870. - Tom Freston

[upbeat music] How Long Gone, uh, it is, uh, an overcast rare Thursday, uh, recording. Um, we've had to adjust our schedule because we have the GQ Man of the Year Awards tomorrow night. I'm in Los Angeles, and so is Jason.

Mm-hmm.

I gotta say, big bro, I needed, I needed sun and I'm not getting it, and I'm not gonna get it from what I understand.

We got a little rain tomorrow, got a little... Like I said, you just missed it, bro. 87 degrees yesterday or whatever it was. So you, you're at the Chateau, and our listeners should know your, your suitcase with your podcasting equipment is being held hostage because they're setting up a red carpet in the little area for some dumb event tomorrow. So-

[laughs]

... that- that's why you hear Chris's voice-

I, I don't think it'll sound, I don't think it'll sound that bad, to be honest

I, I don't, I don't... I didn't say it's gonna sound bad. I'm gonna say it sounds different.

Different. I, well, the, the... Yeah, the um... I ran into Will in the lobby and he was like, "Yeah, we're getting, um... They're saying it's an atmospheric river vibe tomorrow, so we've decided [laughs] to make, we've decided to make a few changes to the layout to, to make sure everything's covered. Um, but he didn't, he didn't-

The atmospheric river, I forgot about that phrase

It's such a great descriptive term. It really says so much. Uh, but he, he seemed... he didn't seem stressed, so I'm not stressed, you know?

Yeah, we'll throw a little money at that problem. You know, it doesn't have to be all indoors. I mean, all outdoors, right?

It do- no, it doesn't. It really doesn't.

Yeah, I'm excited. After this I'm gonna hop in the sauna, head over there. We got some table reads, feeling very writers' room-y. I can't wait to get the, uh, the Chex Mix going and the whatever we or- the Sweet Green orders, protein play.

Don't worry, I, I already r- I already ran into 15 producers, uh, that said hello, um, that I recognize from our Zoom calls, so they're ready.

I hope talent walking.

They've got the gummy, they got the gummy worms out in cups already-

[laughs]

... somewhere, somewhere in this fucking behemoth.

Are you a Red Vine or a Twizzler household?

[laughs] Oh, that's why those motherfuckers get fat. The writing room don't pay enough to put on 20 from eating all the snacks.

Right.

You gotta... Like, that's, that's... They should give you the, the GL- the option is GLP-1 or snacks. You can't do both.

GLP-1 or a PB&J, whichever one. [laughs]

[laughs] That, that's it. In the writer, in the writer... I see the, like... All y'all do is eat. That's all you do.

Yeah.

Writers, I feel for you. I know it's tempting. I, I have the same... Look, I'm... You put cheese in front of me, it's gonna be tough.

Don't leave them around you.

Don't leave your cheeses around me. True eater for real.

Chris, as famously known as a real eater, of course.

[laughs] Oops.

Um, yeah, sorry about the weather. I'll be in New York this weekend DJing a wedding. Pray that, let's pray that we get wheels up. I feel good about it, though. I'm not worried about it.

I, I honestly, dude, I mean, I, honestly it was business as usual today at JFK.

It's a crap shoot.

And it was busy. Like, it was busy.

Mm-hmm.

Like, it was... You know, it wasn't... It didn't feel different in that way. But yeah, I... The, the-

Not a lot of crying, not a lot of people sleeping on cots and, and waiting in bread lines or anything like that this time.

No, but there's, there's a lot of, um... Now that winter's hitting, I think people are trying to put those masks back on. [laughs] And-

Oh, you mean because it's like a-

Cold season

... cold season. What a little bitch.

D- you know what, Jason? It's shocking to me that people don't... I trust my immune system. I feed my immune system. I'm nice to it. I coddle it. I keep it warm. I cool it down.

Pause.

If you take care of the system, it should work fine, you know? Like, obviously there's, there's o- other factors involved, but I just noticed... Like, I went to the, uh, Wednesday show last night at Brooklyn Steel, and of course there were some masks in that audience. You already-

Yeah, yeah

... you already know there's some ma- But that audience, it seemed-

They got masks that ain't even out yet up in that bitch

They got [laughs] the new shit. They got... But there was a... I saw a g- I saw a lot of masks at that show, but also the people wearing the mask, and this is disappointing, closer to our age than college age.

Mm-hmm. When, when I went to that all-ages Electroclash-

Yeah

... and Slowdive Festival, I saw a lot of people wearing ma- It was, it was really... But it was, like, one or the other. There was no gray area.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, like with adulthood, it's really all over the place and some people are, are hypochondriac-y than others, and some people have actual illnesses, and blah, blah, blah. But when I was there, it was either, like, I have an emotional support backpack that's also a panda bear, and I have my mask, and I have my ear muffs, and I have my-

[laughs] Yes

... you know when, like, the horse, they have to wear the little thing on the horse so they don't get spooked from the side?

[laughs] Spooks.

They got that shit on. It's either those people, where if you, like, walk past them they go... Like, just by, like, being in... Or it's either that or just people, like, puking on the floor or just like, "What up, dude?"

Yeah, they're like-

"My name's Brad. You guys wanna, like, fuck later?"

I'm wearing a d- [laughs] I'm wearing a tank top and have a septum piercing and smoked a whole pack of cigarettes. I don't know what day it is.

Uh-huh.

Yeah, that is the-

I brought my dad here. He's chill.

That is sort of the... That is kind of what a lot of shows are like now, I think. That, that divide of like-

But I, but I like that everyone with... young people at least, everyone gets along and no one is-

Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure

... no one i- I mean, it, it's different if, depending on the show. At a Wednesday show it's a lot of nice people, probably less right-wing conservative.

I would say zero of the... I lit- maybe zero.

Been very respectful of everyone's space. It wasn't, you know, we're not getting our-

Actually, you know, I was standing, I was standing on a little balcony and they, they weren't super respectful of my space, if I'm keeping it 100 with you. I think they were like, "This big cis bitch is in my way. I can't see over..." I just, I was kinda trying to keep my little spot as the show started, and I felt like I was getting a little-

They were encroaching.

I feel like some baristas were edging me out.

When, when we're, when we were at the Addison Rae show in the balcony, if somebody tries to encroach, guess what? No, no dice.You gotta crawl down on your ha- Chase Sui Wonders gotta crawl down on the floor, hands and knees

Luke, [laughs] Luke gotta s- sniff my nuts if he wants to see SN Ray, and he might like it.

Mm-hmm.

That's the fucked up part.

Okay. Over at Wednesday, you're saying they felt a little more entitled.

They felt entitled, and I, I, I... And y- I mean, you suffer from this way more than I ever would, but I, I, I am, uh, aware of my size and that I am probably obscuring someone's view, and I wanna be respectful of that.

Earth master over here.

Yeah, exactly. [laughs]

[laughs]

I wanna be respectful of that because, you know-

Yeah

... they paid the money to see the band they love, you know, as much as I did, so.

I wanna donate to Greenpeace too. I wanna do a lot of shit, Chris. I know.

I wouldn't do that. No.

[laughs]

Don't, don't put that on, don't put that on my jacket, big dog.

But all, all I'm saying, I wanna see what happens at a show that has a little more rowdy energy. You know what I mean? Or I wanna see some- I wanna see you rip someone's N95 off in the pit.

Oh, don't worry.

You know what I mean?

When American Nightmare plays at Rough Trade record store, I'm about to go fucking crazy.

Okay.

Don't even worry about it.

Okay.

There's no masks. I don't think there's any masks there. But I went-

[laughs]

So before the show, Jacob and I went to Bernie's. I'm sure you've heard of Bernie's. It's a restaurant in Greenpoint.

Mm-hmm.

And I'd been there once or twice for an event, and I, I have to say, and I told the owner this, but second-best veggie burger in the world maybe, after, after Houston's.

Really?

It was ve- it was... And I, I... Yeah, it was very, very good. I was really impressed.

So does it go Houston, Bernie, then Superiority?

Y- I, I love Superiority's sandwiches. The burger isn't my favorite thing.

Mm, mm-hmm.

Do you know what I'm saying?

Mm-hmm.

Like, the sandwiches are so good, and there's a lot of them that are really good, but the, the burger is fine. This burger was multi-patty.

[laughs]

And I f- exactly. And it felt... It just felt like-

Are, are you saying more than two?

I think it was two, but with shredded-

Okay

... lettuce, American cheese, sesame seed bun.

Okay. Standard, standard.

And very-

No, no funny shit

... no funny shit.

No fig jam, no blue cheese.

No. But I told, I told Oliver, I was like, "Bro, this thing is really fucking good." The fries, every... It was just a, it was a, a great-

What farm was the shredduce from?

You know what? I am gonna inquire about that because I was like, "Bro, is this shit all vegetables?"

[laughs]

He's like... He looked at me like, "Yeah, you fucking idiot. Of course." And like, look, I don't know, man. There was... Do you remember how popular fake meat was for, like, a three-year period? I feel like it was-

Of course

... but it's over. It's, like, kinda over.

Yeah, I mean, I still see Impossible every once in a while, but it feels very... It's giving phased out.

I'm referring more so to Beyond.

Mm-hmm.

I feel like that was a s- a fucking rocket ship, and then it just fucking... People were like, "Wait, this is actually terrible for you? I don't... Like, I'm not gonna eat this."

A lot of, a lot of undigestible gluten-

Yeah

... i- in play.

Look, I was just... I made the trek to Brooklyn last night, and it was a success all around, and that makes me feel great.

Okay. You've been doing good over there in, in Brooklyn lately, bopping over to Tame, w- over at Strange Delight.

Yeah.

Now Bernie's with Wednesday.

I saw, I saw Strange, I saw Strange Delight guy at Allison Roman's book party, and I, but I didn't get to say what's up to him, and I, I wanna... I was like, "Oh, that's my..." He was wearing the hat, so it was a giveaway, but-

Sure

... good restaurant.

