893. - Joe Weisenthal

All right, uh, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian, and they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world, and they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you?

We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place.

All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. [upbeat music] How Long Gone. Good to hear from you, bitch. It's Chris Black. Jason, what's going on?

Hello, bitch, it is me, Them Jeans. What's up?

What's up, bro? Just getting my cables correct, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

I'm just on the grind. It's another day in New York City, just getting ready to head out to Mexico tomorrow. I saw some pictures of, um, Brooks Nader and her sister on the beach in, in Mexico and I, I wonder if that... I- if, if... Do you think the crowd at the Wilco Sky Blue Sky Festival is gonna look-

[laughs]

... in any way similar to Brooks Nader and her sister sort of playing on the beach in, in Cancun?

Let's see here. Let's... Um, I've, I think I have the photo pulled up. It's funny 'cause Brooks Nader really just sounds like a 56-year-old country music musician. You know? Just like-

[laughs]

... a, a guy from Kentucky.

No, it does. No, I mean, I agree. It's-

Or, or like a young, new quarterback coming out of Oklahoma.

Oh, Brooks Nader, I mean, the rushing yards alone, I mean, this guy's crazy.

And, and not a, a woman that appears to be designed by Grok.

I mean, if that's what Gro- if that's what Grok's doing, I'm gonna start using it.

Brooks Nader, Las Ventanas al Paraiso. The caption, "Old lips, new clothes, same me." What does old lips mean?

She... Well, she dissolved, she dissolved all of her filler, uh, to make her dad happy.

Love that you know this. Love that you know this.

So, so I just wondered.

[laughs]

I mean, it's something you could think... I know your mom's sort of been on you about, about-

She said, "I want my baby back."

Yeah. [laughs]

"Who... I don't... I look at you, I don't know who it- who you are."

[laughs] "I can barely recognize them big titties from across the beach." Um, so she-

[laughs]

Yeah, she's getting the filler removed, which caused... I was talking about... 'Cause everybody's talking about Emma Stone's new face.

Yeah.

Emma Stone has a new face. She looks amazing.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and-

It made me forget her Golden Globes look

... all women are talking about it, chattering about it, and there's, you know those that guy on, on Reels or TikTok or whatever that sort of, like, breaks down-

Mm-hmm

... all, he, you know, and, and of course we pulled-

60 cc of

We of course pulled that up, uh, at my household as soon as Emma made her debut, and it's, like, it's a lot of stuff, but I think it's just of the highest quality.

It's a top-down fundamental-

Yeah

... restructure, reorg.

But she doesn't look not herself to me. She just likes the, looks like the best version of herself, you know, which is-

Eh, I, I'm gonna push back on that, player, because I think that she crossed a little bit into the, into the danger zone, the uncanny valley where... Because there, I've s- I've seen people and they're, they're posting photos of, like, all, all, everyone is starting to look like the same person. So she has become 50% the same person, the ideal facial looks maxing program based on whatever criteria that was designed by Persian guys in Beverly Hills, and then 50% Emma Stone, the, the God-created, mother-birthed face.

Well, let, let me tell you something, Jason. What, what would you ra- what do you wanna be? Do you wanna be looks maxing, Clive LeCler 50%-

[laughs]

... and 50% real TJ? Or are you good being 100% real TJ?

100% real TJ always and forever.

I... Look, I'm with you, but I, I think that as a woman in Hollywood, the pressures are immense, especially when the budget is no issue. You know what I mean? When you can spend literally $1 million to get everyth- everything at the highest degree.

Look, to me, this is a waste, it's a waste of a face. Emma Stone has been a very successful actress. She then redoes her entire face. Of... She does look good, I'm not gonna argue with that, but her acting career seems to... She's still busy, but her success and I feel like her, her stock and her day rate-

That you are wrong

... has sort of gone down into, like, the, the world. You know, she's, she's doing these Yorgos flicks that make 7 million and nobody sees them and, you know, who... People watch Begonia more because Stavi's in it, you know? I mean, it's-

Oh, I wouldn't go that far, but I would say that-

She's not, she's not, like, doing anything

... that's, you're absolutely wrong.

Okay.

She's doing-

Check the SoundScan, bitch. You wanna, you wanna do this?

No, but that's not the point. That's not the point. Once you win an Oscar-

The point is what? To get the Bulgari air- air- airport ad?

That makes you more money than any movie.

[laughs]

So yes.

I know, but I'm saying she doesn't need any more money. I mean, I guess that's why she's doing these Yorgos flicks.

Everybody needs more... This is what people say this all the time, "Everybody needs more money." What are you talking about?

[laughs]

Everybody needs more money. I hate this argument. No matter who you are, no matter how much money you have, no matter how much money you give to charity, you still want more.

Oh, well you just change it from need to want. You can't do that, you little sheisty bitch.

I think it's, it's all... I just don't think this whole thing, like-

Two very different words

... they don't need any more money doesn't mean you're not gonna make any more money when it's handed to you, though. You know what I mean? It's not like she's-

Yeah, but I'm saying the money is being handed to her, so why are you going and, and putting the car up on, on bricks and getting under the hood and redoing the whole thing when the car, when everything was running fine?

You're, what you're forgetting, 'cause what you're forgetting is you-

Am I forgetting Father Time and his aging? [laughs]

You, of course, as usual, well, as usual, you're discounting the patriarchy and the pressures put on women to look young no matter how old they are.

I like to think that Emma operates outside of those laws and rules. I don't think she's-

No one operates outside. These things exist because no one, no matter how much money you have, the insecurities still lurk.

Mm.

Because that stuff sort of, I think that stuff's sort of baked in at a certain age, and no matter what-You feel good some days, you feel, you feel less good the other days. But when you have to look at yours- I mean, look what Zoom's done to people.

[laughs]

Imagine that being... [laughs] Imagine, imagine your face being on billboards and movie screens and television screens for your entire life, you know?

I just wonder-

Like, we got, we got-

If you, if you get, you know, 12 different things done to your face and you look at one of your contemporaries who didn't, do you think to yourself-

Well, that's the thing

... Jesus.

Who didn't? That's the question. [laughs] Who, who doesn't... Like, which contemporaries you talking about, big dog?

Okay. I mean, uh, I feel like, I feel like Jennifer Lawrence seems to-

Oh, you're... No

... sort of look. [laughs]

No, no, no, no, no, no. You are wrong, sir. Je- Jennifer Lawrence has definitely... I mean, I think it's all like-

Well, I, I mean, of, of course everyone's had a little work done, but there's-

No, no, I think any of these people who-

But everyone has, is like, no one has said, "Jennifer Lawrence has an entire new face."

Well, that's be-

No one's ever said that

... I think that if-

There's, like, dissertations written about how much work Emma Stone has had done.

But that's just because I think-

And she was a one-of-a-kind unique face.

I don't... Yeah, I mean, do you wanna be one-of-a-kind unique or bad as hell?

Jennifer Lawrence address, uh, openly addresses her plastic surgery rumors, admitting to using Botox, but has never used fillers.

Well, that's fi- You, yeah, but this is what, this is what all these people do. It's like Kendall Jenner saying she's never done anything. It's just, you can just lie. [laughs] Like, what is the proof?

I know. I know.

Like, what is the-

I know.

I think the proof is also like-

But I, but you could tell. The uncanny valley, you could tell, right?

You can't tell. You definitely can't, and I don't think I can either-

[laughs]

... is what I'm trying... [laughs] I'm trying to tell you that, that they're, these, these chicks are playing at a level that, that is incomprehensible-

Sure

... to the male, to the male gaze.

Sure, sure, sure.

Unless, unless you're a medical doctor. That's all I'm saying. But I think that, obviously, I think I like that, that you just do whatever you want. I think the speculation around it is, like, pretty crazy.

Mm-hmm.

But there's no question. Yeah, I mean, I'm looking at this side by side. There's no question that Jennifer Lawrence ha- They've all done something. I think that's fine.

The only difference between these photos is 20 years and eyeshadow, and I did not mean to sound so gay when I said that.

