.

Did you, but did you... A- and the other question I have, and this is something that's very particular to me, did you break a sweat?

No, I didn't break a sweat. I don't remember what the weather was, but it wasn't like, it was not like the sun was-

Okay

... beaming down-

'Cause that, 'cause that to me-

... and you know

... like tomorrow I w- tomorrow, uh, I will take the Elizabeth line from Clerkenwell to Heathrow and it's 40 minutes instead of an hour and 15 minutes in the car.

And the Elizabeth line makes you feel good about the world. It makes you think like we can do things.

It's nice. No, it's, I know.

Yeah.

We can do this. Every... But I, I just mean that if, if it was the middle of the summer, that 12-minute walk to the train station, I can't do that. I, 'cause I show up sweating and then I'm, and then I'm a, a, an-

Mm

... eight-hour flight or whatever, I, I, I can't.

Eight-hour flight with the s- with the soggy B- Bottega? Oh, yeah.

I ca- exactly. I, I can't take off my Bottega leather jacket. It's woven of course, but I, I-

[laughs]

... it gets so hot, but it's part of the look.

The Chrome Hearts boxer briefs get a little musty-

[laughs] When you wear-

... in the-

My leather Chrome Hearts boxer briefs-

... in the humid summer months

... if you, if I, if I d- if you believe me, they get a little musty.

Okay, Paul, what's, what's the In-N-Out order? Heads wanna know.

Honestly, I just do-

And be very specific

... I just do a double cheeseburger, ketchup, fries, black and white shake. And I always get a kick out of when you order a black and white shake at In-N-Out, they call it-

Hey, let's not make this about, let's not make this about race, bro. I don't wanna, I don't wanna do that. Like it's just a milkshake. Let's not-

I think everyone deserves a milkshake, but go ahead, Paul.

[laughs]

They either order a vanilla milkshake and add chocolate or they order a chocolate milkshake and add vanilla.

Oh.

But they can't press the button black and white shake.

Wow.

They don't have that button.

I never really, uh, thought of that philosophically.

You wanted me to say Animal Style on lettuce, da, da, da, da. Give me a break.

Well, hold on.

Give me a break.

Is this, is, so-

Play the hits, Jason.

So what-

Play the hits

... but, but what-

Ketchup

... but what you're saying, what you're saying about the milkshake then, that is what we in the business would call a little hack. If, if you... Like that's not, everybody doesn't know that. You're saying black and white is for the heads on Reddit? Or is this something that's like publicly-

I think you can walk up and order a black and white shake, but they're not, they're not equipped to just smash that button.

I understand.

I don't know if it's up on that menu above. I know definitely-

That was, that's my question

... vanilla, chocolate, strawberry are up there.

It's not, yeah, it's not on the menu that you can, you, you, that you can do a combo of them. It'll just be vanilla, chocolate, strawberry.

I've never, I've never really eat, I've never really eaten at In-N-Out because they don't have a veggie burger, and a grilled cheese to me is for children. Uh, but the, my question is within it, like what is the... What do you think makes it so good?

I mean, I'm... Jason's our, you know, real food snob on the call. I would say for me-

Yeah, yeah, but I've heard J- I've heard Jason talk about it for 10 years. I'm, I'm just-

[laughs]

For me it's the fri- for me it's the fries.

Okay.

For me it's that the fries, you know, they're freshly made in-house. They feel kinda like a little more held together. I don't know if it's like that they were cut not that long ago and so it's a little more rigid.

Hmm.

I like the salt. Um, and then the burger, like I think it's a little thin, but that bun's really good. And you put two of the patties on and I think you're there. I think In-N-Out also to me it's just like as a New Yorker visiting California-

Yeah, yeah, yeah

... obviously Christian you're not quite, uh, joining the rest of us, but I think it's like just you have to do it.

Mm-hmm.

When you're in LA you have to.

I, I, I th- I think that's actually what their, what's incredible about their business model is that feeling that you just described, and that that is almost universal to a certain-

Definitely

... type of person.

Well, I, I think you were, you were talking about it earlier about elevated small luxuries, and I think that a Double-Double Animal Style fries well done and a black and white, that's, you know, you could reach culinary mouth nirvana for, you know, nine bucks as the crow flies. And-

Yeah

... in a time where nine bucks doesn't get you the bathroom key at McDonald's, you know what I mean?

Totally. And we, so we have Infatuation folks all over the country and in London, and what's interesting at the end of the year they kinda write different trends and themes that they're seeing. And that theme of kinda like-Small luxuries, retail therapy is so in all-

Yeah

... of the markets. And I don't know, Chris, if you made it to Corner Shop 180 in London, but that place opened this summer, and-

Oh, I haven't. I kn- I'm very aware of it. I'm very aware of it.

I mean, if I have to hear more about freshly churned buttermilk-

Mm

... I don't know about you guys, but-

That's some British ass shit right there

I'd fuck with that

... that's what they're lining, that's what they're lining up for.

That's because they still, they still ride horses to work, so it's kind of-

[laughs]

... I mean, it makes sense. I, I think that... But, but Corner Shop 180, which looks amazing and was started by someone who has good, you know, she has good taste, she has a brand, you know, it's clear what you're gonna get, that's also just another Erewhon-esque, or is, is it... It's probably, I would say it's more comparable to Meadow Lane.

It feels definitely like London's answer to Erewhon. All of these things are some place's answer to Erewhon, and they're each gonna have a local flavor. And yeah, I think Corner Shop 180 is great. I also just think this phenomenon of like, same with, you know, the really luxury pizza, and people like Siri is what they're charging, and the complexity of like put your name down, come back at this time, get your pie.

Mm-hmm.

Christie's, which is one of our best new restaurants in New York, incredible pizza. You know, tell yourself a few years ago that a cheese pie is, you know, 36 bucks or whatever.

[laughs]

Um, it's definitely not everyone's going to Cove and doing the tasting menu and getting the drink pairing, you know, the juice pairing like Chris Black.

[laughs]

But I think people wanna have these luxuries in their lives. Um, and if it's a, a smaller price point but still feels like, oh, these are really high quality ingredients, this is a place that-

Totally

... has a great vibe-

Totally

... like people are down to spend on that.

I mean, I'm like that too. Like, I, I mean, I like that too. Everybody likes it. I just, I just, the stranglehold it has on us as a society is kinda crazy. You know, that like I, like people that, that are... People are choosing to spend their money on stuff like that instead of st- [laughs] stuff that maybe s- maybe seems more maybe necessary is, is a word I would use. Or, uh, the treat culture has gone far.