Good guy.

Good restaurant.

Okay. Well, the next time I'm in New York, we can try to do one more cool re... We'll, we'll do a noodle pudding and-

I'm, I'm ready to go. If I have to hear about it one more time before I eat there, I might kill myself, but I'm going to eat there.

I don't care if Jack Antonov lives upstairs-

[laughs]

... and it only because Lena-

No, I'm gonna-

... went, used to go there

... I'm gonna go up on Ja- I'm gonna knock on Jack's door and be like, "All right, let's see what you really got, bitch. I want a hit. Like, let's get in here. I wanna get in the l- I wanna get in the lab."

Oh, not a, not a fight. You want him to write a hit. Okay.

My, my, my... I've had a long-

I thought you meant like, "I'll let you have first punch."

No. I mean, I would let him have first punch.

[laughs]

It ain't... I can take a l-

Man, the, the photo of, of Margaret sitting on his lap where he's wearing the, the NBA basketball shorts-

That's sick

... and the wife beater.

A lot of people are like, "You guys don't get it. This is the perfect... This is how all Jewish couples..." They're like, "This makes so much sense, actually. You don't understand." It was really funny.

He's been pulling like this since day one.

Yeah. I wanna, I wanna go knock on it. I think that's an idea for us too, is that we show up at Emil's house or Mark Ronson's house or Jack Antonov's house, and like, "All right. All right, Wyatt, Andrew Wyatt, we got 12 hours. Let's, let's see what we got. Let's see what we can do here."

Okay. So it's a little Scared Straight-

Exactly

... Sabotage. It's a little Room Raiders.

Yeah, it's a little Room Raiders.

I'm, I'm gonna do the white glove test-

Yes

... on the NS 10s.

[laughs]

Please believe.

Nah, you know I'm not white gloving anything at Emil's.

[laughs]

No, no, no, no, no.

[laughs]

No, but yeah, I think this is, this is an idea I've had for a while where I'm like how good these... I think of these guys as geniuses that are such a big part of the process and really are the ones-

Mm-hmm

... doing it. But, like, if you and I show up at Tobias Jesso Jr.'s fucking farm, and you're out picking carrots, and I'm like, "All right, bi- what do you got, bro?" Oh, Olivia Dean can do it, but I can't?

You, I, I pull the MPC out of the suitcase and say, start cooking. I feel like Fred Again would be able to do this more-

Yeah

... than almost anyone else.

No, it's true.

Because all these other people, it's kinda like showing up at Jack Kerouac house and, and be like, "All right, give me a nice little story about the American struggle off top." [laughs]

[laughs] I need, I need, I need a 2,000-word story about the American struggle on site, like right now.

Mozart, I need a Verizon jingle.

[laughs]

My desk, sundown.

Oh, it's so funny.

There's an extra 1,500 in it for you if you can give me the stems.

Oh, God. That's so fucking funny. It's so good.

[laughs]

Uh, all right, yeah, so anyway, we're, we're here. Watch us on the live stream tomorrow. What time is the live stream?

Yeah, 7:00 PM PST if this comes out before then.

Thursday night, 7:00 PM PST on the live stream. Hopefully we'll cut it up for YouTube. We're gonna be talking to all of our favorite men and, uh, women additionally of the year.

Gotta give it up to the men.

Thank you to our GQ family, uh, Will Welch for, for inviting us to do this. We're happy to be here. Uh, I think that's it. Jason, I'll see you in a couple hours for, uh, more, uh, reading.

Do you still wanna get dinner after our table read, just to keep it all the way Hollywood with it?

We should. And there's also some, uh, there's some partying happening at one of your favorite places that has also been, uh, added to the slate, just if you're interested.

The slate for tonight?

Yeah, yeah. A little pre, you know, some, a little something, something light.

I have a facial at 8:45. How's this gonna work?

Yeah, that's the whole point. That's... It fixes it, the problems.

I'm so glad we had this convo. Okay, what's the party? I'll bleep it.Got it

... you know.

Okay

And I was like, "I think Jake's gonna b- I think Jake's gonna be here," so we'll see. I don't, I don't... I'm gonna feel insane, I'm sure.

Is this a USB situation for me?

I mean, does Asad use vinyl or does he use USB?

[laughs] I think he can handle both. That's a good point.

Go take, go bump him and his silk shirt out of the way and see what you can put a little Madonna on for the heads.

I'll, I'll blaze Asad a little ass-

[laughs]

... tonight.

Uh, no, thank you guys for listening, howlonggone.com, and, uh, we'll see you on the World Wide Web. Thank you.

Wagwan.

This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian, Stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's, uh, it's trying to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions.

A lot of questions, but how often? 'Cause we do this podcast three times a week, and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do?

Three times a week, and I, I, I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe gonna be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess.

The Guardian is not some billionaire-owned platform. They're not afraid to say what they wanna say, brother.

Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in, in what, uh, journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at, at, uh, Stateside.

Mm-hmm.

But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch on YouTube. It's three times a week, and, and who couldn't use more news? You know, especially, especially when it's, when it's not, you know, from here, let's say.

[laughs]

Give, give it a, give it a listen. Give it a listen. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by our best friends at BetterHelp. Jason, we're, we're deep into May, which is, uh, Mental Health Awareness Month, and this is just a reminder that whatever you're going through, you don't have to go through it alone. Life is a damn journey. Some days feel good, and others feel overwhelming. Whatever's keeping you up at night, it's easy to feel like you have to figure it all out on your own. But the truth is, no one has all the answers. Well, and no journey should be alone. Having someone with you to listen, to understand, and to support you can really make all the difference.

I agree, Chris, and sometimes, you know, it, it's nice to be talking to somebody even if they're not even listening, even if you don't even get to s- be in the same room with them because what you're doing is you're admitting these things to yourself and that's the most, that's the most rewarding thing you can do sometimes. So, you can have a great little therapy sesh with your perfect therapist at BetterHelp. Choosing between over 30,000 people so you can get the right one just for you. Over six million people globally are using it and, you know, have some breakthroughs, go on that walk after your BetterHelp sesh, you know, whatever it might be. Get a nice little lunch all for yourself, maybe a non-alcoholic kombucha, and just think and be like, "Damn, I really am him." You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have somebody with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/howlong. That is betterH-E-L-P.com/howlong.

All right, Tom. Look, thank you for joining us on How Long Gone. You, are you in your study? Is this an office? It looks like we're-

This is, uh, where I work. This is my office, but it's in my home. I'm, I'm in Manhattan. I'm in New York, so I'm just working a worker bee here.

[laughs] Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. So you don't, you don't need to, at this point in your life, you don't feel the need to separate sort of, uh, home and work with an office that you have to commute to? You're happy to stay at home?

It's a mixed blessing, for those of you with home offices. It, when you used to leave, uh, that was like a punctuation mark, leaving the office and, you know-

Yeah

... when you have it in your house, it's sorta like, you know, a monkey on your back. It, you know, you can always twin b- back in there. But yeah, it's convenient.

Yeah.

It's an easy commute.

If nothing else. Are you uptown? Are you an uptown guy?

I'm an uptown guy now. I lived in Tribeca for, like, 20 years, but I moved uptown, and, uh, here I am.

Okay. You, so you s- you describe yourself as a worker bee. At this point in your, in your life and career, what are we diligently working away at?

You know, there's an old maxim that, uh, work will expand to fit, to fit the amount of time you had if work was y- always your default position.

Mm.

So, I do a bunch of things. Uh, the, the main thing I'm doing these days is, [laughs] uh, is promoting this book.

[laughs]

But other than that, I, I've been the board chair of this thing called the ONE Campaign, which is this anti-poverty advocacy group, focuses on Africa, does RED.

Shout out to Bono.

Yeah. S- so I've been doing that. I'm the board chair for 18 years, and, uh, you know, in the wake of a lot of the Trump cutback, I'm really bus- that takes up a lot of my time.

Okay.

Uh, I've been working with these TV networks, uh, in Afghanistan. I went back there ev- and they're still trying to see how we can survive and-

Yeah, I wanna get into your relationship with Afghanistan 'cause I think you're the only person I know that has been there voluntarily.

Let's get the charity stuff out of the way at the head, at the, at the beginning, Tom.

Well, that is charity stuff-

[laughs]

... 'cause I'm working there for free, you know? I-

Yeah, yeah. I know. I know

... I'm h- I b- I was helping them set up the first commercial thing after the fall of the Taliban, you know, and the idea was this was gonna help build tolerance. They never really had television. Help socialize and civilize people, connect them to each other, all of that.

They never really, they never really had television?

No, no, no.

So now, uh, now you kinda pivoted that to educational stuff for the, for the Afghanistan people?

That's right.

No politics, just math and stuff, I'm assuming.

[laughs]

Yes, that's right.

Yeah.

You know, w- and we, we had, like, 250 advertisers when things were booming. Now there's one.

Okay, so we've cut the ad rev-

I- it's like Red Bull, Red Bull. [laughs]

[laughs]

'Cause it's like these energy drinks 'cause there's no alcohol.

Okay.

People just wanna get jacked up doing s- [laughs]

It's a, it's a little cardamom Red Bull or whatever-

Yeah. [laughs]

... Zoran's drinking. That's what they're selling ads for.

They have their ver- or they have their versions of the Red Bull. Uh, but it's that. We get money from foundations like Malala and Gates to do educational programming for Afghan women who've been marginalized, you know?

When's the first time you went there, though, like the '60s?

I went there in '72.I went there in '72 and, uh, fell in love with the place.

But you were just on, like, a vibes mission at first?

I was on a, I was on a vibe mission. I was-

What was her name, Tom? What was her name?

[laughs]

Susan. Susan.