That is the gay- [laughs]

[laughs]

I was about to say, I wanted... I texted you earlier 'cause there was a-

[laughs]

'Cause Ben, Ben Affleck and Matt Damon are promoting some new movie where they're in it together, you know? And there was a, and Andy Cohen, you know, is sort of, like, looking for a Brokeback Mountain type storyline for these two.

Mm-hmm.

And, and Matt Damon reveals to Andy that, that he and Ben almost adapted The Dreyfus Affair, uh, which is a book about two baseball players who fell in love, but the script just wasn't good enough. My question to you is, now that this, this, this script has been mentioned again in the press, do you think we've got some agents over at CAA or William Morris trying to package this thing up and get Austin Butler and Jacob Elordi to kiss? Like, do you think that this-

Mm-hmm

... do you think this idea still has legs? And who are the young hotties that should sort of fill in for Matt and Ben as they, as they cross over into the, into, you know, sort of the last half of their lives?

Well, to me, it just, it's the, the timing of this resurfacing while the biggest thing in culture is-

Mm-hmm

... two guys playing sports who, what if they kissed?

Well, that's why this came up. I mean, that's why this came up.

Yeah, yeah. Matt is eating Canadian nachos. He's [laughs] eating Heated Rivalries poutine, trying to get some scraps for The Dreyfus Affair. But I mean, it'll definitely work. It doesn't matter who... I mean, this is, like, this is-

That's true. [laughs]

This, this is the tree that keeps on giving.

Right. It's like it doesn't-

I mean, for-

Put anybody in it

... like we were talking about on literally the last episode 24 hours ago or whatever it was, like, what is Heated Rivalry about? It doesn't matter. What is this baseball movie about?

It doesn't matter.

We find the two hottest young male actors doing manly stuff that's super straight, and then what if they kissed? And then that is it.

Do you think there's a, do-

It's apple pie and or- and, and vanilla ice cream. It's never gonna stop.

Do you think though in a post-Heated Rivalry world that-

[laughs]

... that we could, we could do it with nobodies the way that Heated Rivalry was? Or do you think now we might need a little somebody?

I mean, Challen- Challengers, they weren't nobodies, but they weren't A-listers at the time, right?

No, but-

They were still, they were still a little re- relatively, you know, they were mid-level.

Zendaya is, but Zendaya is in it, you know what I'm saying?

True, true.

There's, there's, there's other reasons to... Yeah, I mean, I agree with you, but I, I wonder. I mean, I think that, like, baseball, um, is strangely the least gay sport that I can think of actually.

Mm.

Like, as far as, like, physical tou- You know what I mean? Like, football is extremely homoerotic.

Yeah.

Um, hockey I didn't think it was-

Yeah, there's not a lot of-

... but obviously it is

... what if a big strong man pinned me down when you're in, uh-

No, there's no pinning

... when you're in fourth. [laughs]

There's no, there's no Jeremy Allen White in a singlet wrestling. This is just straight up, like, guys that are 20 pounds overweight now, like, swinging a bat.

You know, maybe... Is, is golf the straightest sport, followed by baseball?

Yeah, you're probably right, because there's zero contact in golf.

Zero.

It's just you and the balls. It's just you and the balls.

Exactly. [laughs]

Um, but it's... So that, that does, that does change the equation. Cha- changes the equation just a lit- just a little bit. Just a bit outside.

Just me and the balls.

Just a bit outside. Yeah, I, I was happy. I, I like that Matt Damon and, and... I, I think when they do press together, it makes them, it reminds you how likable they both are. 'Cause I think Ben Affleck is a very, very smart, talented guy that gets a lot of flack for his personal life, and I think when they, they get together, it's actually quite funny and entertaining, no matter what the, what they're-

Yeah

... promoting. You know, which I think is, is good for us all, since we're used to these fucking brain-dead celebrity interviews where nobody says anything or has any fun.

Yeah. Can you... Wait, hold on one second, Chris. Sorry.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sorry about that. I was just shitting in the mother toilet. Um, where were we?

We were just talk- we were talking about Affleck and-

Affleck

... Affleck and, and, uh, Matt Damon being so charming that you forget that, like, actor... Oh, wow.

[laughs]

Oh, wow. Okay.

Oh, this motherfucker. Damn. Okay. Okay. Well, it looks like, um-

Prompt, prompt-ass motherfucker here

... speaking of shitting in the mother toilet, our guest is here three minutes early.

We'll see you in Mexico if you're going. Um, and, and can't wait to, uh, to see Jason on the beach frolicking, but we do have a guest today.

Thanks for all the people who reached out and said they're gonna smuggle gummies over the Mexican border for me.

I don't think that's that dangerous. Uh, Joe Weisenthal-

It's not

... is, is here with us today. He is, uh, a long time, uh, executive editor at Bloomberg News, but he also does the very popular Odd Lots, uh, podcast.

A podcast stalwart.

That talks about stuff that, uh, is far, far above Jason and I's pay grade.

No, they talked about a, um, a racist restaurant in Washington DC that's right up our alley.

Oh, hold on. Okay, so we do have something to talk about 'cause if I was-

Yeah, MAGA Bites.

I was just gonna ask for stock tips and see what... If I should buy gold or not, but we've got some-

What's going on with AI?

All right, so let's see if, uh, let's give Joe a buzz. I'm sure he's in a professional studio with a real microphone.

[laughs] He is.

[laughs]

He's very well lit.

This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian, Stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's, uh, it's trying to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world, and I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions.

A lot of questions, but how often? 'Cause we do this podcast three times a week, and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do?

Three times a week, and I, I, I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe gonna be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess.

The Guardian is not some billionaire-owned platform. They're not afraid to say what they wanna say, brother.

Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in, in what, uh, journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at, at, [laughs] uh, Stateside.

Mm-hmm.

But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch on YouTube. It's three times a week, and, and who couldn't use more news? You know, especially, especially when it's, when it's not, you know, from here, let's say.

[laughs]

Give, give it a, give it a listen. Give it a listen. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by our best friends at BetterHelp. Jason, we're, we're deep into May, which is, uh, Mental Health Awareness Month, and this is just a reminder that whatever you're going through, you don't have to go through it alone. Life is a damn journey. Some days feel good and others feel overwhelming. Whatever's keeping you up at night, it's easy to feel like you have to figure it all out on your own. But the truth is, no one has all the answers. Well... And no journey should be alone. Having someone with you to listen, to understand, and to support you can really make all the difference.

I agree, Chris, and sometimes, you know, it, it's nice to be talking to somebody even if they're not even listening, even if you don't even get to be in the same room with them because what you're doing is you're admitting these things to yourself and that's the most, that's the most rewarding thing you can do sometimes. So you can have a great little therapy sesh with your perfect therapist at BetterHelp. Choosing between over 30,000 people so you can get the right one just for you. Over six million people globally are using it and, you know, have some breakthroughs. Go on that walk after your BetterHelp sesh, you know, whatever it might be. Get a nice little lunch all for yourself, maybe a non-alcoholic kombucha, and just think and be like, "Damn, I really am him." You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have somebody with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/howlong. That is betterH-E-L-P.com/howlong.

Thank you for joining us on How Long Gone.

Thanks for having me.

And I, I-

Thrilled to be here

... I just wanna say that this is the... Jason, a- and I'm sure you'll agree, this is the best we've ever had as far as professionals.

[laughs]

This gu- this guy's wearing a blazer. He's in a fully lit studio. He has a microphone. It looks like he has an IBM laptop, and that's how serious this is.

It is. It's a Lenovo, yeah. No, this is a, this is serious business. I didn't use to wear blazers, but it's Mom Dani's New York City, and I think that's a message. We all gotta start dressing up a little bit more.

Oh.

I think that's the, uh, that's the message I take from it.

Even, even on audio-based podcasts because you can, you can hear it.

Even on an audio-based podcast, that's right.

Our listeners can hear.

Yeah.

I was just looking at a, a tweet about Mom Dani's wife being the first person to ever make anti-police cartoons with a 24-hour, uh, police detail trailing her everywhere she goes, which I thought was a fun, that was a fun little observation.

What, what are your thoughts on that dichotomy, Joe? Uh, just to get things started.

[laughs] What a world. We, uh... Interesting times we live in. Great for the content business.

Mm-hmm.