Yeah. We got... Seattle, for me, was the peak when I was reading through all the trends and kind of things people were pointing to from the year. We got an $11 iced matcha with a dollop of banana pudding-

[laughs]

... that's spooned from a glass casserole dish. And that's the... To me, that's like peak matcha.

Okay.

And maybe we can, maybe we can move on to something else next.

No, no, no, no, we shan... Well, when, on this s- specific subject, I was watching you on, uh, on the Squawk Box last week-

Let's go

... talking about some of these similar things and, and talking about the elevated small luxuries, and you were explaining it. And the woman on there, I, I don't remember what her name was, but she said, "So the logic is I can't afford a vacation, so I'll buy an $11 matcha with banana pudding on top." And I think is, is that the root of this problem? Is that why we all need a tiny little $12 treat every day on the way home from work, or else our life is truly pure shit? Not to bring it down.

I don't know that I'd go that far. I mean, I think-

[laughs]

... definitely one thing we've seen this year... So a lot of people use Infatuation as they're planning trips, and they're-

Yeah, yeah

... looking around, not just for where they live, but where they're visiting.

Mm.

So the pe- so the people that don't DM Jason, they use The Infatuation.

[laughs] Yeah, exactly.

They, they c- okay, got it, got it, got it.

I've been sending them over to your website though.

That's why I'm on, all right? If you're in Jason's DMs, just come to us. Sorry, guys.

[laughs]

Um, but we've definitely seen, you know, road trips, people wanting to go in the vicinity of where they live, maybe not the two-week-

Mm-hmm

... kinda Ischia operation, but get out, do the Pacific Coast Highway, go up to the Catskills, um, hit the lakes around Chicago.

Mm-hmm.

Like we've definitely seen that road trip phenomenon, and-

Lesbian cafe bang bang road trip up in Hudson Valley.

Yeah. [laughs]

Love that.

[laughs]

The Ojai, like man, what a story on Ojai. Were we talking about Ojai 10 years ago? I mean-

I think so. I mean, I, I, I've, I famously have never been to Ojai, and it's, it's gone on long enough.

And that's by choice?

It's a little bit by choice.

That's like you're sticking to it.

Well, before I was just like, what, what, what, why go there when I can go to Palm Springs?

What is it exactly I think is the question-

[laughs]

... that many, many people have asked.

And then as I got older, like, like my wife Carolyn, who knows me very well, she was like, "I've been to Ojai, you know, it's, you're not gonna like it. Like, just don't bother," kinda thing. And now that it's grown in popularity, there's like, oh, now we have a new restaurant, and the chef is from Little Dom's, and it's basically like we're bringing Los Feliz to Ojai. And then at that point, why am I even-

And that keeps pushing. Now that's pushing all the way to Santa Ynez.

Yes.

Yeah.

So then, but then like-

With that general store and-

I, I want a getaway, I want a weekend getaway where I don't run into anybody I know.

Yeah.

Where I don't know the DJ playing in the lobby, and there isn't a popup from a guy-

Jason

... that follows me on Instagram.

That's why, that's why you gotta go to the Republican Ritz over there in Palm Springs. You won't see anybody you know. That's the, that's the secret. That's the low-key secret.

That's what I'm working on.

I will say Rory's Place is really good. I think, I'm sure you guys have done Bell's, you know, in Los Alamitos.

Yeah, I li- I went to Bell's pretty recently actually, and I, I liked it.

The California road trip dining situation is excellent.

The thing-

And that's that

... the only reason to go to, I wanna go to-

Harbor House Inn up there

... I wanna go to Ojai to, for the new hotel. That's the only reason I wanna go there. Like I don't, I, I think that like I, I don't... There is nothing to do, Jason.

But I, I, I'm gonna go there, I'm gonna feel like I just went out in, in Hollywood when I go there. It's the same food, the same people, the same music, the same decor, but we now it's next to a mountain two hours away.

Yeah, I mean, I think that-

Not for me

... I don't know-

I wanna be trans- transformed and-

Well, Palm Springs-

... in to a whole new land

... we all like Palm Springs, but it's also a dump. Like I, I love it, and I would choose to go there every time. I don't even know why. Like I literally, I literally don't know what I like about it.

You can't replace the desert energy. It's a feeling, bro.

There, there's just something... There, I, that's how I feel about most places though. I know pretty quick, like this is for me or this isn't, you know? Like I, like within 10 hours I'm like, you know what? I never need to come here again, or I'm gonna come here for the rest of my life. There's sorta no middle ground.

Are you guys tennis guys? Are you tennis guys?

Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm. The Indian Wells operation, I mean, obviously tennis now every tournament everywhere has become a huge thing, but Indian Wells is one of the most impressive sporting events anybody's putting on.

Jason DJ'd. Didn't you DJ last... Was that last year?

Yeah, I DJ'd a party with Racket Magazine last year, and a lot of people thought I was Djokovic for whatever reason. [laughs]

For, I like for whatever reason.

But yeah, it's an amazing operation. You know, the good people at Amex really do a good job over there at Indian Wells.

[laughs] No, that's, that's Larry Ellison. It's Ellison's-

Is it?

... brainchild. Yeah, he-

No, they, they do it right, right over there

... he's got Indian Wells, and then he's got his Sensai, you know, that spa resort operation-

Mm. Yeah

... that he's running out there. But-

It's ni- it's nice to be there in the middle, like, in, in a literal oasis in the middle of just empty fields, and you just see that Nobu sign, and you're like, "Wow-

I know

... I'm home."

He's run that play in Lanai also, which is even crazier. I mean, you're literally on this, like-

Right

... island with nothing, and then there's the Four Seasons, and there's the Nobu. And-

Bro, that's, that's-

... Larry, Larry's home

... th- I mean, if I had that kind of bread, that's exactly what I would do.

[laughs]

Where do I wanna go, and what do I want to be there? That's it. Like, w- we'll do those two things.

I want, bring the spicy tuna crispy rice to me. I don't care if this place has no running water or electricity.

[laughs]

Um, okay. So y- we were talking about, um, about the, the, the pizza and the waiting in line for all that stuff. And when I, when I have walked past S- Siri's, Sirius, how's, how's it pronounced exactly?

Sirius.

Sirius.

Sirius.

Wow, right when I said that, my phone thought I was saying Siri. "Hey, Siri, why, h- why are you, why is your line so long?" Any-

[laughs]

But whenever I walk past that line, when, when I walk past people in line for, like, certain things, like line culture is very big in New York. You'll... There, every weekend, there's a Reformation sale, or a new boba place, or w- Rice to Riches or whatever it is.

Chris Black waiting for an appointment at STOFA.

Yeah, that's me.

[laughs]

I need some pants, more flowy. Can I just stand outside?

[laughs]

Do they come in suede?