Got it. [laughs]

A famous Afghani name, Susan. [laughs]

[laughs]

Yeah. No, I was advised to go there. I was, I was, uh, I had been in advertising in, in this, in New York, was work- they had tried to get me to work on Charmin toilet paper, and I, I quit. That was the last straw for me, and I went at this woman said, "Come and meet me in, uh, Paris. We're gonna cross the Sahara Desert." I did that, stayed with her a couple months, and then I kinda went everywhere. And then I met this Susan in Greece, who told me, "India, that's like the Holy Grail, the greatest show on Earth." So I went over land and stopped in Afghanistan after being in Iran and Lebanon and so forth, and-

Mm-hmm

... I, I just got a fascination with the place. It really struck me. It was beautiful. People think of Afghanistan now as a, this barbaric place where everybody's fighting all the time. But back then, I, I mean, they, they had a tourist poster. They didn't have many tourists, but you say, "Visit Afghanistan and see the world's friendliest people."

And, and, and you can attest to that. You agree that they are the friendliest people?

I did. It was, they were very hospitable.

Mm-hmm.

It was a beautiful land. It was exotic. It was like I was stepping out of time. It was intoxicating.

Okay.

What did, what was your look at the time?

I, it was a little hair. I, I, I-

[laughs]

... had a different haircut, you know?

I imagine the hair was a little longer, but was there any... What, what was the look as far as the, the tattered rags?

Yeah, I'm-

Oh

... I'm, I'm imagining a Jay Peterman from television Seinfeld.

[laughs]

You know? Trekking from, from Manhattan to Timbuktu.

I spent a year on the road with two changes of clothes, so by the time I got there they were a little ragged. But, you know, I would pick up clothes along the way.

Sure.

Okay, so we were traveling, we were traveling light.

I was traveling [laughs] light, uh, with a duffle bag, yes.

Okay. Hitchhiking down the Silk Road.

I did.

[laughs]

I, I hitchhiked there.

And what was the, what was the Hindu Kush looking like over there in Afghanistan at the time?

Well, they were always, like, 20,000-plus-foot mountains covered with snow. They were beautiful. There was no pollution 'cause there was hardly any cars. Now it's a whole other story, so.

I'm talking more about the Kush-

Oh, the Kush

... that might have a little crys- crystal on snow cap, different kinda cap on the mountains.

Afghanistan had the best hashish in the world.

Yeah. Oh, oh.

And they, they were, they were proud of that. And it was called... But no one called it Hindu Kush, it was a Kush variety. That kinda came about when those California botanists got into it.

Mm-hmm.

You know, started naming strains.

Yeah, these nerds.

Wiz Khalifa took that and ran with it, didn't he, Tom?

[laughs]

[laughs] They, they did. Yeah, Hindu Kush had a whole new name.

Yeah.

But, you know, it, it was very relaxing.

[laughs]

And, you know, they would sell it... When I checked in at immigration going across the border they said, "You know, you gotta stay here at our hotel because, uh, it's too dangerous to leave." And they'd, they, and then the guy at the ho- government hotel, I changed some money, and then he said, "You want hashish?" And he holds up all these little disks.

Mm-hmm.

He says, "You know, we have the world's finest hashish." And I said, "Isn't this duty-free?" He's going, "Duty-free."

[laughs]

I go, "You know..."

"Yeah, is this a fucking trick? We're at a government building, you're selling me hash?"

It, it was everywhere, yeah.

Okay.

That was the good part.

So that sound, that sounds like when I go to San Francisco, they say, "Here, welcome to the hotel. Don't go outside, though, it's not safe."

Yes.

Keep you in- "We'll keep you indoors but occupied."

Okay. So you, so you, you... Final verdict, the ha- the hash is quite relaxing, but you don't really partake anymore, I'm assuming, or, or who knows?

No, I do, I do.

Okay. My man.

You know, whenever I find the time.

You're a, you're a real lifer. I appreciate that.

Yeah. [laughs]

That's commitment.

Yeah. And inspiration to me, 'cause you'll, you look great and professional and successful. And if you're still smoking some pot, what an inspiration.

Well, a little, a little, a little here and there is, uh, good for, you know, s- s- is good for you.

Mm-hmm. For your mind, brother.

I, I...

[laughs]

Yeah, it feels like it informed your approach to life a little bit, but you didn't let it, uh, let's say, take over like some people might.

No. I've seen that, I've seen that, I've seen that. I was a, I was a light user.

Sure. Good, good, good. Half a joint max. Well, as, as somebody who came from the advertising world, knew how to sell one or two things, when you touch down and you see all this going on over there, were, were the, the alarms ticking in your head of, of opportunities of how you could sell this stuff back to Americans?

Yeah. Well, first of all, I, I met this woman in Greece, and she, she would, uh, show up at these beach cafes, and she had trunks of clothes. And she lived in Kathmandu, in Nepal, and she said, "Well, I've been there for four years." She was an American. And she would make her own and design clothes, and then ferry them to Greece and Italy and sell 'em. And, and I, I saw that and I said, "Wow, that's interesting. I could do that. What about if I could do that on a grander level? Make, you know, sell to stores?" And it would be... What I was really looking to do was find a way to support myself over there so I could live there and travel, 'cause I was just totally engaged with what... It was crazy over there in those days. It was really-

Mm-hmm

... you know, you're really living life on the edge.

Would, would you, would you call it lawless? Is that fair to say?

Well, yeah, no, I wouldn't say it was lawless, no. I mean, Afghani-

[laughs]

... Afghanistan, a m- my main business was in India.

Okay.

Which was then, you know, sort of the greatest show on Earth, crowded and crazy and s- sort of in a socialist incarnation. But it was, it was the hardest work I ever did in my life. But I, I bought a, I got a house in Delhi and I wanted to live there, so I started this business, and it became quite lucrative, you know?

You rented it. So how, was it easy as an American to come in there and just rent a house if you had cash, or buy a house if you had cash?

No. [laughs]

[laughs]

[laughs]

They were very, very paranoid of foreigners. And today if you're American you can go work there, but in those days, uh, the Indians were, you know, newly independent, paranoid about foreigners-

Mm-hmm

... getting out of colonialism and all that.

Yeah.

But I, my agent, I, I found a partner in India, so he would rent the house for me. We would live there. And, uh, you know, you could live a, quite a nice life. It wasn't that expensive. It was really, you could live like a pasha.

Yeah.

But, uh, built the business, and it grew and grew, and it was a lot of fun, and I got to travel everywhere.

And you, one of your first account or, like, big scores was, was getting the Bloomingdale's account, and we had Gene Pressman from the Barneys family on, um, a month or two ago.

I listen, I listened to that, I listened to that podcast.

Oh, nice.

Yeah.

Nice, nice. So where's, where's-

He was in Palm Beach

... yeah, he's down in Palm Beach. He, he gave up.You're still, you're still fighting the good fight

Yeah, he's on the bench down there

He's on the bench [laughs]

He n- he needs a little bench time, but I g- I guess my question was, was there ever a desire to be into Barneys, or did you want Bloomingdale's more than Barneys? Was there a bidding war, or, or do you, do you know Gene?

In, in, in those days, Barney... Well, yeah, we, we were in, uh, like most of the Macy's, Bonwit Teller, which is now the Trump building. Uh, B- Macy's, uh, Barneys then was largely on 7th Avenue. He probably explained that to you, in its early incarnation selling discount suits.

Yeah.

So it wasn't really the player that Gene made it to be-

Yeah, yeah, yeah

... at that point.

Okay.

Do you have a relationship to Palm Beach? I feel like you really said it with some, uh, pizzazz in your voice.

No.

[laughs]

I don't have any.

[laughs]

It's, I'd ra- I'd much prefer California than, than to be a Florida man.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, I would have to agree with you.

Smart.

So you're saying if you need a little R&R, you would rather go to California, or are you like a Hamptons guy?

I'd go to California. I mean, I've been out in the Hamptons, but, uh, you know, I like a good beach. They have lovely beaches. Little, little traffic jam out there, you know?

Sure. Well, yeah, Chris, Chris just flew in from JFK. He's at the Chateau Marmont right now. Is that where you stay, or do you stay somewhere else in LA?

Uh, well, I had a house there for a lot of years, and I sold it. Before that, I used to stay at the, uh, Sunset Marquis, and then when I was on expense account, I used to go to the Hotel Bel-Air in the olden days.

Mm-hmm. [laughs]

And now I'm sort of in, in between hotels. When I go out there, I don't know where to stay. I generally stay with a couple of friends.

Yeah.

Uh, you know?

I feel like your friends have houses bigger than my friends, so there's, you know, you kinda have your own entrance maybe. You know, there's, it's a little-

[laughs]

... it's a little easier to bunk up with the homies.

If you feel like going all the way over to Malibu, yeah.

[laughs]

I, uh, I, I, I have some friends who have some money, but I also-

[laughs]

... have some living closer-

Share some

... to the ground like you guys.

Uh-huh. [laughs]

Thank you for noticing within 15 minutes that we're living closer to the ground. [laughs]

You got a moonvez on the top.

[laughs]

You got a Graydon Carter down below.

Well, you're at the Chateau out there. You know, that's pretty cool. I've stayed there a bunch of times. I love the Chateau.

It is cool. It is, it is, uh... It's also an expense account hotel in its own way, but I... The Bel Air is a very special. That feels like its own planet. I've never stayed there, actually. I've only been for, like, lunch, but it feels very removed.

It, it used to be nicer. They closed it for t- three years to renovate it and modernize it, so I would find a trend. Whenever a hotel that was nice, and kind of unique, and had wooden floors, and then they redo it and everything has a marble floor, it's generally-

Mm-hmm

... loses the vibe.

Yeah. The charm is gone, for sure.

Yeah.

They can charge more somehow. They f- always find a way to charge more.

Yes. That's not a problem.

[laughs] Okay. Well, you, you said you were coming back here on, on the expense accounts way back in the olden days, and, uh, you're obviously exaggerating a little bit, but what... In, in your mind, it seems like you were in that perfect time where the getting was good, the last great moment of, of the media, entertainment world. If you could put a year, like around what year did the, the media landscape kinda stop being a fun place that was ascending versus the, the-

No

... you know, the whatever it is now?