It is great for the content business. It is great for the content business. But, but as a... Can you explain to me, I would like to... And I don't know if you're an expert on the rise of Lenovo, but it does seem like-

[laughs]

... the Lenovo machine has sort of re- replaced the IBM ThinkPad as sort of like-

Yeah

... the w- the working man's laptop. Do you have any insight on that?

Well, I don't think the... I, I mean, I think what happened was this is a Lenovo ThinkPad. I think Len- the, Lenovo bought IBM's-

Oh

... hardware business.

I'm sorry. I-

Yeah, that's what happened. So it's has the red button in the middle.

Tha- that's what I was... I was looking for the kill switch.

You got the IBM clit, baby.

IBM clit. We all know it as that.

[laughs]

The red button is in-

Famously is in the middle [laughs] of the keyboard.

Okay, so are you, are you using, are you using an IBM Windows-based machine-

Yeah

... because of a contractual obligation?

No. [laughs] No, I have no sponsorship with Lenovo, but, um, in my experience-

That's not a joke question. It's a... The likelihood of that being-

Look-

... real is over 50%.

If Lenovo wants to reach out and have me be an influencer, maybe that conversation could happen. But the Bloomberg Terminal, through which I do all my work, works best on a PC, and the best PCs are, uh, in my opinion, the best s- are ThinkPads, or at least the best laptops are. As such, that is why I'm using this one here.

Can you do, can you do us a favor and-

Yeah

... because I didn't know what the Bloomberg Terminal was until I moved to New York and started, you know, being told to hate-

Suck me money up, bitch

... to hate finance guys. But, um, I think a lot of our listeners, especially in flyover states, have never experienced a terminal of that magnitude.

Sure.

So could you-

Thanks to HBO's Industry, we all know what it is now, of course, but not everyone has-

That's right

... that network.

What... Explain to me what the Bloomberg Terminal is, how much, how much they cost, you know, what the w- ins and outs are of using one of those on a daily basis.

And why can't a, an Apple machine power it? I'd love to hear, Joe.

Hm.

Okay, let me take these a few at a time.

[laughs]

I don't know exactly why it is more optimized for PCs except that, you know, historically speaking, Wall Street and finance has used PCs, and that's the default-

Mm-hmm

... and so therefore-

'Cause they think Apple is gay? I get it.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Because, I mean, I can, I can, like, design a CGI, you know, Fast and the Furious trailer with my MacBook Pro, but I can't do, you know-

It's for creatives

... Apple stock is down 3%.

Apple is for creatives. Uh-

Yes, yes

... you know. Um, although there's plenty of creative people in finance. Uh, um, but then-

[laughs]

So what is the Bloomberg Terminal-

[laughs]

... which is, you know, it's the greatest piece of software in the world.

Sure. [laughs]

Um, in my opinion. It's how I w-

[laughs]

[laughs] It's how I work. Um, and it is essentially this-... piece of software that exists on your computer that to, has, I would say, essentially two main functions, which is one is an incredible access to financial data of all sorts, including various charting and analytical functions-

Oh, silver's up, gold is down-

Silver's up

... stuff like that

Silver's up, gold, yeah, exactly like that, or, you know, some bond that trades in Vietnam or whatever, that you can track that very easily too.

Mm-hmm.

And then there's a bunch of analytical tools on that, but charting, but also other more, uh, you know, the statistical properties of various market moves. And then the other big thing, which is very cool, is that there is a basically a social network that exists on Bloomberg, which is you can IB- you can... It has its own chat function. It's called IB, Instant Bloomberg, and anyone who has a Bloomberg Terminal can chat with anyone else who has one.

Oh.

And this is-

Uh-oh.

So this is how people in Washington, D.C. cheat on their wives. They use the good-

Exactly. That's-

Slide in through the Bloomy. What's your Bloomy?

Do you have... All right, is there a B- is there a Bloomy app where you can use the chat feature on the go?

Like, like Facebook Messenger, but for Bloomy.

There is a mobile app, yeah. So there is a, there is a, there is a mobile Bloomberg app, yes, and it inc- that app includes the chat feature.

This is, this is actually fascinating. Okay, so you guys have your AOL, basically. You have your own, you have your own chat room, and does that mean that, that you guys aren't using sort of Slack or, or Teams or any of that? Does it all-

I work entirely over IB, personally.

Wow.

You know, people still chat over like, you know, I still DM with people on Twitter or WhatsApp or whatever, but-

Yeah, yeah

... for work, like I am entirely, uh, I, I entirely operate via, via IB.

It reminds me of... It, it actually reminds me most of BlackBerry Messenger, which was, you know-

Yeah, that network. And the thing is too, so the other element, it's... So obviously there's the very nice fact that anyone who has a Bloomberg Terminal can IB with anyone else. But it also is like integrated into the trading workflow such that-

Oh

... you know, like, okay, you're my broker, and I'm looking for bonds, and then, you know, I like put a, put a quote in. I say like I'm looking for this, and then the quote may like auto-populate within the chat or so forth. So it's a chat f- environment that is particularly well-suited for people who have to communicate about things going on in financial markets.

Okay, now question. If I... Okay, I'm an independent, um, you know, financial expert, analyst-

Yeah

... trade- trader, et cetera. I have my house in Westchester. I have my office set up. I need a terminal. Where do I go to cop? How much does it cost?

You know what? You got... I- I think if you, uh, search bloomberg.net in your, uh, in your browser, you get a... There's probably a phone number to a salesperson, and uh, I, they, I do not think they, Bloomberg News would be thrilled with me, like-

So you're saying that I, you're saying that if I... Do you have to... I guess what I'm asking, though, is do you have to prove your bona fides to get one?

No, I don't think so. No, no, no, no.

Okay, got it.

I mean, I think if you pay, um, if you pay-

You pay, you pay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You pay. I mean, again, th- this please, uh, do not hold... You know. As far as I know, you know, if you, if you want a Bloomberg Terminal, and you want to, uh, buy one, or if you want to-

Mm-hmm. Subscribe

... I, at least, I don't know what the formal thing is. If you want to subscribe to the Bloomberg software terminal, I think you call up a salesperson, and they'll give, and uh, you'll find the price, and I can't know that.

I tell you what, if I was a certain, if I was a certain kind of single guy in New York with a nice enough apartment, I think I'd have a terminal in the corner-

Mm

... just so people see it.

Yeah, the termie in the corner gets 'em wet.

There is something really cool about having a terminal. I have, you know, 'cause I have-

I agree.

Okay, I just, I just searched online. Sorry for interrupting y'all. A single user, one terminal, annual subscription fee is 27 to $32,000 a year.

Yeah. That, that seems very reasonable for something of that-

What's the catch?

Uh, yeah. [laughs]

[laughs] Costs as much as a Kia Sephora.

I mean, I think that that, for something that specialized, though. I just, I've always been fascinated with those-

Yeah

... because it seems like-

Come over sometime.

I would love to. [laughs]

Yeah, I'll... Yeah. Come over sometime.

We'll have a LAN party.

I'll even like, I can show you all the cool things you can do with it.

You're like, "Here's a bunch of shit you don't understand. There's some games."

So that's, that's one of those things where, like we, we were talking about restaurants earlier, but like I've always talked about recently, like I hate where when the barrier of entry to something is just merely the price. Like anyone can get into any club-

Oh, yeah, yeah

... as long as you pay for it. This is one thing where the price feels about right, where like you have to care about this information enough and s- have $30,000 a year extra to do this, and you are deemed worthy of, of gaining access to this versus-

Cost of doing business.

Yeah, yeah.

That's right.

That's a barrier of entry I, I approve of.

I've always been fascinated with that, though, and I'm glad. This is honestly the first time anyone's given me some straight answers on it, so I appreciate that.

Yeah, no, I'm happy... I love, uh, I love, I love the terminal. I'm not just saying that. I love using the terminal.

[laughs]

I want everyone to love the terminal. I'm not just saying that.

Question-

I'm not paid to say that

... as, question though, if you're, if you're forced to use a, a regular machine, are you bumbling around? Like do you know how to navigate? Do you feel lost without the terminal? [laughs]

So, th- th- I mean-

How do you turn this thing on? [laughs]

You know, it used to be, it used to be that the terminal... So the terminal is really fundamentally a piece of software that works on a PC.