But you can, you can see where, or if, you know, I'm, I'm waiting in line for a somber album signing or whatever, and you can see the level of fun. Like, because we, we, Chris and I joke around a lot about, like, I think people s- are starting, like, we're so fucked, people want to stand in lines. Like, they don't know what to do, so the line offers them some structure in their life or whatever. But when I walk past that pizza place, Sirius, everyone in line looks, it's look, looks like a methadone clinic.

[laughs] What is Revolve Man, Jason? It's... Oh, funny you ask.

What's a Revolve Man?

It's a R- a place where guys who care about how they look go to shop. Revolve Man is stocked with only the elevated essentials and trend-forward styles from brands like Polo, Ralph Lauren, Salomon, Fear of God Essentials for our hoopers out there, and more. It's not fast fashion, and it's not stuffy. It's the sweet spot between looking intentional and not looking like you tried too hard. That's what we're all trying to accomplish out here, Jason. New arrivals drop twice a week with free two-day shipping and next-day options. Plus, returns are genuinely easy.

Genuinely, yeah. It's one of those things, we're all busy. Let's say we got an important dinner coming up at the end of the week. It's Tuesday. You're working every single day. You don't have time to go shopping and try clothes on and blah, blah, blah, or even just browse. You know, Revolve, it's all there. It's all curated for what you want, and then you click buy, you go to bed. Couple days later, that shows up in packaging that's a little nicer than the, the other places you're buying clothes from, and you've got a nice look for the big night out. And then you're like, "Wait a minute, I don't even have to return this because I enjoy this clothing and I wanna wear it again another time," versus all those dumb other websites. So whether it's a big night out, a wedding, a trip, or you just need something last-minute that actually works, Revolve Man always has it. Go to revolveman.com/howlong to shop and use code HOWLONG for 15% off your order, free two-day shipping, easy returns. It just makes everything easier. That is revolve.com/howlong, and use the promo code HOWLONG to get 15% off your entire order. Offer ends soon. Don't sleep on it. And you don't need clothes too. You can get just, you know, a cool candle or an incense gift for a baby shower, whatever it is, revolve.com/howlong.

Hi, Talk House network listeners. It's your old friend Nels Cline from Wilco here. Wilco is touring this summer, and we'd love to see you somewhere on the road. We're playing shows this June and July in Rochester Hills, Michigan; Chautauqua, New York; Lafayette, New York; Bethlehem, Pennsylvania; Vienna, Virginia; Forest Hills, New York; Portland, Maine; Tulsa, Oklahoma; Memphis, Tennessee; LaGrange, Georgia; Charleston, South Carolina; Virginia Beach, Virginia; Wheeling, West Virginia; and Columbus, Ohio. Plus, there are even more dates, some with Willie Nelson, that I didn't even mention here. So please go to wilcoworld.net to see the full list of dates. We'll see you on the road this summer.

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Like, you guys are waiting in line for arguably the best pizza available in America, and you're about to- you're moments away from sinking your teeth into it. You've got your hard-earned money. You're ready to go. This is supposed to be a celebration, and everyone looks so, like, they don't belong there. Like, "I shouldn't be waiting in line. I shouldn't have to wait for food." It's also dark, but then you see s- like, a boba pop-up or the Reformation sale, everyone's smiling, happy, can't wait. You know, it's like when the iPhone first came out and everyone was like- That, that was a real sense of community, I should say

You know what's a very sneaky line to watch? The Whitney Museum... I have two kids, and the Whitney Museum does this, like, kids drawing class on Saturday mornings. And because of, like, kids' naps and timing and whatever, like, people like to be there right at 10:00 when it opens.

Mm-hmm.

And the enthusiasm that these toddlers have at, like, 9:58 standing in front of the Whitney waiting for it to open is probably the energy we should all have. Like, if you're gonna wait online-

No, that's-

... that's the vibe that you should have.

Paul, that's exactly... 'Cause Equinox doesn't open till 8:00 on Sundays.

[laughs]

Let me tell you something, us, we're, uh, the, the, the few, the proud that are standing outside that Equinox before the doors open, it's the same thing. It's a childlike energy of excitement-

I love it

... that we're, we're ready to get in there.

If you know that it opens at 8:00, why don't you just go there after 8:00?

Well, no, you get there... I get... I try to time it for 8:0- you know, whatever. I get there at 7:53-

Right, right, right

... 'cause I'm walking so fast.

He wants the moisturizer to himself, right? [laughs]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

I mean, I think-

Treadmill number 12 is kind of mine, so I have to be there early.

I, I've walked by that line a few times. I love that pizza, and I think that place is really good. I just don't... I think I- we've talked about this a lot on the show and, um, Paul, I'm sure you have some insight on this, but sort of, like, how this kind of stuff affects an actual business because the people that you want to eat there can't eat there, basically. [laughs]

[laughs]

And it's only the people that are willing to blow two hours waiting in line, and I, I... That has to be discouraging for the restaurateur or the chef because it's like, obviously you're making more money, so it's sick.

It's, it's the same thing as a place where it's like we do, we release 12 burgers a day.

Yeah, yeah.

Are you sub-tweeting Dun's More? Are you sub-tweeting? How do we feel about Dun's More's burger policy?

I'll s- I'll say it on r- no, Dun's More is j- I hate. The worst restaurant I've ever been to.

No. Are you serious?

Uh, I like the Dun's More-

I hate it. I went off of that

... I like the Dun's More bar. We, yeah, Chris and I don't like the actual restaurant. Uh, the bar around the corner, I mean, the crowd is, is bad because it's a bunch of people trying to get the burger.

You mean the crowd waiting for the burger.

And also eating the burger. Once they're in eating, like-

Okay

... it's all, like, it's all bad. Like, you can't get in.

[laughs] So are you okay with the main dining room crowd?

Um-

Like, you think there's meaningfully different crowds?

I only went there once, and I, I, I went... I've, I've eaten in Dun's More once or twice, and I did not enjoy my experience there.

There's a couple restaurants-

Most people love it, though

... Paul, I w- I won't go back to.

Oh.

That's, that's one of them.

I don't, I don't like the fact that it's community seating.

Communal.

I don't like the fact that it's beer and wine only.

It's not all communal.

I mean, I could sit at the, I could sit at the hearth at the bar.

We're going in January. I'm, I'm coming out in January.

I'll go with you.

And I'm gonna, I'm gonna sell you guys on... [laughs]

Why would I go there, why would I go there when I could g- I could... I'd r- literally rather go to Erawan and have buffalo cauliflower. Literally.

Ooh, yummy.

I would rather do that. It costs less, and I don't have to drive 45 minutes to the end of the Earth.