The '80s and '90s were ch- totally key. I mean, the '80s, you had the beginning of the cable TV revolution, and that kinda carried through big time, right on through to the '90s. So MTV, Comedy Central, all the cable networks were really like cash machines. And then we began to see the decimation of that as the digital revolution began in the early 2000s, and I'd say I left in 2006, and that's when, you know, YouTube had launched in 2005. Facebook was just getting going. And, uh, from there it was just a question of, uh, down- how do you manage your, your business going downhill as cable homes dropped off. More people, particularly younger people, were moving their, you know, their time on, in media to the internet, and various websites and so forth. And then social media came along, and it's been, it's been tough sledding.

Mm-hmm.

You know?

I, you know, I wanna ask you a question about Nielsen, uh, the ratings system.

Mm-hmm.

Because I, I want... I feel like that was accurate, and now everything we get is not accurate. Is that fair to say?

I, I think so. I mean, I, I don't know what their methodology is anymore. I don't know how they can keep track of... Everybody's on phones, and they're, uh, you know, they're, uh-

Mm.

Y- you know, you just don't know where... It used to be easy when you had three networks to meter, and then you had 35 cable networks.

[laughs]

They thought that was complicated. Now it's like infinite fragmentation.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, you know, there's smart people there, and they're trying to figure it out, and I haven't kept that close a track t- of it anymore, but I would imagine it's not as accurate as it used to be. You know, they can add up the traffic on websites and so forth-

Mm-hmm

... and aggregate it, but-

And on podcasts.

Podcasts are easy.

Yeah.

Like you guys. You guys know exactly how many people download you and how long they listen, right?

Yeah. I can't count that high thankfully, but yeah, it's... Yeah.

Yeah. Those are box car, box car numbers.

Exactly. [laughs]

Mm-hmm.

Exactly, yeah. Exactly. Some I can't really get-

We got their genders. We got their pronouns. We got it all, Tom.

[laughs]

[laughs]

I, I would say the data we get is maybe too much. Like, there's data I don't need. Like, I just want a n- a... I don't like data. I don't care about it, but I want one number that feels successful.

Like, like we sh- like podcasts should have one, like, FICO credit score to show the overall health and quality.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

That would be good. Yeah. I mean, even if you're like a, like a guy with 600 Instagram followers like me, you get all this data. I mean, and what am I gonna do? This is more data than I used to get running a cable network.

[laughs]

Well, Tom-

You know?

... luck- luckily for you, the trend now with g- it, it's a, it's considered hot for a guy to have low followers.

Oh.

So you're kind of, you're at the forefront.

Mine, you know, they're probably dying off of old age, and, uh, it's dwindling.

[laughs]

I need, I need new users.

[laughs]

But maybe it's good they're-

New users

... I get down to one or two people.

Yeah, you get all the way. Let's see it as low as you can go.

I'll be, like, totally analog.

Yeah, just one, one person is all you got left. One person.

[laughs]

Yeah. The nu- the nu... I mean, podcasting is... What is your podcast digestion? Do you, do you listen a lot or no?

I, I don't listen as much as I'd like to, because I don't really have these moments where, like, I'm driving a carOr, um, you know.

Yeah.

But I, I, I do SmartLess, I've listened to a bunch of yours, I do Walter Isaacson, I do some science stuff, I do stuff to The Daily and things like that. But I don't, I don't-

Sure

... I don't listen to podcasts or l- audiobooks as much as most other people do.

So you're not walking the dogs, you're not w-

I don't have a dog to walk. Or I'm not s- smoking a dog walker.

[laughs]

Or however that goes.

And you're not, you m- not a, not a ton of dish doing every night, and, you know, taking the trash out, things like that?

No.

Gonna clean out the garage, not a lot of that?

I live by myself, I don't have that much trash.

[laughs]

Damn, bro.

Really?

Tom, you're living the dream, man. All right, you live alone, you got no dog, you don't do dishes.

Oh, no, I don't do dishes.

Your doorman listens to your podcasts for you, probably.

[laughs]

[laughs] I don't know if it makes me a bad person, but, uh, you know.

No.

I think that all of our media consumption, uh, really is dependent on sort of age and habit, and w- how willing you are to break those. You know? Or, or modify those after years and years of doing it a way that works for you.

Yeah. I've been surprised, you know, I talked to my publisher, I, this is my first book I had out, so, so e-books and audiobooks are anywhere from 30 to 75% of the amount of books they sell these days. Which is, you know, the hardcover books are like a dwindling species.

Mm-hmm.

I said, "Where the hell do people have time to spend 13 hours listening to somebody's book?" You know? It's hard to just whiz through it.

I, I... Look-

But they do. I don't, I don't have a car, so.

I tried an audiobook one time, and I just was like, yeah, you know, th- I totally understand it and I think it's efficient, but it just didn't feel the same.

Yeah.

I l- I like a biography or a memoir for the audiobook-

Yeah

... while I'm, while I'm working out. That's what I like.

It's also r- if it's read by the author, it's kinda interest- you know, that makes it nice, I feel like. If it was-

Well-

You know.

Well, you gotta get mine, then. You know? Kinda, r- 11 hours of me. You know, you're only getting one hour.

Yeah. I can knock that out in a weekend with the kettle bells, Tom.

[laughs]

No problemo.

[laughs]

You don't listen to mu- you know, I, I mean, I work out, you gotta, like, listen to some upbeat music, so I guess, uh-

I, no, no, I'm already upbeat. And, and once we get to the SmartLess level, we'll be able to get the, the copy of the book and we can read it-

[laughs]

... before we have you on, so we can talk about your rich life and history. But it is an honor to be talking to somebody who was on SmartLess the same week, which means that we've, you know, closed the gap between our sworn enemies.

We consider, Tom, we consider SmartLess the enemy because they're doing exactly what we do, but they're rich from it. Um, and that's, it's sort of a, you know-

Just a few guys talking about some bullshit, and they happen to be very rich.

[laughs] They, I, they, they... I'm thinking this is the greatest job in America. They're getting $100 million deals.

Yep.

No set, no hair, no makeup, just-

No jokes. It's all there.

Yeah, they [laughs] like you guys. Yeah. Now, you say they're working in their underwear, and I can see you guys are, too.

[laughs]

[laughs] Well, look, when we get, when we get two different $100 million deals, my underwear's gonna change, too. It's gonna be a whole different me.

[laughs]

Yeah. But, but when they finish their, their Vuori underwear podcast, they go out and play golf and get lunch. I'm in the trenches. I have the episode fired up. He's doing the booking, I'm doing the post-production. We're m- we're promoting it ourselves, so, you know.

We're in the trenches, Tom.

Root for the little guy.

You know?

Mm-hmm.

We're like you selling clothes in India d- for year one.

Yeah. You're in the trench at the chateau.

[laughs]

[laughs] Look, hey, look, I'm saying there are some perks. I'm saying there are some perks. But we don't fly private. I just wanna put that out there. I, you know, this is-

I got that feeling.

[laughs]

[chime] Every time I go to the doctor, I walk out of that bitch feeling dumb. I got no real info. This guy in a white coat just say, "You're fine," you know? "Drink more water."

He knows how to charge my copay.

Exactly.

That's about it.

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What is Revolve, man, Jason? It's, oh, funny you ask.

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Genuinely, yeah. It's one of those things. We're all busy. Let's say we got an important dinner coming up at the end of the week. It's Tuesday. You're working every single day. You don't have time to go shopping and try clothes on and blah, blah, blah, or even just browse. You know, Revolve, it's all there. It's all curated for what you want, and then you click buy, you go to bed. Couple days later, that shows up in packaging that's a little nicer than y- the other places you're buying clothes from, and you've got a nice look for the big night out. And then you're like, "Wait a minute, I don't even have to return this because I enjoy this clothing and I wanna wear it again another time," versus all those dumb other websites. So whether it's a big night out, a wedding, a trip, or you just need something last-minute that actually works, Revolve, man, always has it. Go to revolveman.com/howlong to shop, and use code HOWLONG for 15% off your order. Free two-day shipping, easy returns. It just makes everything easier. That is revolve.com/howlong, and use the promo code HOWLONG to get 15% off your entire order. Offer ends soon. Don't sleep on it. And you don't need clothes, too. You can get just, you know, a cool candle or an incense gift for a baby shower. Whatever it is, revolve.com/howlongUm, okay, so we've got a lot of weird government shutdowns and things happening in the world. A lot of things that you used to do and be able to get away with, you know, tariffs, and international importing and exporting, and so a lot of gray areas and legal loopholes and things like that, that you've been able to sort of skirt around and take advantage of in your lifetime. After seeing all of that go down, what do you think the next kind of gray area or, like, little fuzzy loophole area is gonna be the next to crumble in our surveillance state?

You mean a loophole for what?

Just anyth- anything legal, you know? Just, like, how we used to be able to do all kinds of stuff, and now we can't at all, you know?

I don't know. It's kind of a dark time.

That's right.

You know-

You know, people keep-

... saying this. I went to JFK this morning. I had no problems at all. Fully staffed. And I feel like I keep hearing these horror stories on the internet, but no one-- I haven't heard one from a human being, human being's mouth. Well, you know, I look at the news. They got, like, these lines going out the door and around the corner of some of these airports. It looks like it's a nightmare. I haven't been fly-- I'm supposed to fly next week, so I'm a little terrified that, uh-

Mm

... I'm gonna be in one of those lines outside.

I think it's over. I feel like it's over to some extent. What is your... Did you build with Trump back in the day? I feel like you guys are probably crossing paths.

Trump's in the news today, right? [laughs]

Not, not in a business sense, just in a nightclub sense, you know?

Not in a business sense, just in a party, an Epstein party-

Yeah

... you know, just to chill.