Sure.

It wasn't always the case. Um, there, and there is a dedicated keyboard that actually has some different keys, and it has, um-

Mm-hmm. Okay.

There's color coding involved.

But you can use it on any computer. It used to be, however, my understanding is, it used to be that the, um, terminal software was much more integrated into the hardware because if you think about the fact that like prior to the widespread availability of the internet-

Right

... being able to like communicate data from one computer to another was not a trivial thing. Um, but yeah, I hate ha- I hate being on a computer that doesn't have the Bloomberg Terminal software.

[laughs]

I wanna be able to, you know-

Mm-hmm

... do all of my charting functions and-

Your, your wings are clipped

... real talk. Yeah, that's right.

So you're, you're... All right. So one of your kids is having a meltdown at the Mellow Mushroom, and you're, you, you pull out the iPad to try to satiate them-

[laughs]

... and you're like, "Look, I can't fucking do this."

They gotta teach you how to use it.

"I don't know. You guys, you guys figure it out."

Yeah. Well, yeah, you're on, you're on your own. Go, uh, yeah.

[laughs]

You f-

Find some other app.

Yeah.

Okay, so since, since you spend a lot of time on the terminal, you are a master of the markets. Is there any-

That's right

... what, what is stopping you from becoming a billionaire? Uh, you know.

Yeah. It, it's a good question.

Great question.

I'm not a master of the market. You know, I, I, I... Look, people ask-

[laughs]

... various versions of this from time to time.

I just didn't know if, like, is there, like, any type of, you know, because this is your job-

Yeah

... is the journalistic integrity, I'm not allowed to, you know, whatever it might be?

No, it's... I mean, there are... Yes, there are certainly rules about what, from an journalistic integrity standpoint, you can trade a very, a ne-

But I mean, if, if Pelosi's allowed to do it, why can't your ass, is what I'm saying, you know what I mean?

Great question. Great question.

I mean, that is a great question. I mean, I think it's good that-

[laughs]

... journalists aren't allowed to... I think, I mean, first of all, it's good that journalists aren't allowed to trade for their own in- for the integrity of the news organization. It's also good that journalists aren't allowed to trade because that probably saves them a lot of money, 'cause most of them would do it terribly.

Sure.

I would say generally speaking, most people should thri- should desire to work at a place that constrains them fi- uh, from trading, because most people would do better just in the sort of set it and forget it portfolio.

Yeah.

Um, you know, just buy the index fund-

Mm-hmm

... maybe buy some treasuries, and then check in on a year.

Mm-hmm.

That's the most cliche financial advice in the world. It also happens to be pretty good, I think, for, like, 99.9%-

Yeah

... of people.

Depending on how many monitors you have in your living room?

Yeah. No, if you have eight monitors-

[laughs]

... you could beat the market, that's for sure.

[laughs]

But I only have space for two, and so therefore I'm glad that I can't-

Okay, so-

... that I don't trade

... so, so you are... Are you, are you technically not allowed to do, to, to play the markets?

There are pretty, uh, serious constraints. Yeah, I don't play the market. Yeah, yeah.

But, but is, is this enforced by the law or by your employer?

The SEC or by the employer?

Um, W- Bloomberg... I j- I don't know. I think these are things... I think most news organizations within New York City-

Mm-hmm

... will have their own set of rules. I don't, I, I don't think there's any laws per se. I think that's just a good way to destroy the reputation of your company. But look, there's, you know, like, we know that there-

Don't talk, don't talk about Barry Weiss like that.

That's fair.

But there's-

Don't talk about Barry Weiss like that.

[laughs]

There's news entities-

We'll, we'll get to that

... that are, like, built on this... A few of them launch ev- every few years, someone has this idea that we're gonna hire journalists to do investigative stories, and we're gonna trade on the subjects of their investigative reporting prior to the story coming out, and that-

Mm

... will be the business model of our newsroom. I don't know whether any of those have really been successful, but, like, look, you know, you could in theory have a hybrid sort of news org trading shop.

Mm.

And I'd say, like, that kind of exists. There are certainly newsletters on Substack and others that essentially have this, like, hybrid version of the business model where, like, someone is writing about the topic, but also-

Mm

... um, you know, trading or whatever.

Same thing with a lot of sports gambling as well. Like-

Yeah, that's right. That's right

... here's what's going on, blah, blah, blah.

So, like-

And if I were you, I'd do this bet, this bet, this bet, this bet.

Yeah, and here's what I'm doing. Yeah, so, like, the... You know, I don't think there's really any laws around this. It's more like, how much do you wanna have some self-respect for what you're publishing?

Okay. Ha- have people maybe with the little... Any, anyone slid into your Bloomberg DMs and said, "Hey, you know, I'll give you, I don't know, I'm gonna z- Zelle you 100, 100K-

It happened

... if you tell..." You know, "I got, I got 3 million. I wanna know where to invest it. I'll pay you 10% or whatever." Do you, do you get offers like that? Do you want offers like that?

No, I never have. You know, like, I, I d- uh, no. I, I never have.

I think unfortunately, no.

I would love to tell some story of this-

It's just dick pics mostly? [laughs]

I would say, I guess. I, you know, I was offered a life-changing fortune, and I didn't do it because I have such integrity.

What? What life-changing-

But actually-

[laughs]

Actually, funny about me, I was offered a life-changing amount of money and I said no because of the self-respect.

I mean, at a, at a certain point, can you retire? Can you put the jersey up in the rafters and just go start getting fucking big ass stacks of paper?

But it's not o- it's not obvious that... Like, this is the thing, which is that-

[laughs]

... people ask various versions of this question. They're like, "Oh, have you ever, like, thought about, um, you know, going to the other side? Like, being an investor or working at a hedge fund or a fund?" I was like, "No. Like, I'm a journalist. I talk about what happened yesterday. I don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow."

Okay.

And so, like, I don't think... And, and, and the other thing is I by and large have come to think that most reporters, journalists, whatever, do not have the right mindset for the actual job of-

Mm-hmm

... trading and investing. You know, we're, like, sort of trained to be cynical. And, like, you know, take some, like, trend over the last several years.

Mm-hmm.

AI, crypto, et cetera. Like, if you're cynical and savvy about this, you missed out on huge runs. So, like, by and large-

Mm

... like, you have to be a little bit-

It's a different kind of-

You have to... I, what I would say is, like, a lot of the, b- a lot of good investors have a certain, and I say this only in praise, like, a certain foolish optimism.

Yeah.

And you have to have that. And foolish optimism is not something I associate with a lot of people, like, in media, if I'm being honest.

No, I, no, I would agree. Uh, foolish-

Foolish, yeah. [laughs]

Foolish

... foolish if, but not the optimism part.

You're too skeptiana for it.

That's right, yeah.

You gotta have brass balls-

That's real

... and silver balls.

I also wanted to, the, the... I wanted to ask about this sort of... 'Cause I feel like you were around for the boom of all these startups and, you know, private equity-

Yeah, I was

... and all these investments. And I personally am, I think every idea is bad, and-

Yeah

... I don't-

[laughs]

And when one works-

Yeah, I know

... when, when, when one works-

This is our curse

... it's a cur- But I'm-

It's a curse

... when anyone's ever, when anyone's ever been like, "Oh, why don't you, uh, why don't you help me with this thing? I'll give you some equity." I'm like, "I don't want equity. This isn't gonna work. Like, are you out of your fucking mind? I want cash."

Yeah. And then every once in a while something works.

That's the problem.

The... We're, we're surrounded by people who, like, have actually m- made a ton of money 'cause they actually just said yes for once in their lives.

[laughs]

And you are just like, "Oh, that's never gonna w- This..." You know, we're all, you, you... We're the same. It's like, that's not gonna work. That... Yeah, yeah.

You know what? I'll take the stock. Fuck cash.

But I guess my, my, my question is, seeing so many of those, how many times have you thought to yourself, like, "This, this one's gonna work," and it do- Like, how often are you surprised, I guess, is my question, as someone who knows this stuff a little more intimately than, than a layman?

This probably Tesla was the last one for you, Jones?

I'm surprised almost all the time when anything-

[laughs]

... anything works, particularly in the media industry. Particularly in the media industry specifically.