Well, but, but going, going back to the burger of it all part, like, the, the bar, the Dun's More bar around the corner, there's people w- who have created an interesting menu. I had some really good, like, pickled mussels on Bub and Grandma's bread and a good cocktail or a good martini, a good glass of wine, and you're surrounded by people who are waiting to get a burger, ordered a burger, finished a bur- like, they're all in different forms of burger eating.

Yeah, mm-hmm.

Some of... They're, they're all filming themselves.

[laughs]

Some of them have-

I never had the burger. Now I feel bad. I, I'm gonna sta- I'm a head for the cornbread, and they got one of the best steaks in America, like, no doubt.

Corn- yeah, the cornbread is good, but it's, you know... To me, it's a one-biter. You're, you're eating four sticks of butter and some cornbread. It's good, but it's, it's a w- it's a one-bite treat for me.

I don't know, I don't know how, Paul, I don't know how you keep that nice, thin, wiry frame eating all this, eating all this shit you're talking about. You ever eat anything healthy, or is it bad boy only?

I, um, I try and stay healthy at lunch, I would say. Lunch is pretty healthy.

Okay, you keep it light. Just some sashimi.

So genetics. Got it.

Something... Yeah, g- [laughs] something, something clean.

[laughs] Nice.

I mean, so you guys are talking about, though, Dun's More has, like, h- they give out, they, they make a certain amount of burgers per night, and that's known, so people are going there to try to get one.

And a, and a lot of places do that. There's a spot in New York I was just reading about.

Yeah, sure, sure.

And they were... Uh, to me, like you were saying, like, the food doesn't go to the people they want it to go to. The food goes to the people who are willing to eat dinner at 3:30 PM on a Tuesday. And just like, "Oh, I w- I'm gonna get this burger, so I'm gonna go wait in line for f- three hours to get it and eat it," like, the whole... It's, it's sold out before dinner time begins.

Yeah.

You know?

But let's unpack 'cause there's a few things there. Like, one, if you have a restaurant that's popular enough to do that kind of business, like, you are happy because most restaurants, it's not working, and it's not working that way.

Are you... I don't think any sh- I don't think any chef is happy.

[laughs]

But I understand what you're saying. I understand what you mean.

If there's a line of people, if, if there's a surplus of, uh-

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah

... of course, of course.

Or, uh-

Two-

... in these trying times

... for sure, restaurant people, chefs, restaurateurs, they want regulars, and that balance of when a place goes viral, like, how do you take care of the people who wanna show up to be part of a trend, and how do you build regulars who might be there for you as that trend fades, I think is a very tricky balance. I think what you see a lot of places doing is having different times of the night end up with different mixes of clientele.

Ah, sure, sure.

Mm-hmm. You can only get the burger at 4:00 and at 11:30 at night. Like that kind of thing?

Yeah.

Chris, I mean, the p- the pizza you were ta- Chrissy's, it was, like, what, after 11:00 PM at, uh, Superiority Burger is how you could get the pizza? I don't know.

Chrissy's, so they came out of the gate hard with, like, a big line and a lot of angst about how long you have to wait.

Wait, are, did that not, did that not start as a thing that you would get at Superiority Burger? Like, he would be there at, like, after a certain time and make the... I th- I really thought-

Hmm

... that's where that s- that was the original.

I think you may be right. It definitely had some pop-up incarnations along the way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Before the, before the... Okay, I just wanna make sure I'm not thinking about something else.

They now, to be fair to them, they let you order online and, like, pick your time that you wanna pick up.

That's nice.

And, like, Chrissy's has made getting their pizza totally smooth.

Is it ba- is it banging?

Yeah, it's really good. It's really, really good. And they've got- they've been doing some New Haven tomato pies-

Mm. Mm

... which have been really-

How far? Where is it though

... um, stunning. Greenpoint. Greenpoint.

Okay. Wow, okay. But wow, edging out OG Paulie Gee? They're trying to get his ass out of there. They said, "All right o- old, old man." [laughs]

I'll go anywhere by ferry, man. If I can get to you by ferry-

That's actually a good- that's a good policy. I wanna try that though because I, I am a, a Zaza lover, but I think that-

No, it's really good

... I think, but I think you're making a good point. If, if the re- if the restaurant's making that much money everybody's gotta be m- mostly happy.

Yeah. But I mean, I, I, if, if I was a restaurateur, I would not be happy if I work really hard and I want the right people eating my food, the people who really like it and love it, and they're friends, and they're cool, and blah blah blah. Not just people who are only eating your food to mine it for content, and where people who would rather be eating it in their car on, on selfie cam versus with their friends having a delicious meal.

Don't talk about my, don't talk about my favorite guy, the Crumbl guy, who tries the new Crumbls every week.

Yeah.

He sits in his car and he's got a big glass of milk, and he tries every cookie.

Yeah.

That's the good stuff.

Days until he kills himself probably.

You guys see People Magazine, you could see People Magazine like top food things in America from this year. And big thanks to you guys, EatsCon right in there in the top, um, I think we were in the second spot.

Oh, wow. [clears throat]

Crumbl in like the third or fourth spot. It hit a little different. [laughs] Hit a little-

Y'all beat... I'm actually, I'm actually surprised anyone beat Crumbl. I feel like Crumbl-

You and, you and Jason did

... I, I think there was more to... [laughs] There's a little more to it.

I'm better than Crumbl.

But if y- e- yeah, the Cr- I've never had a Crumbl actually. I've only had, what's the, uh, Levain is, is too, it's a scone. That's not a cookie.

So big. It, yeah.

It's not a cookie. It's a different thing.

The Levain, I love the Levain chocolate walnut. They used to make them frozen. They were better than when you get them fresh, when you make them at home. But-

Meaning you-

... yeah, the Crumbls for peo-

... you bought the cookie frozen or you bought the dough frozen?

You used to be able to buy the, like a box of the cookies, like par-baked at, like Whole Foods in the freezer section. You put them in the oven for 10 minutes and they, they came out better than when I order them in Manhattan.

What does par, what does, what does par-baked mean? Like they're already, you don't-

Just like halfway, partially.

Oh, I see. Okay.

Partially.

Oh, I see. Okay, okay, okay. That makes sense.

The last point I'd make on lines is, and hopefully this is a place where people find infatuation in Jason's Instagram useful, is there are so many places to go.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. [laughs]

And definitely-

It doesn't have to be this way, y'all

... what we're proud of is like the breadth and depth of our coverage, and we got reviews on places that nobody else has been to. We got guides to neighborhoods and cuisines that nobody else is covering. And I think hopefully one of the things people can do on infatuation and on our social and everything else is see spots they don't already know about-

Yeah

... and push out into different parts of the city, push out to different cuisines, different places.