You know, I, I, I, I didn't really know Trump. I don't really know Trump, uh, very well. I u- he used to always call up and want tickets to the Video Music Awards or the VH1 Fashion Awards, and we'd take care of him. And he, sometimes he would send me a note with that, you know, you'd see that signature.

Look, the guy's got a-

I had no idea

... the guy's done a lot of bad, but the signatures are amazing.

For all of his faults-

That's maybe his be-

... strong signature

... maybe his best work.

[laughs]

Yeah, the be- the signatures are amazing.

That's his best work.

[laughs] Like a Japanese calligraphy master.

I just feel like the idea of calling you to get tickets to an award show that you have nothing to do with is such a, it's such a ego move. It really says a lot about someone.

Well, you know, i- it was the MTV Music Awards. He figured I was sort of Mr. MTV, and you know, why mess around? Go to me. So yeah, give Donald Trump tickets. He, he was sort of a, you know, quasi-celebrity, uh-

Yeah

... he wasn't a real favorite in New York City, you know?

No, no, no. Still, still isn't, uh, you know, from what I can tell.

No, I mean, he, he, I think he got 20% of the vote the first time around.

From what I can tell. But the MTV-

Mm-hmm

... I, I've been to, I've been lucky enough to attend the MTV Video... Maybe, when did you say you stopped?

20- 2006.

Honestly, I think I went the year after for the first time. I, I think. I think.

Yeah.

But, but I remember, I, I used to manage a band-

Mm

... and, and I remember you looming large, uh, i- you know, o- our TRL success was very important to the Epic Records family. And, uh, I, I always found that TRL was such a magic time that can never be replicated.

Yeah. I mean, it, we had more of a, a monoculture. Now, what was the band?

They were called Cartel.

As in Mexi- as in Mexican? [laughs]

As in, uh, white guys from Conyers, Georgia. But yeah, it, the word is-

As in Venezuelan drug cartel. That's right, Tom

... the, the word is spelled the same, yes. The word is spelled the same. But that was the first time I ever... You know, we were in, like, the green room at TRL, and it was, like, uh, you know, us and Soulja Boy and, you know, and ac- and, like, Natalie Port-

Melissa Joan Hart.

Yeah, it was just, like, such a strange mix of people that you could get in the same room. And a- you're right, though. It, like, the audiences were all, there was one audience, so it worked.

Well, it was, you know, 'cause you'd have all three or four different music genres kinda locked together, whi- which I always liked. That's how radio was in the '60s, you know? AM radio, Top 40 radio was all kinds of different mus- the Rolling Stones, The Supremes. Now everything is-

Mm-hmm

... algorithmized, how you might say it.

Mm-hmm.

How were your relationships-

Yeah

... with the, like what, what relationships were you managing the most during those MTV days? Was it with record labels mainly, or was it with just your team, or did you have to interface outside of the building a lot?

Well, I, you know, we had to, I had to deal with the cable operators and satellite guys. They were our distributors.

Sure.

Then there was the advertisers who brought the money in. Those two groups brought the money in. And then there was the music industry, who gave us our programming. And I kinda always gravitated towards the music guys, 'cause they were, they love music and I love music, and we could kinda talk the same language. They were fun, they were clever, and, uh, we needed to have good relations with them, 'cause they were giving us these videos. So, you know, my default was sort of hang out with the people who were more fun. But I, I, I had exposure to-

Sure, sure. [laughs] Me too. Me too.

You know how that goes, right?

Yeah, I do.

If you gotta choose a side.

Yeah, I do. I'm trying not to kick it with the cable programmers quite as much as the A&R guys.

[laughs]

It does seem, you said the word clever, and the word clever struck out at me as we are, we, we could use a few more clever folks in, in this, in this whole world and industry.

You know, the, the, a lot of the creativity's been sucked out of the entertainment business at large in a way as companies consolidated and costs became paramount, and, uh, as these entertainment... You know, when we started MTV, there was 40 record companies. A lot of them were run by, like, entrepreneurs and who based o- on their taste.

Yeah.

And you love that, you know? The Ir- Ahmet Erteguns of the world and so forth.

Mm-hmm.

Chris Blackwell. Now, it's two and a half record companies really, you know, big ones.

Yeah.

They're all consolidated, so they, you know, they run more efficiently. But, you know, on one level you could say maybe music isn't as vibrant. I don't know if that's true. But the, a lot of the outsized characters that used to exist that made the business more interesting don't seem to exist anymore.

Mm.

And part of that is the woke, the woke thing kinda came along, and, uh, I don't know what happened to those characters. But it is, it is an, it, it, it seems not to be as much fun, and people that I talk to in that business seem to tell me the same. But I don't, you know, I don't know.

That's because they're looking at s- streaming numbers instead of out, you know-

Yeah

... discovering a band play, you know? It's a different thing. I, I think it's a different-

Yeah

... I think the job has changed. But you're right. I also think that that, the behavior that we're talking about and sort of the lifestyle is not rewarded in the same way that it was then.

That's true.

And I, I al- I think that, um-Back in the day, it was like the creative people were approached by the, by the nerdy people, the brands, the whatever, the money people, and they say, "You guys are awesome. Here's a bunch of money. Do whatever you want with whatever this is." And I feel like now the, the nerds are drunk with power, and they have the ability to call the shots. And now, you know, I feel like we need to get the creative people back to doing the creative work versus doing the bidding of the brands because it's the only money left.

Yeah, I mean, when the money got sucked out, I mean, in, in the '90s, say, it was raining money for a lot of places, so you could afford to make mistakes and take risks, and you weren't held under such a-

Mm

... a microscope about everything had to work and work really efficiently. And so it allows some sort of more creative, larger than life, interesting people to fit in there and survive and prosper.

We can't afford a mistake nowadays.

It's not raining money anymore. [laughs]

Yeah, I know. You're telling me. I would love to need an umbrella right now.

[laughs]

Um, I just wanted to ask about MTV News, because I think that i- if you're our age, Jason and I are both in our, like, early 40s, MTV News was... I mean, I remember, like, you know, life-changing events, hearing about them from-

Kurt Loder

... Gideon, Kurt Loder, Tabitha Soren. Like, those people were, like, sorta like, that's where... You know, they'd break in.

Michael Jackson died, you put on MTV, not CNN.

Yeah, when Kurt Cobain died, they'd break in and they'd, they'd give you the news, and I think that was pretty... I feel like you guys did a good job of delivering that in a way that resonated with your audience, but still got the, the meat of the story across without having to sorta put it on training wheels.

Yeah, the, the... People love the news, and we built up a formidable news operation. And, uh-

Mm

... there's a formidable news library going back to 1980 that still exists. And, you know, MTV now become kind of a repository for, uh, reality shows. 16 and Pregnant, whatever you wanna, you know-

[laughs]

... you wanna do.

Yeah, and speaking of, my con- ... Our condolences for your loss of Ridiculousness.

[laughs]

They even sawed the, they sawed the words Music Television off the bottom of the logo, 'cause they, the, all the music people who were there, there were great people there like Judy McGrath, and there's... I could list a whole, but they all kinda left, and kind of traditional TV people came in. So there's been no music equity really pumped into it. The news thing got marginalized. It was all about reality shows and ratings. And, you know, so now, uh, there's not much of a future for running music videos on traditional cable networks. The new owners there, the Ellisons-

Mm

... you know, they got a chance to reimagine what MTV could be as a music brand, 'cause I do believe, you know, people, you could get some corner of the music fan audience to go for some place where people are having cl- intelligent conversations about music.

I agree 100%. I mean, I, I say I c- you could bring back Unplugged, and that would be enough, honestly-

Yeah

... to some extent. I think that, like, that concept would resonate with an older audience, but also really capture a new one that hasn't experienced that before. You know, you can get all the, you can get Sabrina Carpenter to, to do-

Totally

... that. You, you-

Yeah

... you know, you can get these people that are really popular to do that stuff. But I think that the opportunity feels... I mean, everybody still makes music videos, which I always find interesting, because-

They make more. I looked it up. They're making more now than ever. I mean, they make 'em more cheaply, but there's still some-

Mm-hmm

... some great ones, you know?

No, no, but it's, it's, it's because YouTube is just a music discovery sur- It's, like, not about the video. It's about a place to discover the song.

Or the podcast.

Right.

Or the anything.

Yeah, yeah. It's a different thing, but it's like it, at least the video still gets made, I guess, but it's surprising how many, how many there are, and they pump 'em out.

And, but there's no context or conversation around it, or even about the music so much anymore. Uh, maybe in some places, but, uh-

Yeah, I've no- I've noticed when I go to Europe, they still play music videos on television, so-

Yeah

... it seems like it's a, the American attention span is particularly fucked.

I, I feel like the, the news and the video, like, those two things seem very different in a lot of ways, you know, as far as programming goes. But I, I feel like, was that, like, a struggle to make that work, or did it make a lot of sense based on the audience and sort of the, the, the way that the world felt at the time?

Well, you know, when we started, we used to run music videos pretty much back to back, then we realized we could-

Yeah, yeah

... be a bigger place if we were also about some of the things that the music was about, which, one of which was news-

Oh, I see

... and fashion, and things like that.

Yeah.

So we integrated that into the programming, and people were interested in that. And in the beginning, we found out, like, we did The Real World, which was firstly, like, the first reality show.

Show changed my life, Tom. That's one of the greatest s- it's... [laughs] Real World San Francisco is one of the greatest TV shows ever made.

Young people at that age, they like to look at their peers, and they get a lot of signals for how they're acting and what they're doing, and they're fascinated by it.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, but problem was, uh, it sort of became contagious. Then you had celebrity reality shows. We had The Osbournes, and then the networks realized that, hey, these reality shows are popular, and we can make 'em cheaper than scripted comedies or dramas.

Mm.