So you're, so you're saying that Sema- Semaphore getting $40 million is a surprise to you?

I'm very impressedI'm very impressed. I'm very impressed-

I'm impressed too

... is how I put it.

Should it be more like Sema two instead of Sema four? Is that what you're saying, Chris?

But that's... No, I guess my whole thing with this is the, the, like the whole like valuation culture. As someone-

Yeah

... who doesn't work in numbers or understand it that well, I'm always flabbergasted by like, wait, so you're, you owe somebody $50 million technically, but you're worth $500 million based on some project- it's just all, it all feels fake. That's my pro- it all feels like a spreadsheet.

Yeah, if you think about... Like, so like imagine, let's just say, ad company gets a 50, it's, or a $40 million investment, right? Like in, in reality, you know, at some point the implication of that is that this is gonna be a company that in the future is making tons of cash-

Mm-hmm

... such that the person who made this investment actually withdraws 40 million in multiples of 40 million in profit back out of the company, and they ultimately pay back the investor.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, but what it, but what happens in re- but what happens most of the time is that the company gets a bigger valuation, and either, okay, maybe it gets bought out by another company and then the investors get paid back, or it goes public and then a bunch of public, uh, shareholders own it, and then the investor sells theirs. But still the fundamental aspect of all investment is this idea that this will be a profitable enterprise that will produce so much cash because revenues are higher than costs, and those profits will be distributed back to those investors.

The EBITDA is, is fucking lit, so-

Yeah

... that's why we're doing-

Lit EBITDA.

Yeah. Yeah. I think-

But it so, but I, so like wait, so like if you d- like if you think about an investment and you're like, "Oh, well, you know, here's a $200 million company. I could see it maybe worth 500 million in a few years if they do well." It's like, okay, yeah, I guess I could see that. If you say, "Here's a $200 million company, and I expect that in a few years they will be massively profitable such that cash will be returned to shareholders," like, no, that's not v- that's so hard to imagine, even though fundamentally it should kinda be the same thing.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. No, you're right. It's different. It is different, but it feels the same.

Yeah. But if you're just like, "Oh, you know what? The valuation will be higher. I'm not gonna worry too much about actually a profitable enterprise that will pay back the shareholders and then some." If you're just thinking, "Oh, the valuation will probably be higher in a few years," like okay, I can get my heads around that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll stick to that then. I'll stick to that then.

Yeah, just, just invest in the companies with rising... It's that easy.

Yeah.

Just invest in the ones where the valuation is gonna go up. [laughs]

Unfortunately, Joe, I'm not s- I'm not super liquid right now, so.

That's actually a good idea, Joe.

Yeah. [laughs]

I'm gonna start doing that.

Yeah, yeah.

That is financial advice. [laughs]

Okay, Joe, did you ever, did you get Bitcoin or Ethereum or anything like that back in the day or, or still currently?

This is the, uh, this is the, uh, this is the curse. I've been following it forever, you know? But it's like, no, I'm like the most boring, boring investor in the world. It's like-

So when you say forever, you had the opportunity to buy Bitcoin when it was-

We all did. We all, like it was just sitting there on Coinbase at like $10 a t-

[laughs]

Like it was just sitting right there.

[laughs]

Like this is the thing which is like making a lot of money is just clicking a few buttons on your phone.

[laughs]

But the problem is you don't know which button. It's like that joke that people have. It's like there's, you know, I've seen, there's like, "There's millions of dollars trapped in your phone right now, and the right sequence-

[laughs]

... of buttons can extract that millions." It's like I, someone el- it's like ev- someone else is using their time tapping on the phone sending a tweet.

Mm-hmm.

That's what I do, and someone else did those same thumb taps-

Same, brother

... and they made tens of millions of dollars on Bitcoin, but they're all just thumb taps on these.

But I guess why did-

They just, I didn't... It's just someone else tapped the right sequence.

Uh-huh.

Why do you think these kind of, these alternative currencies attract the worst people on earth? Like why do you think it's, why do you think it... Because it seems like a-

Yeah

... a pretty simple thing to be like-

Yeah

... "Oh, I'm gonna follow this. I'm gonna invest in it, and then-

Yeah

... hopefully it'll pay off." But it attracts a certain kind of person that only wants to buy super cars and live in Miami penthouses-

Sure

... and wear chrome hearts, and I wanna know why.

Yeah. Well, look, here's what I would say a- about that. Like I've, I've thought about various versions of this question a lot, but I gen- so it's like, okay, here is this novel instrument, a cryptocurrency that doesn't fit into some sort of traditional schema, and we can't obviously identify the cash flows or why it's gonna exist, et cetera, right? Okay. So the way I tend to think about a lot of these things is that there is some correlation between sort of normal beliefs and normal personality, right?

Right.

And part of having a normal personality, part of just fitting into the world, part of being like a sort of functioning adult in society is more or less like, "Yeah, you know what? I'm mostly gonna agree with other people on things. Maybe I'll pick my spots where I have a little bit of a distinct opinion or something, but by and large I'm gonna smile and shake people's hands like yeah, that makes sense," et cetera. And then there are some people who do not have that gene. They do not have that thing in their brain that tells them behave normally in society, but because they don't have that sort of like be a normal person gene, they, I do think some of them are more open to both extremely good and extremely bad ideas that other people don't believe in. I mean, I see it too in economics where it's like various schools of heterodox economics, or you probably like see them like, you know, various like sort of, yeah, extremists of like unusual... Like they tend to be weird. Like there's nothing in it-

Right. [laughs]

Like you like think of like some like, oh, some, I don't know, whatever, some like Marxist or some like, someone who believes in Aust- Austrian economics or something like that. There's no fundamental reason why sort of having a non-mainstream view of economics will cause those people to be just like a little different, except that there's this, they don't have that filter that sort of-

Mm-hmm

... compels them to just nod and agree with everyone else on things. And so I do think that like people who are just sort of different than you and I are both, yeah, more open to both the good and the bad ideas.

I, I am built different than you guys. I agree.

I wish I was built like Jake Paul, and I'm not, and that's-

Right. Right

... kind of the, that's what I think about every day.

For better or worse. For better or worse.

Um, Joe, speaking of, speaking of Twitter, do people in your circles give you shit for still being on it?

There's a few. I don't get that much hate for it. Um-

Okay

Yeah, the funny thing is, so like I have like a bl- I have a Blue Sky account that I post every once in a while.

That is funny. [laughs]

And I'm only r- And the, the... Yeah, I know. But the thing is, is like every time I post there, like I'll post an episode or something, every time I post there, people are like, "What the hell are you still doing on Twitter?" So I was like, "Well, you know what? I don't really wanna post here [laughs] anymore 'cause I'm just reminded of the fact that you're mad at me for being on Twitter."

Mm-hmm.

I've heard that, I've heard that, I've heard that the Blue Sky community isn't quite as friendly as they were once billed.

[laughs]

Well, the, yeah. Well, the thing is it's like they're the only ones-

That's tea

... who remind me of how bad I am for still being on Twitter.

I see what you're saying. So you're saying you go-

Mm-hmm

... through your daily life and it's fine.

Yeah.

But then you go on Blue Sky and-

Yeah. So then I make the effort to do something else, and that's the only time I'm r- reminded that I'm a bad person-

Mm-hmm

... for still posting on Twitter. So it's like, you know what? I'd rather just not be reminded of that, and so then I'm not there.

I see. I didn't need-

And it's a little bit perverse

... I didn't need a reason not to use Blue Sky, but I'll add that to, I'll add that to the pile.

Yeah. Yeah.

I'll add that to the pile.

They're the only ones who will tell you you're bad, so it's like, all right, I just don't want to see.

You gotta avoid that toxic space, Joe.

But I imagine you were on Twitter early days.

Early days.

Much like Ja- Jason and I were.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, it's, it's tough.

From when it was good, yeah. [electronic tone]

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He knows how to charge my copay.

Exactly.

That's about it.