I just want shit that is-

And there's-

There's a noodle pudding or something crazy like that

... I want shit that is neighborhood specific. That's what I, like I don't-

We got it. Go like infatuation Clerkwell.

I know, I know, I know.

Like [laughs]

No, I know. That's what I'm saying. I think that when it's like general by city, it's like, "All right, bro. Like what the fuck am I gonna do with that? Like I'm in London. There's a fucking million restaurants-

Yeah

... and everything takes an hour to get to. I need something a little more localized, you know?" And I think-

Have you hit Luca? Have you hit Luca?

No, I go to the same five places when I'm here.

All right.

I'm all good. I go, I, I'm good. I don't need to, I don't need to take the Tube for another hour to try something else.

No, Luca's in Clerkwell. Like you're probably-

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh

... like sitting on top of it. But-

I'm literally, yeah, I'm there right now.

Yeah. [laughs]

I'm actually there right now.

She Clerk on my well till I Luca. Okay, let's, let's move on.

[laughs]

We've talked about for the last couple of years in a, in our post-COVID dining world, they'll say 6:00 PM is the new 8:00 PM in terms of a dinner reservation. And I think in the last year, six months to a year, it's turning into 4:00 PM, 5:00 PM is maybe the new 6:00 PM. How much of that do you think is because people kinda have no more social or don't have a social life anymore? And how much of that is, you know, we're listening to these wellness gurus saying we have to go to bed at 9:00 PM, and we have to eat dinner four or five hours before we go to sleep? So you do the math, and now we're all eating dinner at f- at 4:30, watching a HBO show, and going to bed at, at 8, 9:00 every day.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's probably all of the above, right? It might be easier to get a reservation. Some people think it's healthier. You might save money with a happy hour menu.

Yeah.

If you're someone who's part of return to office at a lot of big companies, you might just wanna grab something as you leave the office, 5:00, 5:30, 6:00, instead of like going home or going to the gym with Chris and then heading back out.

Mm.

Um, I definitely think that's one of the big shifts over the past few years in my time at Infatuation is like just when people wanted to go out was always in my mind like a 7:00, 7:30, 8:00 o'clock situation, and then you'd have some European friends who wanted to do later.

Mm-hmm.

And now so often if you suggest something 7:00, 7:30, people are like, "Oh, that's a little late. Like, can we do earlier?"

Mm-hmm.

Those people are me. Those people are me.

[laughs]

I got 8:00 o'clock tonight and I'm fucking ca- I'm like-

But d-

... I gotta have a snack

... to me, but it's also n- it's not just food and eating. Like-

Yeah, it's everything

... back in the day, go, you would go out to a bar, or a club, or a party, or an event, and everything started at 10:00 PM. And now the i- like I went to a, a Robin concert last night. It was like a, kind of a private event kinda thing. If it said doors at 10:00 PM, I don't think anyone would've gone. You know what I mean? It's like-

It's the appeal of the European wedding, by the way. The like-

Mm.

I mean, Americans love a European wedding 'cause then they get to come back and say like, "Yeah, we were out till 7:00 AM."

[laughs]

Beethoven Market, which obviously like lit up Mar Vista this year, and we were-

[laughs]

... definitely part of that. Apologies to the, apologies to the neighbors-

Lit up, lit up Mar Vista

... who are like-

... is something I've never heard. [laughs]

Mar Vista is fucked out now, bro.

Lit up Mar Vista.

I mean, you're just, good luck

[laughs] You should have seen the, the strollers

I sa- Mar Vista th- is the Atwater Village of the West Side

The stroller parking at Beethoven Market is one of the great sights in Los Angeles

You know, I've never been. I haven't been to Beethoven yet

I've never even heard of this place

Beethoven Market, a kinda neighborhood Italian place. One of our best new restaurants in LA this year. Really, really good, and also very much a neighborhood spot that the whole city decided they had to descend on in the same, like-

Mm-hmm

... month of time. And so, kinda humorously became, like, a really hard reservation to get, and there was a lot of, like-

Mm-hmm

... people just kinda waiting out on the streets, and car parking. It became a lot of drama in the neighborhood, um, but it's a great spot. And they open at 4:00, and that place is full at 4:15, 4:30.

I just-

Yeah

... I don't like anything that... I don't need to try anything that bad. Like, I don't-

[laughs]

I just don't, man. I just don't

And you can, and y- and, and you're a person who does not cook or-

Yeah

... even want to or know how to

Yeah. Like, I have n- I, I just find that to be... I like to try the new places, of course. Like, I r- I like to keep up and know what's going on, and it's fun, a- and I, I think the experience is, is, you know, always worth it whether you actually like the food or not. You know what I'm saying? That's the whole point. But man, there's something about, like... Or the way people travel and they have four meals a day 'cause they gotta travel. I'm like, I, I can't... At a certain point it's gotta be diminishing returns. Don't you just wanna eat something you like at a time you wanna eat it?

Well, we're in a time where we don't want to... We don't eat restaurants because we like the food and, or w- want to try it. We're, we're doing all... We're going to four different spots or driving to-

For the, for the flick

... a small neighborhood to get s- spaghetti and meatballs so we can have an opinion about it when people ask us, you know?

Yeah.

And I think there's something for everyone, to be fair. I think there's a group of people-

Totally. Totally, totally

... in that world, and I think there's a lot of people walking into Bar Pitti, which is one of my, like, lifelong favorites in New York, with no drama. You wait a couple minutes-

Mm

... you talk to the guys, you get your rigatoni pitti, you have fun, you're out of there in 45 minutes, and you're moving on with your night. And there's nothing wrong with that kinda night either.

No, I agree, and they have the, they have the best uniforms in the world at, at Bar Pitti. One of the weirdest uniforms ever created for a restaurant. And I would like, I always like to shout that out when I can.

Some of the best side spinach also.

Oh, that spinach is-

Spinach is good

... unbelievable.

Unbelievable.

One of the only edible things on the menu there

Oh, Jason, don't bring us down. [laughs]

He doesn't e- I knew he didn't like that. I like, I like-

But I, but, but also that being said, even though I don't enjoy the food there, or I'm not impressed by it or not wooed by its, uh, you know, magic, it's a restaurant that I'll gladly go to any time because it has that energy of like, like, not everyone can get in, but there's no reservation, but there's no walk-ins. Anyone is welcome, but not everyone gets a table, and it's like, you know, it's like going to a club. And like, somebody is deciding where you're gonna sit based on your vibe, not necessarily if you're hot or famous. But like-

I think you're making Pitti, I think you're making Pitti feel a little cooler than it is. But-

Okay. Well, let's, let's do Giorgio Baldi as an example, or Chateau Marmont. Like, if you go on Resy or OpenTable-

Oh, yeah

... it'll s- they'll be on there, but you can't get a, a res. But-

Giorgio Baldi are better than that. Giorgio Baldi, we're phone only.