So the airwaves get... You know, now we're into The Bachelor and all these competitive shows, and I don't know, The Apprentice would be a good example. Wasn't, uh, didn't necessarily lead to-

[laughs]

Mm-hmm

... great things.

I mean-

It l- led to success for him.

Don't talk about Omarosa like that, one of our greatest, greatest ex-

[laughs]

One of, one of the interesting parts about, uh, MTV's growth that I heard you mentioning in some other interviews was that it grew first, and correct me if I'm wrong, in, in the Midwest, in the middle of the country, and then it took some time to eventually get LA and New York on board and s- and spread the, the good gospel about it, which seems like a thing that doesn't, it's the opposite of how almost everything works.

Yeah, there was one simple fact for that, which was that was early days of cable, so the cable really existed really in rural areas where people needed to get distant signals in.

Mm.

And they had wires-

Ah

... that allowed them to get the reception. So, you know, like a place like Tulsa or Wichita or Ja- Des Moines in the middle of America, they had large cable systems, and they needed programming when the-

Mm-hmm

... cable things started up, so we would get carried there. But no one in New York or LA who worked for us got us at home. There was no... You know, when we launched it, we had to find, there was, like, one bar in, uh-New Jersey that had a satellite dish. There was nobody had it. No one who worked there ever saw it.

[laughs]

So, uh, it gradually moved from the Midwest.

What a concept.

Moved from the Widwe- Midwest, and then, you know, if you were in the Midwest, MTV was, like, revolutionary in those days. It was, in a way, you know, hard to, hard to think now, you know? It was, uh, it wasn't like a flying car or something, but it had a new visual style and format that no one had ever seen before.

Might as well be an alien transmission of what's going on in the world-

Yeah

... back when there was truly nothing else like that ever-

Yeah

... ever.

Those were the golden days.

Yeah, I mean, it all goes back to technology, which is sorta crazy. You know, I always take that out of it, 'cause I don't care or don't, like, romanticize that, but that's, like, kind of what it comes down to. Like, the satellite is what [laughs] kinda made it all work.

But cable and then the satellite, I thought if, if, if in 1985 they had all the choices that we have today with the internet and satellite and all, you know, thousands of choices on every device, people would've loved it then. It wasn't like they suddenly got acclimated to this. It was it wasn't available.

Mm-hmm.

This is what people always wanted, to have control over what they wanted to see-

Mm

... wherever they wanted to see it, whenever they wanted to see it. So, you know, with technology, you're right, really, uh, as it evolved, people cheered for it.

Well, m- since we have a, a large brain in this space on the pod today, a lot of people talk about, like, the reverse engineering of cable into streaming, and now there's so many streaming services. You might as well go back to cable, and there's bundles and rundles and all these things going on. There's a new acquisition of a new network every day, and it doesn't make any sense. What do you... How, how do you think the next step should be to, like, get us back to a place that we can find some more financial success?

A first thing would be to, to be, uh, people be able to tell how many streaming service they have. It's like Substack. How many, you know, I, I... You have to... But it's like the old days of cable. You, there's so many of these streaming services.

I don't wanna see your, I don't wanna see your MX bill. I bet you got them all. You got Disney Plus, you got Paramount Plus, you got-

Well, and then you realize that you get Criterion and some of these niche ones, which are really good, but then you realize you don't watch them much. But, you know, it'd be nice if someone could put them all together in a bundle like the old cable system, right?

[laughs] Yeah. No, I, yeah.

This l- this the new boss, same as the old boss. And, uh, and then, you know, there's more choices within it. Some kind of packaging would be helpful to the consumer.

Okay. Do you, do you... I think, I think people are working on that, but using AI to potentially do that, figure out what your tastes are based on them monitoring every single thing that you've looked at on your phone in your entire life, and they know you more than you know yourself. And then every day, you open your TV or your screen or whatever, and there's 11 Criterion movies that you have never seen being recommended to you that are about to change your life, and a Bravo show, and a new record or whatever. Do you, do you feel like that's good even though it's AI based?

No. I, I, I-

[laughs]

... I, I don't like that because you never, you never... You're in a silo, and you never bump into any- something you don't know about. I heard someone say the other day, "Hey, you're on Instagram." You know, when they, all that stuff. "Press on something that you don't even care about and see where that leads you."

Be not interested.

And maybe-

Yeah, yeah, yeah

... you know, shift, shifts your, shift your algorithm and maybe-

Okay. That's what, that's what the random button is for.

Oh.

Shuffle mode, you know what I mean?

I don't have... I gotta find that. Man.

Oh, yeah, on that phone.

[laughs] Uh, you know, so you wrote this book, and I feel like there's been a, a handful of books from, you know, your contemporaries in, in other indust- you know, there's the Barry Diller, uh, there's the Graydon Carter, there's the Keith McNally. Have you read your competition? How do you think you stack up?

Well, I got a... Mine's a bit different. Sure. I mean, I, I, they, everyone would probably say that, but I mean, I try to make mine more an adventure story with a business story wrapped inside, and I had a different kind of career path.

You've done a lot of fu- you've done a lot of fucked up shit. Graydon Carter, you know, like, Graydon Carter had some magazines. [laughs]

Yeah. I mean, I took a lot of left-hand turns early on, and what I found that, you know, life off the mainstream was, could be a lot more interesting, and I would pursue those things and quit jobs and do different things and go live in different countries. And what I found out was that a lot of what I'd picked up in those years, which was, you know, living in Asia, for example. You know, you learn about humility, you learn about empathy, you learn about being, uh, you know, able to move, you know, with, and deal with eccentric people and deal with craziness.

Mm.

All of it sort of prepared me for... It was a perfect fit, in a way, to run an en- enterprise like MTV Networks was in its prime, which was sort of a creative-focused thing, always trying to push boundaries, and dealing with a lot of young people and, uh, being tolerant. That it, uh, that my background was different than, uh, your traditional television executive, and, uh-

Yeah

... it worked for me in that particular company. You know, if I was running a CBS, which really required more mainstream kinda perspective, I might not have been nearly as successful. But we, we attracted-

Mm

... you know, like, in our business, we, I put creative people in charge of all the networks, Doug Herzog, Judy McGrath, a wh- you know, and... 'Cause to me, that would send a signal to the employees that creativity was our main attribute, our main aptitude. That's what we focused, and we weren't looking so much for the financial results, we were looking for creative results. Wanted to encourage risk-taking and so forth, and it worked for a long time.

Mm.

And so I would say that if you l- look at my book, I mean, about two-thirds of it is about stuff outside the media business.

Mm-hmm. I know what you mean, but I think that there's, like... That was your experience, you know? With some of these, with some of these... But, like, some people wanna write 100 pages about their childhood. I don't give a fuck about that. Like, let's get to the good stuff. You had a lot of good stuff that wasn't necessarily, like, work-related in the, in the senses, uh, of the MTV sense.

Exactly. So-

That's a blessing

... so that would differ- that would be different for... And that's not to say these guys didn't have... You know, Keith McNally's book is great. You know, it's a great story about triumphing in New York with, uh, those restaurants, and, and Barry Diller, you s- and, and Graydon. I mean, they were very successful. But-Mine has a more of an element of adventure to it, and, uh, so-

Mm-hmm.

I would love to drop Graydon in Mumbai, see how he does, but that's a different, that's a different conversation.

[laughs]

That's a different conversation.

You know, I took him to, I, I took him to Cuba once, Graydon.

Wait, didn't you guys all meet Fidel?

We all had lunch with Fidel. Yeah, I wanted to go down there just to chase down the music scene.

Mm-hmm.

And then I told, uh, uh, Brian Grazer about it, and he said, "Oh, man, I wanna go." But he told somebody who told somebody, and then next thing I know, I got a, a plane load of, um, moguls flying to a communist-

[laughs]

... flying to a communist country I knew nothing about.

[laughs]

And when we get there, you know, i- i- it was 2001. You know, the, the, at the hotel, you know, there you had the Lucky Luciano Suite. The suites were all named after gangsters-

Mm

... at the hotel.

[laughs]

It was a crazy time in Cuba. Then they said, "Well, Fidel would like to meet you." 'Cause I had made some appointments at the Ministry of Culture to try and drill into the music scene there. They said, "Fidel wants to meet us. Come on." So we had lunch at the palace, and he wined and dined us. And he said at one point they had us in the, uh, Hall of Heroes or something, the Hall of Ferns, which is at the Presidential Pal- Palace. Well, when we met, we came, we had these rented convertibles, and we came up the stairs to the palace, and he's standing on the wa- to greet us, Fidel Castro.

Damn.

You know, a man from history.

[laughs]

And I'm thinking, "Jesus Christ, it's him. What's he gonna say to us?"

[laughs]

And he got, so he looks at us, the first thing out of his mouth is, "Which one of you guys made The Sopranos?"

Wow.

So that's what got, that's what got you in the door-

Man

... over there, I guess.

He said he's, like, the only subscriber of HBO in all of Cuba.

[laughs]

And Brad Grey raises his hand and he says, "That was me." So maybe they're gonna shoot me, you know? I mean-

[laughs]

... Castro had a bad re- uh, relationship with gangsters.

Guy hasn't been, been seen since.

That's, that's a g- that's a... So at that point, going to Cuba, you just had, you had to get, like, a travel visa. It was, like, some paperwork, but you could still go.

Oh, you had to get special visas.

Yeah.

And, uh, you know, I, so I found this guy, uh, Jonathan Brandstein from LA. He's a comedy manager. He would go there all the time, so he kinda wired me up. It was just gonna be me going-

Sure

... and before these other people came. And he said, "You can get a cultural exchange visa, and I could tell you how to do it," blah, blah, blah. So this guy knew all the tricks of how to do it, 'cause it wasn't as easy as it might have been, like, during the Obama era. And then, uh, when it came out that we had lunch with Fidel Castro for five hours and people got ahold of that, they called the, the, the Bush White House and Cheney White House, and I got a letter saying, uh, "You went to Cuba, you had lunch with Fidel Castro. We're fining you $55,000."