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There was a ti- for me personally, there was a lot, for several years in the 2010s, there was, there were two things, which is there really was a pretty rich community of people that really knew ball, like really knew finance, really knew markets, really knew economics, who were posting a lot of, uh... They were posting a lot of alpha on there, like genuinely novel things, people who really had a lot of deep subject matter expertise, and they were not the type of people that the journalists at newspapers, like, were talking to. So there were, like, voices that were emerging that I wouldn't have found elsewhere of, like, people who really knew their stuff, et cetera. And I think a lot of that really is gone, and I loved that. I met so many people who became friends or colleagues or people we've had on the podcast-

Yeah

... through, like, that. People who have, like... And then I think, like, uh, unfortunately, quite a few of them left because they're like, "Wow," like, there's just some slop of various forms. I still am entertained. I still d- find it useful to sort of where is the zeitgeist, so to speak.

You still tell Grok to put people in bikinis.

[laughs]

It's still fun.

Someone did that to me the other day.

Oh, really?

Um, yeah.

Really? What color did they choose for you?

It was a, it was a black bikini.

[laughs] I love the way you said that. I don't know why exactly. [laughs]

I haven't really, I haven't explored Grok.

Like, but, like, I think, like, but for all those people that were like, oh, I'm like a, you know, they're a serious person who's, like, in central banking or something, it's like, I just think, like, eventually people are like, "I kinda had enough of this." Like, most sane people-

Mm-hmm

... they're like, "The- let's be real," you know? "I've kinda had enough."

I mean, I, I think it be- like, when we were... Speaking of industry, I was watching the, the recent episode and, and when they were, the, the two people that were running the company and who were at odds and, and the, the foreign bank investor who's now CFO is like, "This is a serious company. He's not a serious person." And I think-You know, the Twitter divide has, has been divided from serious people and not serious people

Yeah, it kind of feels like it

Do you feel like you're a serious person, if you had to sway one way or another?

I think I, yeah, I think I'm the last... I mean, I'm, I m- I think I'm a serious person.

[laughs]

I also think I'm like the last nor-

I'm the last serious motherfucker on Twitter. Suck my dick. Hell yeah.

Yeah, and I'm also, like, pretty normal. Like, I ha- I just like, I have very normal opinions on just about everything. I have, like, very normal tastes.

[laughs]

No, I'm just like a really normal guy.

How do you feel about this?

And like-

Normal?

Yeah, I'm just normal.

[laughs]

It's like, when did... And so I'm always, like, talking to my wife. It's like, God, why can't people just be normal like you and I are anymore? Just have, like, normal political opinions-

[laughs]

... normal, normal tastes, et cetera. But like, there's fewer and fewer of them.

Okay, normie rights matters, what the wife and-

But I somehow, somehow I've spent the last... Like, what I was gonna say is, somehow I've spent the last 15 or 16 years on this one app-

Mm

... in which I have proceeded to view, uh, proceeded, like, one by one, so many people I know have, like, lost their minds in some way, or, like, taken on some crazy persona.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm like, oh, I'm like a survivor. Like, I just like, I'm the same guy I was, like, in 20... I mean, I'm older now, but.

Yeah.

I like that. You're, you're cra- you're crawling out of your foxhole.

I didn't lose my mind, and I don't really know how that is, but I might... Maybe I'm better than them.

I don't think I lost m-

No, I don't think you have either

... I don't, I don't think I-

'Cause we're built different

... I'm built different

'Cause you're built different. 'Cause you have a good, you have a North Star.

That's right.

You have good discipline. You're not an idiot, but you're also not a, not a dork ass, and there's few of us-

I'm gonna put that in my bio

... nowadays, you know?

Not a dork ass. [laughs]

I think, yeah, not a dork ass.

I'll reword it.

Okay.

I didn't love it, but it was good. It got across the line.

I think that also there's just some people that are more affected by social media in every single way.

Yeah.

As far as, like, it shape, it's shaping your beliefs and changing your personality.

Oh, completely, yeah.

And I think you either kinda are that person or you're not, and that allows you to survive-

At night-

... differently

... you know, I think one thing that helps, honestly, is I have two kids. And at night before I go to bed, I'll, like, scroll Twitter, and then I'm like, "Oh, the world is coming to an end. This is terrible." Like, society is completely cooked. And then the next morning it's like, oh, I gotta take my son to school and everything. Like, that is a, that walk to school is extremely normal. It's probably the same way people have been walking to school for 100 years.

It's normal for, it's normal for you, but your son's like, "Why is my dad on his phone the whole time-

[laughs]

... while he's walking?" And it's just a different... You know, he's a little disappointed, but.

Daddy has to reply to the haters now.

That k- that's-

[laughs]

[laughs]

You know, you like e- uh, unironically, you've, like, cut something deep there. [laughs]

"Daddy's gotta reply to his haters now" is really funny. [laughs] Like, "Son, hold on one second. Hold on a s- sweetheart, just hold on one second."

[laughs]

The scary thing is that's not a joke. [laughs] I don't wanna talk about that.

[laughs]

I know. Can I... I'm in this picture.

Okay, okay.

I'm in-

We struck a nerve

... I don't wanna talk about this, this aspect of my life.

This reminds me of, um-

I don't, I, I don't like where this conversation is going

... s- speaking of when Twitter was good, it reminds me of a tweet I just pulled up from rapper Tyler, the Creator from 2012, so 14 years ago.

Yeah.

"Ha ha ha, how the fuck is cyberbullying real? Ha ha ha. Just walk away from the screen. Close your eyes. Ha ha ha."

Yeah.

[laughs]

I mean, there's something to that.

He said the N word a few times, and I chose not to, but.

There's something to that-

You know

... where it's like I close, I turn off the screen, and my life actually looks pretty normal, and society does not feel cooked when I'm, like, walking around New York City taking my son to school.

Yeah.

Or take him to the park. Last night we, like, played tennis against the handball wall in the park, and it's like that felt very normal.

That's nice.

We could've done that 20 years ago.

If you didn't have kids, you could've been listening to a podcast while you did that. Just something to think about.

Well, there's the thing, and then that would contribute to the cooking of my mind.

[laughs]

So I have to have this, like, outlet of normality.

Yeah, but you could, you don't have to listen to doom and glooms. You don't have to listen to Tim Dillon talking about how, you know, society is collapsing. We're in a... You c- you could listen to How Long Gone, where we just-

That's right. That's right

... try to figure out what Emma Stone had done to her face this year, you know?

Yeah, import- important stuff.

[laughs]

But it seems like you have a pretty healthy... I, I feel like you have a pretty healthy, um, media intake. I would assume it's, it's-

Yeah

... it's quite robust, but it doesn't seem like you're going down the dark alleys of-

No

... of Reddit or whatever.

No, I'm like, I never go down, like, crazy rabbit holes or like, oh, shoot, it's 3:00 in the morning and I've spent the last five hours, like, watching, like, manosphere videos about protein or something like that.

Mm-hmm.

No, like, I like to be-

You haven't started hitting your face with a hammer just quite yet.

No, I never.

[laughs]

I haven't done, I'm not engaged in any looks maxing currently-

[laughs]

... or anything like that.

Okay. Well, I, I wonder, 'cause we're all around the same age. You're two days older than me, actually. I just checked it.

Really?

We're all Virgo podcasters.

Mm.

Amazing.

Cis white men. But anyway, I was, I was thinking, um... Wait, wait, I just lost my train of thought.

It's okay. You're, you're distracted, I understand. We have a, we, we have a guy of this magnitude, the pressure's on. That's the problem when you-

[laughs]

[laughs] As a r- you guys are just so starstruck by talking to a, a-

It, we honestly, honestly-

... a Bloomberg podcast host

... honestly, Joe, when you link up, you know this. When you, when you record a podcast with a fellow podcaster-

Yeah

... of, of, of a certain stature, the work is sort of not on you. You know what I mean? It's like-

Yeah, yeah

... y- we could, Jason and I could say three words for the next hour, and you're gonna take it from there, and we're gonna be all fine.

We're both, we... I wanna impress you guys. You wanna impress... You know, it's like a, it's, it-

You're chocolate. We're milk. Put us together, it's a nice blend. On our own, it's great.

Yeah. No, no, this is... I, I say this to... Like, I don't like... It's not, we do not have other podcasters on that often, but we do from time to time, and I alw- it's exactly what you said. It's like, oh, it's so easy to talk to them. They just, like, know how to do it. It's so-

Mm-hmm

... they know the rhythms. They don't give a seven-minute answer or something like that, and, uh, yeah.