Phone only.

Pick up the phone.

Really?

And that's what I like.

I like that.

Yeah. I think we're gonna come back to that, if we haven't started already. I, I wouldn't be surprised if people started being-

It's coming back

... phone, phone only

... it's coming back a little bit. AI will answer it, but yeah, it's coming back.

I did a thing with Danny Meyer earlier in the year, and somebody in the audience asked him, like, "What's one thing you don't like about restaurants right now, or one thing you wish would change?" And he just said, "Every restaurant needs a phone number. And answer your phone." Like, it's just become too hard to reach, and I don't wanna-

Well, I mean, I've, I re- I remember trying to change something or adjust something and being like, "Oh, there's no phone number. I have to DM a restaurant and hope that so-"

[laughs]

Like, it's insane

Info @-

Look, it's, it's a, it's a very Boomer thing to want a phone because every young person is afraid of f- when, you know, when their phone rings you get a panic attack, and texting is better.

Totally. I just mean from a, I just mean from a business standpoint. Like, not even... Even if it's a text, even, I just from a business standpoint, not having a phone is, it seems bad.

It could be a little bit of a post-COVID thing as well, where it's like, oh, we used to have a dining room and we used to have, like, employees that would clean the tables and serve you the food, and blah, blah, blah. And after COVID it's like we're, we're a hole in a wall. You give us the money, you tap it with your phone and we hand you a bag, and you leave. It's the same k- like, if you can do that, if you can live without paying somebody to answer the phones, and getting the phone service, and having the hours, and coming in early, if you can avoid that, why not?

And the volume is a lot. The Borgo guys, who are, like, real hospitality-

Yeah, yeah, yeah

... you know, they wanna do things the right way, they had a phone number for a long time, and then the volume of calls-

Oh, shut up [laughs]

... as the, they just couldn't keep-

[laughs]

They were like, "We're gonna need-

Shut it down

... like a call center" [laughs]

Yeah, they were too early. Yeah. They're gonna, they're gonna need a, a McNally call center-

[laughs]

... for one restaurant, not six or whatever. I mean, I, I just, I, yeah. I, I don't... I know it is Boomer shit, but at a certain point, like, it also makes things easier for the customer, and this is the hospitality business.

Yeah. I lo- I mean, when I'm late for Horses because Carolyn forgot her eyedrops, I love texting the inanimate phone number in my messages and saying like, "Oh, yo, we're late. I need to get eyedropsAnd then the hostess on her iPad writes back, "Oh, I have eye drops if you guys want them." You know, like, yeah, I, I kind of like that if you get a human on the other end versus press one for yes, press two for no, kind of thing.

And people should know, you can reply to those texts.

Mm-hmm.

When you get the, like, you're due at Horses in one hour, that is a human being on the other side if you reply.

And I like fucking with them. I say, "Maybe I'll be there, maybe I won't."

I never respond to those texts because they text too goddamn much, and I know the restaurants-

[laughs]

... can control that shit. It's like a, it's like a politician trying-

Too damn high

... it's like a politician trying to get money for their campaign the way they text me. It's, it's j-

Dude, I was so happy when the election was over just to stop getting those texts.

I get enough-

Dude

... I get enough robocalls as it is, but the, the texting from the reservation stuff is like, I get you're due in an hour. Anything else I don't want. Why am I-

[laughs]

... I don't need to confirm.

What about, what about, "Hey, press one to confirm"-

No, 'cause I made the-

... like, "We'll see you tomorrow"

... no, I made the reservation because I'm gonna go. If I wanna cancel a reservation, I will get in touch with you to cancel it. That's my... I mean, I guess people, I guess, I guess-

All right, well, Keith, Keith would tell you that not everybody does that

... that's, um, I know that.

I think if everyone believed-

I know that. I know that

... yeah, yeah, it wouldn't be a problem if everyone was like you, Chris

... I'm very respectful. I'll-

Yeah

... if I'm five minutes late, I'll call. Like, I, I don't like that, I don't like playing games with re-

Yeah

... I, I understand that it's important.

Of course he's not single, ladies.

[laughs]

Guy like that who calls five minutes, oh, man.

Ah.

Okay, let's, let's talk-

OpenTable... By the way, OpenTable's app also lets you message with restaurants, which is a, a cool feature to kind of-

Oh, hell yeah, I'm about to slide, I'm about to slide in Cafe Cl- Cafe Clooney's DMs and be like, "What's that omelet do though?" [laughs]

Just like on Spotify you can... That's how you creep.

Yeah.

I'll pull the bitch off OpenTable and you-

I saw a ho- I saw a hostess last night. I just, "What's her name? Where you got her at? Because I-

Just send her a photo that you took of her, this you.

[laughs] That's actually really funny. But I, I, I wanted to... 'Cause OpenTable is making a real play, I know, in the, in the space, and I kind of appreciate it's old school. I, I like that it's the first mover and they're, they're trying to come for Resy and SevenRooms.

It's like Patreon coming back, coming for Substack.

Nice to see a comeback story. You know, it's nice to see a comeback story.

I always lo-

Yeah

... I always appreciated that certain restaurants stayed on OpenTable. Even when the, the draw of Resy was strong they were able to resist, and I, I think that it's, um... I just don't know what the... It seems like a brand thing. Like, uh, the offering is basically the same.

Just follow the money, you know? One of them is Amex, one of them is Chase, right?

OpenTable, OpenTable's had a really good year. They've moved a lot of really hot restaurants over.

Yeah. They switched a lot of people back.

They also are a much larger platform, so they have, like, 60,000 restaurants on OpenTable-

Yeah, sure

... and-

Okay

... I don't know, you know, Chris is obviously just back from the Florida coast. Um-

[laughs]

... but when you look at the geographic coverage that OpenTable has, it's, it's enormous. And yeah, we've enjoyed partnering with Chase and OpenTable to infuse the Infatuation editorial. So we have this program where we have held tables at some of our favorite Infatuation restaurants around the country, and then Sapphire Reserve customers now get a $300 annual dining credit at those restaurants. So that's been a fun program that we've worked a lot on this year, and definitely I think it's good for diners and good for restaurateurs to have a lot of competition in the reservation space.