Wow.

I go, "Whoa, whoa. Man, that's, that's, uh, ruined my day." And then, you know, we had the, I had got, we got Ry Cooder. You remember Ry Cooder? He did the Buena Vista Social Club.

Yeah, of course. [laughs]

He had the same problem. And he got a lawyer, and I said, "So we got a lawyer." And there's a lawyer who used to work at the Treasury Department fining people for doing exactly this.

Wow.

He went to the, he, he went to the dark side. He crossed over.

He, he crossed over, and now he's representing people like this who he used to prosecute. So he said he'd get the fine down. So we all hired him and, you know, we still had to pay a lot of money 'cause his fees were high.

So you're telling me that all of you guys got hit with a fine for going?

Yeah. Except Graydon Carter, because, uh-

He's Canadian?

He was a, he was Canadian [laughs] and he was a journalist.

Wow.

Oh, I see. They were making-

And journalists, journalists were exce- exempt. So yeah, we all got hit with $55,000 fines, and we had to, you know, hire this guy.

I would've sent that invoice over to the desk of Fidel Castro.

[laughs]

You gotta pay for that one, daddy.

Yeah. Fi- Fidel, call Cheney and work this out. I don't, I don't have time for this.

Okay. That actually, Tom, that reminds me of a question I wanted to ask you. Who's the last person you had dinner with where you did not pick up the check?

Where I did not pick up the check?

Yeah.

[laughs] Yes, yes.

I had dinner last night with a guy, Oz Whelushen, who's got a company called Kaleidoscope. He's a podcaster.

Yeah, yeah.

He picked up the check.

Wow.

God bless him.

[laughs]

Okay. Just-

Where'd you guys go eat?

I, I... Look, I grab as many free checks as I can. I'm, you know-

Okay

... few and far between, I'm sure, so you gotta take them when they come. Well, you know, it's not like I'm running around with an expense account anymore.

This is coming out of Tom's pocket, so you gotta sort of protect the-

Right.

Sure, of course.

Right. Mm-hmm.

What, where do you eat in New York? Where, where are your s- where are your favorite spots? I live in New York, by the way. I, I didn't, I, I'm, I'm just here visiting. But I live-

Oh, do you?

... I live downtown. I live, um, right near the courthouse, like, sort of between Chinatown and Tribeca, so I, I'm in your general old, your former area.

Yeah. Well, I go down there. Where was I the other night? Uh, the Bowery Hotel, in that area. And I went to, uh, they have an LA branch they just opened down there, Gelina.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The, yeah, yeah.

Mm.

There's a new Gelina. It took a while to open it, and that's good.

Well, it opened-

It was just there

... and then it had a f- a questionable fire.

Had a flood or-

And then-

Yeah.

[laughs]

Special kind of fire.

A special kind of fire.

[laughs]

But it, honestly, Gelina in New York is a very different experience, and it's pretty good. And it, the, the room, it, they did a really good job on the build out. It's very nice. Like, the, the actual space is very nice.

So I like going there. And, you know, a, a whole b- whole host of downtown spots and uptown spots. I'll go to, like, uh, there's a place called Lilio's, kinda old-school Italian up on the East Side.

Mm-hmm.

Or, uh, The Modern, which is connected to MoMA. That's kinda fun to go to if you're going to a show or something. Uh, the, the, I still go to The Waverly over on, uh, Jane Street.

Love The Waverly.

Over by, it's on Waverly, yeah. Corner of Waverly.

No, the, I, I lo- I hadn't been there in a long time, and I went recently and I forgot how fun it is. It feels like a real, uh, relic, in a good way.

Yeah. It's a nice spot. Yeah.

Dark. [laughs]

So you're in New York, are you?

Yes, sir. Yeah, yeah. I've lived in New York for, at this point, I don't know, 16 years maybe. So I feel naturalized to, to some extent. Um, you might agree with me, but I think if New York works for you, there's kinda nowhere else to live. And if you like it, then it's ki- everything else is sort of boring.

Yeah. I, I went to school here, and then I just kinda always kept a place. And, uh, after the pan- you know, during the pandemic, a lot of people I knew, they all moved out to California, Hudson Valley-

Right

... Long Island, wherever.Florida. And a lot of them didn't come back, but I see them now starting to come back 'cause they miss the action.

Yeah.

I mean, I w- I've been here all fall, and it's really been fun. There's so- there's a lot, so much going on. I mean, it's hard to, you know, even we got a new mayor coming in now. I mean, the city's sort of electric, particularly you go to south of 14th Street, you really got a, a good, uh, vibe that things are going up. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, up, up where you are, things are always the same I think, and that's the point. It's b- it's just serene, and I, uh, at least you can come down a little bit and get the action. It's not hard. It's not far.

No.

Do, so you never lived, you, did you ever move the whole operation to LA, or were you always in New York?

Uh, no, I was, New York was my base, but I would spend four to six a months, four to six months a year there.

Okay.

You know, 'cause we did a lot of business there. We had offices in Santa Monica. We had a, a animation studio in Burbank. And, uh, I love being in LA, particularly in the winter, particularly right around now when it's getting cold, you know? [laughs]

Sure, sure, sure. No, last night, yesterday I was like, "Oh, shit, it's happening." It's like I had to put on a real jacket yesterday-

Exactly-

... for the first time

... what I thought. That cold wind comes around off the river, and you go, "Oh."

I was, I was like, "I gotta put up a goddamn hat on now. This is not what I bargained for." I also wanted to ask you about the, the Vice stuff 'cause I was very close to that, and that chapter, uh, is funny. And I think that, um, you captured Shane and that whole thing as a guy coming in as sort of like a successful adult. [laughs] I think you really captured it, uh, in the right way as far as, like, the temp check on it. But I feel like you've seen a lot of fumbles in your, in your career. I feel like that's one of the be- the worst fumbles of all time.

Yeah, they made some big fumbles, and it's too bad because for a long year they had a great run, you know? I mean, I was involved with, uh, you know, I helped get them, uh, the, as HBO show, which really-

Yeah

... elevated their whole game and, and made them better at it, and they were great at it. And Shane was great at sniffing out a cool story that was sort of on the edges and putting it together. He loved doing that. And in his heart, he really wanted to, you know, not just entertain, but to like inform young people and take them to different corners where, you know, mainstream media wasn't covering it. And then, you know, they would spend too much on it. And, uh, you know, he, there was a thing where we're always gonna get bigger and bigger. We're gonna grow this thing to the sky, and a lot of times the organization didn't keep up with that. But they had attracted this cadre of young journalists who really wanted to do good work there.

Mm-hmm.

And they did. And then, you know, because the finances were out of whack, the thing kind of imploded. And, uh, you know, they bring in a private equity company, and, uh, you know, there's certain, like certain handcuffs on the business, and-

Mm-hmm

... it didn't end well. [laughs]

I just know a lot of guys that I think were told very convincingly they were gonna be very rich, and then, uh, they aren't. It did not work out that way, uh, after it was all done.

Options, look, I, uh, you know, you're looking at one. [laughs]

[laughs]

You had a better, bigger chunk coming for you than, uh, than Eddie did?

I had a ch- I had a chunk, yeah. You know, the o- the, all the options were worth zero.

[laughs] Oh, man.

So you're saying that you ... Wait, did you invest or were you just on the board?

I invested some money. I mean, wasn't, I brought in to help bring in investors, uh-

Yeah

... initially. Then I c- then they did that very well on their own. You know, they, it was a continual process. [laughs]

Hmm.

But I, I got options in the company, and I helped, uh, connect them to other people. I was on the board. I was a consultant. I would spend a lot of time with them. I enjoyed going, uh, to Williamsburg and seeing it, and I would see Shane all around. Travel, he used to travel around. I'd see him in Afghanistan. I'd see him all over the place, and his people, Ben Anderson. I knew a lot of the reporters there, Michael Moynihan. Yeah, but all, and a lot of them, uh, who started at the very beginning had big equity positions-

Mm

... that they were counting on, and everything was just wiped out.

Hmm.

And then there was the investor class, you know, the, the, the Disneys and the CVCs-

Yeah

... and all these other people who had invested, the Murdoch. They all got wiped out, too.

And Shane had, Shane left with how much money?

Uh, that, you'd have to ask him.

Mm-hmm.

That's how much it is, Jason. That's how much it is.

[laughs]

I mean, uh, he's never disclosed it. I don't know. I mean, uh, you know, people would take out, some of these guys would take out money every year. Some of them would borrow money against their equity, and like box cars of money. And then when, when the thing began to implode, they had to pay it back.

Hmm.

Geez, I don't like that.

So it wasn't like you're not gonna get anything. It's like the stuff you've got, you gotta sell your houses and boats and everything.

[laughs] Gotta pay back? Yeah, you gotta sell your boat.

God.

That, that is-

Yeah, I mean, he probably got a, you know, at least 100, 100 million.

When he got that, he bought that crazy house that you me- you mentioned the house. Like, that was, like, a big, when he did the Wall Street Journal picture of the house, people were like, "All right, go fuck yourself. This is a little much. This castle is, like, a bit much." Um-

Yeah

... well, a- as far as investing goes, have you had a real hit th- or have you had something that you really thought was gonna go and it flopped besides Vice?

Yeah. I mean, I, I'm, I'm kind of a conservative, but I've invested in a bunch of stuff that hasn't worked.

Sure.

You know? Uh-

And the, and, but do you go outside of your interest areas, or you kind of like to stay in stuff that you-

Oh, wait, wasn't there a little, there was a little MySpace at some point, right?

Well, we looked at MySpace when I was at, uh, when I was a CEO of, uh, Viacom and, uh, I got promoted up to that level. And, uh, we looked at it, and we didn't, never made a bid, and then Rupert Murdoch came in and bought it.

Mm-hmm.