But you've been doing this, you've been doing this for a l- I mean-

10 years

... long time.

Yeah.

Like, more than a decade, correct?

That's right. Um, yeah, November or October of last year we did 10-year anniversary, or it was our 10-year birthday, whatever.

What do you, what do you think has, what do you think has ch- uh, I mean, obviously besides an influx of people, like, what do you think has changed most in that, on, in that side of the business? Like, as far as someone who's been doing it twice a week for 10 years, like, what is the biggest change you've seen?

You know, like, at the beginning-There was no business, right?

Yeah.

I mean, it's interesting. Th- there was no podcast business. I, I've said this publicly, you know, Bloomberg, when we started Odd Lots, there was no podcast team that existed at the time. We went to the head of radio, and the head of radio was like, "Okay, you can have 30 minutes of radio studio time to record your podcast, and I'll give you some help to edit it." But there was no podcast business or podcast team, and that was very fortuitous to us because no one listened to the podcast for the first four or five years. Had there been a podcast team or a business, like, maybe six months or a year in, they're like, "No one listens to this."

Like, "What are we doing?"

Mm-hmm.

"We're pulling the..." Yeah, they're pulling the plug. So the biggest change is that people recognize that there is such a thing called the podcast business, and then that creates all these, you know, different dynamics where it's like, it's probably harder within the context of any large media organization or any organization at all to just let something run forever because it's fun to do because it's like, you know, where's the math? And so I do think, like, yeah, it's the fact that it's become a business that's probably changed it. But, you know, we've gotten way better about building intuitions of what our listeners like, and we're better interviewers, and various things like that. Um, we're just better at the job than we were.

Yeah, of course.

I mean, I can't go... I can't go back and listen to those... It's painfully cringe to go back and listen to our 2015 episodes.

I, I can't listen, I can't listen to what we did last week, so I feel you.

[laughs] No, I can't do, I can't actually do that either.

[laughs]

It's very... I, I find it very difficult to listen to myself.

Do people come up to you in the street and stuff? Is it like a... How, how often do you get recognized?

Yeah.

And not just at, like, a financial conference. I'm saying-

Yeah, what, what neighborhood do you have to avoid? [laughs]

You, you can't go to FiDi.

No, it's, it's, I-

You can't go to FiDi without bodyguards.

It's, you know what? It's honestly, it's, it's semi-regular. I don't know. Um, it's happens with some regularity. My daughter hates it. I'm still very flattered by it.

Yeah, it's, it's awesome. I mean, it's-

Um, I, like, I'm, I've... Every time, it's like I, I am genuinely, genuinely so thankful that anyone would take their time and listen to a podcast, and that's what I do professionally. So I actually love, like, not just, like, the flattery of, like, someone, like, um, recogni- being recognized, but I wanna talk to the person. I wanna, like, ask them questions 'cause I wanna know what they do and why they heard it.

I like that. They're like br-

So, like, I love chatting

... they're like, "Bro, I just wanted to say I like the podcast," like, "Bye."

Yeah, that's right. [laughs] Like, I-

Tell me why you love me, please, in front of my daughter.

[laughs]

Yeah. Like, "Leave me alone, bro. I got kids and shit."

Okay, well, uh, speaking of the podcast business model, obviously we have Patreon. We have subscriptions.

Yeah.

We have access to the Discord where you can go and chat with Joe. There's advertising that you do. Um, but w- another thing that Chris and I do is brand deals, things like that. You do live events-

Yeah

... and things like that, but-

We do live events, yeah

... are you allowed to do brand deals? Like, are you allowed to be an influencer, or does that cross the line, too?

I... No. I mean, no.

And what's the difference between you doing an ad read on a podcast versus you doing an ad post on Instagram?

Well, we don't do many ad reads, but the o- um, the... You know, it's like it goes through... You know, we, I am a, I am a salaried, I am a c- employee of Bloomberg, you know? And, like-

[laughs]

... it's actually, you know-

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay

... there's actually an important thing, which is I am very happy that I do not have to make these sort of decisions about brand stuff. And the, the, the example that always comes to mind, I guess it was 2022. Oh yeah, it was, so it was early 2022, and we got an email from, you know, someone at FTX. And they're like, "Oh, we'd love to have you at our event in The Bahamas, and we'd pay you to come down and, like, stay at a hotel and all of this stuff, and, like, do whatever." And you could imagine, like, um, you know, I just, I was like, "We don't do that. We don't, we're never gonna, like, accept payment to, like, appear somewhere. We're never gonna accept payment at hotels." If you're an independent business, and, like, part of your model was, like, appearing at events-

Mm

... you imagine, "Well, should we say yes to this?" Like, you know, people do speaking fees, et cetera. I am very glad that I was, like, not on stage as a paid guest of Sam Bankman-Fried in spring of 2022 because that would've looked ter- I d- but, you know, I didn't even think about that.

Sure. Sure, that could reflect badly.

I, I would never s- you c- it would be... I would never consider, like, trying to make that work then. I think there are good reasons to have, from a sort of, especially from, like, if you're in the news business, to have pretty good, robust rules so that you're not even, like, thinking about these things, like who you want to be associated with.

Mm-hmm.

It just doesn't come up, and, like, and I'm, I'm very glad.

No, I think that's, I think that's freeing in a lot of ways.

Yeah, it's very freeing.

I mean, I think we-

I just, like, don't wanna think about, like, having to, like... I don't wanna make the decision.

Don't even drive past the Pinkberry, and, and you won't ever feel tempted.

[laughs]

Okay, well-

Yeah, it's fine

... I, I n- you, I don't want you to say, you know, feel uncomfortable saying anything you don't wanna say publicly. You s- you said you are a s- a happy, salaried employee, but does the success of the podcast alter that at all? Are there commissions based on performance, or regardless of how well the show performs, do you make the same amount of salary?

I'm gonna... What I will just s- I'm gonna avoid [laughs] salary talk. Well, look, I, here's the, what I, what I can say, like, unironically and, uh, just completely sincerely, this is not, this is not fake in any way, is that, like, Bloomberg is, like, such a natural fit for Odd Lots because the main thing is, like, we do wanna reach a professional audience. Bloomberg is core to the professional audience. Like, the sort of, like-

Mm-hmm

... we do wanna have conversations that involve, like, let's d- seriously dive into these things. So it's like-

Also, I would like to say Bloomberg is a blue chip brand, that it's, it's not like-

It's a great... Yeah

... it's not like a-

Oh, yeah

... upstart podcast network.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like there's, there's a level of respect inbuilt in.

It's a, there's a, yeah, there's a level of respect, a network, and we have offices literally all around the world.

It's no Big Money Playas brought to you by Will Ferrell.

[laughs]

Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This isn't Dear Media. This is-

So, like, without getting too much into business specifics of my life, like, it is a great fit. It's, like, the best home that I could imagine.

Okay. All right. Say less, Queen.

No, I think it-

Say less

... I just, w- I think it's inter- I think these situations are interesting because it's happening more and more-

Yeah, yeah, for sure

... where th- these media, these media companies-

I look at my bank account, and I say, "This is a great fit."

[laughs]

I love it. [laughs]

When the media, when the media companies invest in these podcasts, and the podcasts sort of-Get big enough to-

Yeah

... operate on their own.

I think-

Mm-hmm

... yeah, I th- I, and I think that, like, you know, you see this happening, which is every legacy media organization of various sorts wants to, like, "Well, how can we, like, have our, like, Substackers in staff," right? Like, they're ch- all trying-

Mm-hmm

... to figure this out. How can we have our capital-

Mm-hmm

... T talent, and they'll be the brand, and we'll be the platform for them?

Like CBS with Bari Weiss.

And I think it's really hard for most of them to figure it out. Like, I think it's, like, really tricky, and I think there are various, like, reasons that it's, like, really much harder said than done. Because intuitively you think, like, "Okay, you know, X newspaper..." Like, I think the New York Times has figured it out better than most, but I think it is really hard for an organization to, like, find that line where the, quote, "talent"-

Well-

... which I hate that word, but we all know what it means

[laughs]

... the, quote, "talent" has their brand, but also they're, like, sharing, they're creating some enterprise value along with the umbrella brand.