Yeah. I mean, I think that that's probably true. I like that, I just like that OpenTable, to me, I only go to OpenTable.com in a browser, and Resy is, like, an app in my mind. You know what I'm saying? Even though you-

[laughs]

... even though OpenTable you can definitely use the app and I have it on my phone-

[laughs]

... I think, I think I like it-

Interesting

... I like it because I can type it into my fucking box like a boomer and make a table, get a reservation on my-

So some websites are for your computer and some are for your phone.

It's like the way I won't buy a flight on my phone, it just feels wrong. Like, using Open- the OpenTable app is only if I'm in a pinch. I like going to the website.

I'm not putting my credit card information on my phone. [laughs] Are you fucking crazy? What if somebody steals it? [laughs]

Delta takes Apple Pay, guys.

No, I, I'll, I know all-

Yeah, yeah

... I know-

I love tapping on Delta

... I know people love doing this, it makes life easier, but I'm in front of a computer all fucking day. So does it make life easier? I don't, you know, I don't know. Like, I, I-

Yeah

... I don't know if it does.

I get that, and I, I also am in front of the computer all day. When I look at, like, Infatuation usage, and obviously this isn't a profound insight, but it is amazing that people are just on their phones all day. Like, the-

Yeah, I agree

... the split of mobile to desktop and the journey-

Mm-hmm

... that's been on over a decade, it really is that every digital experience anyone's building, you just have to be building for iPhone.

Mm. Mo- more people are watching films on a, on the, the smallest screen they own versus their largest screen, you know?

I just don't... It must just be, it just must be an age thing.

Yeah.

I just like to use a computer if, if I can.

Okay, let's talk about this, uh, this Infatuation list, though. I know the New York number one restaurant, Chris has been to, Smithereens, yeah?

Oh, really? It's number one? Go off. I like Smithereens a lot. Some of the best music I've ever heard in a restaurant.

And I'm sure you guys have been to Haw's and Bridges.

Um, yes. Yes. Bridges just got a Michelin star, huh?

Bridges, kinda man of the hour. And we got Bong, we got Chrissy's Pizza, um, Borgo, which we talked about earlier.

I need to go. I've only been there for an event. I need to go there. It was really nice.

I was wondering, I was like, how long till we name check Lauren Sherman's book party?

No, that's not why I went there. I went there for a GQ Canale dinner. So I ate there, it just wasn't, I didn't-

Okay

... I didn't, um-

You ate-

I'll tell you, though, the mileage Borgo got out of that book party really... Like, it's an amazing restaurant. It's done great on its own merits, but also that book party really helped Borgo come out of the gate. Um, Danny & Coop's, which is the Bradley Cooper-

Bro, you ain't putting Bradley Cooper's sandwich on there.

[laughs]

Are you out of your fucking mind? [laughs]

It's... Go have that sandwich, man. It is really good.

Bro, all right, if Bradley Cooper tells me exactly what plastic surgery he's had done, I'll go have a Philly cheese steak in the East Village at his restaurant.

I, I've, I've heard it is actually good.

I believe him.

I have heard.

No, I believe it.

It's really good.

Of course. I mean, he just pa- he just paid somebody who's really good to be his partner. I mean, I'm sure-

And it's New York, not... Like, it wouldn't be on the list if this, if it was in Philadelphia, because people would burn the Infatuation offices down.

[laughs]

[laughs]

But in New York, not known as a place where you can get a, a, a real Philly cheese steak, we're gonna have to eat Bradley's, right?

And speaking of lines, it's amazing that-

[laughs]

... people feel obligated to wear Eagles merch-

Oh, wow

... when they go to Dan- like-I know where people are finding these jerseys, these hats, but like people are dressing for an Eagles game to go get that cheese steak [laughs]

I bet Bradley Cooper, I bet Bradley Cooper... I, I bet that, I wonder what that line... I bet, I feel like he's gotten a lot of women to eat cheese steaks that had never really-

[laughs]

... considered that before on a Saturday afternoon.

Man, dressing up in Eagles gear to go wait in line to eat a sandwich in New York does feel Disney adult to me.

[laughs] Very.

In a derogatory way.

But yeah, Best New Restaurants. Best New Restaurants is our big kinda campaign at the end of the year where we celebrate our favorite restaurants. We, our team goes out to over 5,000 restaurants a year, both new and places we're returning to, dine anonymously, pay for it ourselves. And we're always really happy at the end of the year to celebrate some of our favorites.

What other ci-

And we send trophies out.

What other cities do we cover here?

Dude, we're everywhere, man. All the major cities do a Best New Restaurant list.

Okay, I gotcha, I gotcha.

We're not gonna talk about the other secondary and tertiary markets, just LA and New York.

No, I don't care. I don't care about that.

Jason, Jason's working on our Ojai Best New Restaurant list.

[laughs]

So we'll have that next year.

I'll do... Yeah, I'll, I will, I would love to do an Infatuation Glendale, California-

Whoa

... best of list.

What is Jason, what is the, what is number one in LA? I know you disagree with it, so let's just go ahead and-

S- uh, well, the number... Is it Somni?

Yeah.

Somni?

I have not been to Somni. It's a, it's like a Spanish fine dining spot in WeHo, you know, fussy, expensive. I heard it's good, but it's not really the type of shit that I wanna go to.

Baby Bistro's right in there at number two for kind of the Jason crowd.

Sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Baby Bistro in at number two.

We're checking all the boxes.

Which is a, which is a good, it's a, it's a, it's a very good meal and but l- uh, a little more for a challenging, advanced palate, I think.

Where are you on River? Did you go there this year?

I'm not... I, I have eaten at River. Not a fan.

Okay.

Is that the pla- is that the former Mountain?

[laughs] Yes.

These motherfuckers love nature.

It's not, it's not Mountain, it's R-

[laughs] Sure. They, they left the vowels out.

[laughs]

These motherfuckers hate a vowel. Um, I know that ev- every single person loves River. For me, if I, if it was a neighborhood spot and I could walk there, I would consider it, you know, go get a highball, go get a frosty Japanese beer. The, the beer was probably my favorite thing there. But the v- the small veggie plates, he excels at, but like the Japanese cookery by a bunch of tatted up white guys with ponytails and longboard skateboards, I'd rather just go eat at the thousand other Japanese restaurants in LA made by real Japanese chefs.

I think you're also, you're very geographically driven.

Mm.

I mean, I'm getting a strong... You wanna stay close.

I'm, no, no, no, I'm, I'm, I would, I love to travel for food, and I will, but River, it just doesn't, doesn't do it for me. I mean, when I, when I'm... Like, this is a Japanese izakaya spot. I'm gonna get the izakaya and I'm cr- you know. Whenever I go to a restaurant and I think of 10 places that do this dish better for half the price, I'm instantly out.

Now, where are your, can I get your Mustards bagel versus Courage bagel?