But we were interested in the social media space because we kind of saw what was coming, the idea that you're gonna be a gatekeeper network. But now we had something where people could connect per, peer to peer. They could com- you know, YouTube was really, to me, the game changer of all. You know, you could upload your own video. You could share it and you could comment on it and all, and, and, and, you know, it, it, it's now worth, uh, you know, $550 billion. It's become so much more than what any of us ever imagined was possible. They took that simple little model and built an infrastructure around it and kept innovating, and it's like, I wouldn't say it's a monster 'cause that's a bad term. I mean, it's, it's, it, it's-

Yeah

It's a pheno- it's a phenomena.

Yeah. I think it's bigger than it ever has been, and like you said, in ways that maybe people didn't expect it to be. Or, like, the use is different than people expected it to be.

Yeah, you watch YouTube TV, for example. That which, you know-

Yeah

... like, what, that's the greatest interface television's ever had.

That shit costs me $80 a month. Yeah, it kills me.

Yeah.

Kills me.

And now we can't get ABC.

See? I got, I got, I got a Disney, I think I got a $20 Disney credit 'cause they had a blackout-

[laughs]

... recently with YouTube T- I got all these emails, class action lawsuits. I don't, I don't keep up.

It's tough, guys.

What is, so what is your relationship with Rupert Murdoch over the years, and how does it stand now?

I haven't seen him in a while. I mean, we were competitors, but I was friend- I was friendly with him.

Of course.

You know, I c- I had issues of course with Fox News, but I was friendly with him. And then this guy, Saad Mohseni from Afghanistan, came to see me, and he's the guy who enlisted me and invited me to come back and start this media company there after the fall of the Taliban, which I was, like, eager to do when I left Viacom. I said, "That sounds fun. I go back and do something kinda purposeful, and I could be back in this country," that still remained a fascination to me.

Yeah.

And then he was described to me initially as the Rupert Murdoch of Afghanistan, which, you know-

What a title

... I spit up my Pellegrino when I heard that.

[laughs] You're like, "Is, is that good or bad?"

But then he, he came, and, uh, because then I said, "You know what, Saad? I'm gonna introduce you to the real Rupert Murdoch."

[laughs]

And, and Saad had been, uh, his father was a diplomat in Afghanistan, and they were in Japan when the communist coup came. And, uh, they g- they, they, they became refugees, and they found their way to Australia. So he's Australian like Rupert.

Ah.

So he, he and Rupert really hit it off, and Rupert and News Corp became an investor in his company-

Wow

... on successive rounds, and that was a great thing. And then, uh, you know, he became buddies with James, and, uh, but, and Rupert was, um, I, my ex-wife was very friendly with his, uh, his wife, Wendi.

Sure.

One of his ex-wives. He's had a-

Yeah, he's had a few.

Old Rupe's had a couple.

He's had a run of them. [laughs]

He's had to ta- he's had to, he's had to peel off some duckets in court. But the, so did-

[laughs]

Are we talking, like, double date friends, or are we talking, like, friendly when we see him at a charity event?

Yeah, that, and then there, there were times when I would double date, you know, I mean, way back.

Sure, I love that.

I wouldn't call it, we, we'd never call it a double date. "Hey, I'll pick you up in my car."

"Hey, Rupert Murdoch, do you wanna go on a double date this weekend?"

[laughs]

[laughs]

[laughs]

"No, no, I'll bring my wife."

"You and ice skating."

"It's not, it's not weird if we're both gonna bring our wives."

[laughs] With the wives this time.

No, I think that, well, wives will bring you together with people maybe you wouldn't, you know, maybe you'd sit across the table from in different scenarios, let's say.

Well, yeah, look, no matter what you say about him, he's an interesting character.

Totally. No, I mean, that's what I've taken away from you in general, too, is, and I, I feel like this myself. I'm attracted to the, the business is, like, secondary to the characters and, like, the personalities.

Yes.

That's the most-

Yes

... interesting part of anything, really.

Yeah.

You know?

A, a freak is a freak.

Sometimes I think that's what's being taken out of the business in these last few years.

Mm.

You know, the personal relationships.

No, I mean, it's, that's like Jason s- like Jason said earlier, it's, it's the nerds and the numbers, and I think the personality stuff has been sort of, you know, put to the backseat. And, and hopefully we can get there. You know, it, it doesn't seem to be trending in that direction by any means, but hopefully we can get there because I think that-

We need to make bullying great again.

Exactly. [laughs]

The first step in our initiative.

Exactly.

Yeah. Well, maybe it's a pendulum and it swings back. I hope so.

Let's hope so.

I think, I think there's probably some, there's a possibility. Uh, uh, yeah, I think that that always happens to some degree.

I mean, there still are, there still are companies around the edges. Like, you know, look at A24 and some of these young movie studio-

Yeah, yeah

... m- movie companies that are pretty interesting, and they still rely on gut and instinct, and they take chances. And, uh, you wanna root for them.

Mm.

But I think that, I think A24 is a pretty good example, a- and film in general is, like, I think that a lot of that stuff, you, you can miss a lot and hit a lot, and it kinda evens out. Like, you can miss a lot and hit a lot less, and it evens out, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.

Yeah.

'Cause I think the budgets are so, the budgets vary so much depending on what the project is.

And if it's an independent company and it isn't wedged into a public company, it's not trapped into having to grow to the sky-

Yeah

... every year, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

You can have a bad year, but, you know, I'm not gonna-

Right

... I'm not gonna fire everybody.

You're s- you're still rich.

We're not turning the lights off.

It's, you, you don't have to go-

You, yeah

... exponential hockey stick year over year until you die.

That's right.

That will ruin something. All right.

Um, I gu- I guess speaking of the cy- cyclical really quick as we end, the book called Unplugged, obviously a reference to the MTV Unplugged series. Maybe not a, a complete inspiration for it, but of all, uh, of all the Unpluggeds over time, what has been your favorite episode?

Oh, there was a few. Uh, LL Cool J was a, he did a great one.

Yeah? [laughs]

You know?

Wow, that, that-

Yeah

... I gotta say, it's an unexpected answer.

Mama Gonna Knock You Out. I mean, yeah, he was really-

People talk about it 'cause that was an early one

... fucking playing with a band. You know, we did an early-

Yeah

... one with Paul McCartney to kick butt. Nirvana, of course, was the big one 'cause I remem- I'll remember that so clearly. We did them with Dylan. We did them with, like, uh, you know, a whole run of people. REM did a great one. There were some-

REM's my favorite. Uh-

I'm partial to the Alice in Chains. Little more dirt under my nails than you guys.

Mm-hmm.

You know, a little more working class. It's fun.

Well, uh, my, mine are painted like Michael Stipe, so, uh... [laughs]

[laughs]

What, what is the, w- Tom, can we watch those any, 'cause they're not on YouTube, right? Is it on one of the-

Yeah, yeah. I think if you go onto Paramount Plus, I believe they're all there. There's a big library of those. There's a big library of another show I really love, which was on VH1 called Behind the Music.

Storytellers? Oh, Behind the Music, yeah, yeah.

And Storytellers too.

Oh, yeah.

But Behind the Music is sort of the predecessor for all these music docs we see today-

Yeah

... which are also, I, I, I love them. You know, I'll watch almost any one, whether it's good or bad.

Yeah, I, I love it when there's a, a, an old guy behind a mixing board and he's pulling up the old, you know, he's got the Neve console, and we're gonna bring the hi-hats in, and then everyone's like, "Oh, that's that stuff. That's that magic."

[laughs] Yeah.

It doesn't even matter if it's a band I don't like.

Yeah, it's true.

I'm still watching every episode.

No, I'm with you. I'm with you on that.

And you're right. They, they could be bringing them back now with, like, Sabrina Carpenter and people like that, but they, there's no, there's no infrastructure. They need to hire some music people.

Absolutely.

That would be what, that would be a start.

Yeah. I think it's gonna, I think it's unfortunately gonna happen probably somewhere else, you know? I think that, that concept will have-

Could be.

It's happening now at NPR.

Yeah, I mean, yeah.

Like I said, the nerds have taken over.

Exac- yeah. Uh, all right, Tom.

[laughs]

Thank you for joining us. Uh, the book is, when's the book out?

The book comes out next, uh, Tuesday, the 18th of November.

Next Tuesday-

18th

... the 18th of November. Get it wherever you get books.

Bob Lefsetzglazing review this morning on the email. He really loved it

I saw Lefsetz and I, well, that warmed my heart. I was at dinner last night getting that free dinner.

Yep. That's right.

And my, and my, my phone started blowing up-

[laughs]

... you know, with all these emails about Lefsetz. And I, you know, I read that 'cause he's a, he's, he can be harsh. I mean, he, he cranks out so much stuff, it's remarkable. But he, that was a very nice one, yeah.

Yeah, we, we had him on-

He got the book

... a couple years ago. He was a goddamn bulldog talking to him, good Lord.

He did not, he did not like us. He did not.

Oh, no?

Well, I think, I think he just didn't get what we were doing.

He was just like, "What is this? What is this operation-

Yeah, it was a very weird-

... you're trying to run here?"

But I've been, I mean, I've been reading Bob Lefsetz, like, since 2006. Like, that was the first newsletter I may have ever subscribed to, honestly.

Remember, it used to come out in paper.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, that and Hitz Daily Double were the bo- that, that was it. Like, that was-

Yeah

... sort of the music business news that wasn't, you know, from a major source. But anyway, all right, the book is out the 18th. Tom, thank you for joining us. We appreciate it. And, um-

Okay

... we'll see you soon. All right.

Thanks. Thanks Jason. Thanks Chris.

Of course.

Okay.

Our pleasure.

Take care.

Later.

A pleasure, Tom.

Enjoyed talking to you guys. Bye-bye.

Son, she said, "Have I got a little story for you. What you thought was your daddy was nothing but a... While you were sitting home alone at age 13 and..."

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