I haven't been to Mustards because I would-

Okay

... never go to Culver City.

Hold on. That, you're saying DJ Mustard opened a bagel place?

[laughs]

I didn't know. No one mentioned-

Pe- people like Mustards bagels, um-

By the way, he just said, "I will never go to Culver City."

[laughs] Nobody's going to Culver City.

Unle- unless there's a check on the other end, why would you ever go to Culver City?

I don't make enough money, I don't make enough money to be-

Where are you taking your Apple and HBO meetings, Jason?

Zoom. [laughs]

[laughs] And so, but Mustards, so Mustards is, is coming for the Courage crown? Is that what the streets are saying?

Mustards is our, one of our best new restaurants in LA this year, and it-

Mm-hmm

... look, the bagel wars all over the country are unbelie- I mean, we talked a little about pizza and how pizza has now become a nationwide thing, and bagels, obviously Courage played a big role in that, but bagels are everywhere also. And definitely the, the Mustards versus Courage conversation has been robust.

You know what happened to me?

[laughs]

You know how... Let me tell, let me tell you guys a little bagel story real quick before we end here. I, Alex and I were in, we went to Bergdorf and we wanted to get a fucking bagel.

[laughs]

And I looked, I looked on my phone and Pop's, Pop's Bagels was around the corner. I'm like, "All right, I'll, I've never been to Pop's Bagels. I've heard of it." I go there, there's a line. I'm like, "All right, fuck it. We're here. I'll wait for a few minutes." And then I notice they just give you, there's no seating inside, and they give you a bag of bagels and a tub of cream cheese, and you're meant to go make do with that.

[laughs]

And that is when, that's when I went to a regular New York bagelry that we found and had a normal bagel, 'cause this shit's gotta stop. It's gone too far. Like, just give me a fucking bagel. I don't need to have, I don't need-

Hey, tell, tell-

I don't need to be greedy

... Gary's to, "I just want a slice." They're, they say, "No, I don't have time for that right now."

Do you ever hit Bagel, you ever hit Bagel Bob's?

No.

I'm saying that bagels and pizza are always good. It's a, it's a level.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

It's a, it's a, it's a level.

Bagel Bob's on University. It's like-

Oh, oh, I know that place. I do know that place. I do know that place.

To me, that's the perfect bagel place of you walk in there, they are moving at a speed that nobody's ever moved at in terms of like from your order to you getting that bag is like 12 seconds, and it was toasted and spread in that time.

Mm-hmm.

They got the little, like, paper carton of Tropicana-

Oh, that is, that's nice

... that I didn't even know anyone else is selling.

Oh, wow.

I would rather go to, I would rather go... Apollo's probably my favorite, but there's a place called Heaven's Hot Bagel in the, on Fourth and like B.

Fun name.

Or Houston and B that's like a shithole that, that really I've spent a lot of time there, so I gotta say I, I respect it.

But, but like the, the tiny, you know, affordable luxuries, I think b- the, the bagel space has really-

Yeah

... you know, a thing that we should all, we were all spending $2 on for our entire lives. Now, you know, we can get a, a, a $30 bagel depending on how pretty it is and how expensive the toppings are, you know?

Mark Bittman did it to us.

[sighs] Bit by the, bit by the Bittman.

[laughs]

So what's, what's up with Mustards? What, uh, sell me on it. Why, I mean, I, I know C- Courage Bagel very well. It's a specific type of bagel. It's a little more thin and crunchy and crispy. Put the butter on it, it's really good, really nice tomatoes. It's, many people say this is not necessarily a bagel, but it's really fucking good.

So open-faced for sure. Um-

Mm.

For me as a Din Tai Fung head-

Mm

... the nori everything bagel, which has like cucumbers and chili crisp, and is inspired by the Din Tai Fung cucumber salad-Is just like a, a cool thing to see

Hell, hell no

So Din Tai Fung-

Hell no

... cucumber salad.

Crispy sourdough. Crispy sourdough.

On top of the bagel?

Jason, I think we have to try this. I think we have to try this. This is, this is too freaky to not get our little mouths on.

We'll deliver them from Culver City out to, out to Chez Jason.

Yeah, get, bring 'em, bring 'em-

That'd be nice

... bring 'em to Jay-

We'll bring him some sunset tower for Chris and Chez Jason.

Yeah.

What, what does the cuc- what does the cucumber bagel run for over at Mustards? 'Cause people come for Courage a lot for being really overpriced for a bagel. What is Mustards go for?

I don't know. I gotta check that for you.

But once again, Jason, what does overpriced mean? You know what I mean? It's like ag- I, I agree. I think if you, if someone is willing to pay the price, then it's not overpriced, and that, that goes across the board.

I, I, it's, as a value proposition, when I hear, you know, this is an heirloom tomato from the Santa Monica Farmer's Market, and this is l- lox that was cured from this and sustainably pole caught blah, blah, you know-

Sure, sure, sure, sure

... then you're like, "Okay, I see the value to what I'm paying for." When I see this is 12 cents worth of flour-

The moment someone says Harry's Berries-

Yeah, yeah, yeah

... I'm just like, I know I'm in for 30 bucks.

Right. But when I hear cucumber, you know, I know how much a cucumber costs, and it's not expensive.

Hey, that's not true. That's not true. I'm sure we could find-

Organic English? Organic English?

We could, we could find an expensive cucumber if we looked, and I'm sure they would-

They're Persian if they're, if they're, I'm sure it's a Persian cucumber, and I know that it costs 30 cents, and I know that they're using 10 cents worth of chili oil, and they're not necessarily creating alchemy. But m- maybe they are. I'll give it a try.

Just give it a try. All right, Paul, thank you for joining us. Uh, the list, the, the Infatuation Best Restaurants is up now everywhere you look at lists.

And thank you guys for doing it. It was a fun tour this year and-

Our pleasure, dude. It was super, it was super fun. I loved it.

We can't wait to do it next year. Miami.

We really enjoyed having, you know, Alison Roman in LA, uh, Alison Roman in New York, Cape Burland in LA, and Joe Freshgoods in Chicago was very fun.

Wait, I for-

Our three queens

... I forgot about Chicago. I had that life altering nut mix. Jason, do you remember that?

[laughs] Yeah, it was spicy, salty, sweet.

It, it was... Like, I happened to see it. It was like the one place that didn't have a crazy line, and it had nice packaging, and Jason got me one, and I was like, "This is fucking banging. This is it."

I think it was, like, one of the oyster seafood kind of spots.

Yeah, it was, like, an oyster. Yeah, it was delicious. It was really delicious. Um, all right, Paul, look, thanks for joining us, and, uh, we'll see you soon, bud. [upbeat music]

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