No, I mean, I think Popcast is a good example of that, and I think that's one of the better, like, New York, speaking of New York Times. But I do think-

Yeah.

Mm-hmm

... the other option is sort of like you wanna get into these spaces that are, are somewhat uncharted territory for you as a media company. A- if you want some of these bigger names-

Yeah

... they're making too much money to f- to come work anywhere. Like-

Yeah

... why would, why would they do that? Like-

Why would, why would I have my show on Netflix when I can just do it on YouTube?

I mean, the math just, you know, there's all kinds of screwy media math. I mean, there's the fact that, like, you know, people will stop subscribing to newspapers, and then end up paying, like, five times as much as what they were spending on newspapers for Substack subscriptions.

Yeah.

You know, there's, like, unbundling, which has, like, caused everyone's media consumption budget to go up. But then for some reason, like, they would not then, like, pay for The New York Times even if it included, like, five new- it's, there's just, like-

Like, no, it makes no... That, that shit-

It make, yeah

... is crazy to me. Like, that shit happens.

Wordle is the, is the main thing that tips people over if they're gonna subscribe or not on that.

Like, spending $100 a month or whatever on Substack, and then not subscribing to a single newspaper or, like, a magazi- like, New Yorker-

Yeah

... or Harper, Harper's or whatever.

But that seems-

It's very-

Yeah

... very common. Yeah, yeah. That's become, like, very common, but it's a strange, it's a strange thing where for some reason people will just click that credit card button for a Substack, but y- and not for, like, a publication that has a, could have 10 newsletter writers-

I, yeah, I think-

Mm-hmm

... that are great.

Well, I mean, a newspaper is really just a collection of, of newsletters, if nothing else. I mean, really. When you think about it.

Oof.

When you think about it.

Damn.

I don't wanna, you know.

Edible is kicking in now. Woo. [laughs]

But I, I ju- I find that to be so fascinating because I, I don't think, I still don't think there's anything more... I, I don't know, the feeling of, like, picking your newspaper up o- o- from the, you know, whatever-

Yeah

... from the front desk or the front yard.

Yeah.

It ain't the same as opening fucking 15 newsletters and sifting through to see if there's anything-

That's right

... good you wanna read. It's, it's just a different-

Yeah.

I think, but-

It's totally different, yeah

... but I think that goes back to the conversation we have all the time about gatekeepers and sort of, like, you know, somebody organizing these things and giving it a reason to exist under one umbrella. And how-

Yeah

... and how Substack, you're right, it's like I have to get 15 of these to find the two or three that I like.

And everyone has ha- everyone has had this idea of, like, some sort of federation of su- like, right? Like, a, you've seen this like, oh, like, why don't we brand and we'll be-

Yeah.

I d- I don't know. It doesn't seem to work. I don't... It, it, not as far as I know.

It's never gon- no, it's never gonna work. It's never gonna work. It's also, like, this is, and this is something I think Odd Lots serves a, a, the, a similar purpose, but I think the, the Substack newsletters that s- succeed, uh, aren't entertainment based. They're sort of like you're getting something.

Yeah.

It's service. Like, you're getting-

Yeah, I think you're correct

... you're learning something, you're getting something. It's leading you to buy something you want. It's giving information you don't have otherwise.

Yeah.

Whereas, like, we're in the enter- Jason and I are in the entertainment business. Like, we do this 'cause it's fun-

Yeah

... and we want people to have fun, and laugh, and enjoy it. And other, other, you know, people, the most listened to podcasts beyond, like, a Joe Rogan or Call Her Daddy are these, like, you know, 20-minute news, The Daily type shows or The Globalist or whatever-

Mm-hmm

... that are, I mean, it's like watching paint dry.

But people, people still luckily feel the need to be informed.

I g- I think the variety is fun, and sometimes you win, and sometimes you, sometimes you lose, and that's fine. Because even for us, even when it's painful for us, it's funny for somebody.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

A bad, a bad podcast can be good if you want to walk towards the darkness. You know what I mean?

But what is your-

That's right

... what is your attitude towards entertainment? Like, do you feel like you're providing a service? Do you feel like you're providing entertainment?

Yeah.

Do you want it to be a little bit of both?

I want it to be a little bit of both. I mean, I do think it's really important, I wanna genuinely learn something, and I want someone to have, like, oh, I'm gonna dedicate 45 minutes to an hour of listening to this podcast and come away having, knowing something more about the world. I think that's like... But, you know, I also think, like, it's gotta be fun. It's gotta be funny to some extent. It's gotta be interesting. It's gotta be lively.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

What, um, what, uh, what podcasts do you listen to for entertainment, not for educational purposes?

I don't listen to podcasts really. [laughs] Um, I guess what, what sources of media-

Spoken like a true pro.

[laughs]

Spoken like a true pro.

You, you know, the thing is, as I've, I've said before, I'm in a newsroom all day. All I do is talk, talk, and people are talking to me. I'm a r- you know, I play music. I'm in a ba- I'm in a country music band. When I have a chance to put on headphones, which is not that often, 'cause I'm, like, either around my kids or in the newsroom all day, I wanna listen to music instead.

Hold the, hold the fuck on. Hold the fuck on. Let's get into your country bonafides. What are we talking about here? You guys sound like Sun Volt? Like, what's the vibe?

I listen to a, I mean, uh, I listen to a range of stuff, from, uh, Hank Williams Jr.-

Okay

... George Strait-

Okay

... Willie Nelson-

Merle

... Merle Haggard. And then, you know, I like a lot of the com- I love Hardy, I love, I like Morgan Wallen.

Mm-hmm.

I like Ernest. I've been listening to the new Zach Bryan album, which is actually extremely good.

Okay.

Someone, someone described the, the new Zach Bryan album, and I, this is the best, it sounds exactly like every other Zach Bryan album-

That was me

... so it's good. Oh, that was you. [laughs]

That was, that's my tweet. That's my tweet.

[laughs] That's so funny.

It's like every song, every Zach Bryan song sounds exactly like every other Zach Bryan song, but it's a great song.

Oh, yeah. No, you're right though.

So it's great.

You're right.

This food tastes like a smash burger with fries.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But it's great.

I'll take it.

I didn't know you were, I didn't know you were... Are you from the South? What is your, what, what-

I went to college in Texas.

Okay.

And, uh, my wife's-

Is that when you discovered-

... from Mississippi.

Okay. So that's when you discovered the twang?

You were in Austin though, right?

Yeah, I went to, yeah, Austin, so you can-

It wasn't no Landman.

It was not Landman-

No

... which I love.

You went down to tech. [laughs]

[laughs]

I love... But, um, but I think it was... So I, uh, I was living in Vermont when I was in high school, but I felt drawn to the South. Like, I felt like, and I w- I felt like I, it was, like, I was a, you know, I'm a, I was born, I'm a Jewish guy from Detroit who was living in the Northeast, but I felt, like, this pull of the South and to, like, play country music and stuff, and that's when I sorta made that happen.

Hey.

Yeah.

Welcome home, brother.

Yeah, thank you. [laughs]

As a, as a-

Yeah

... as a Southern, Southern man, know Neil Young myself.

[laughs]

I, I find it to be, it's funny to me when, 'cause I think it's more accepted now that that is also, like-

Yeah

... Morgan, you know, this is, like, popular music in some way, whereas before-

It is, yeah, yeah

... it was, it was very much-

Popular racist music.

I play guitar, and I play, I have a, um-Yeah, I have a G&L ASAT, which is kind of like their equivalent of a Telecaster, which is the classic country guitar.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm in a band.

Uh-huh.

And go, listeners, go check out Light Sweet Crude. We're on Spotify.

[laughs]

Okay, so you're in a band.

Yeah.

W- who, who is in the band with you?

Uh, there's a few of us. The cast sort of rotates, but there's a core... There's, there's two other guys that have been there from the very beginning. My friend Paul Williams, he has a think tank here in New York City dedicated to housing. [laughs]

[laughs]

Also a great songwriter, I know.

[sings] I got a housing think tank. [sings]

You know, for sure.

[laughs]

And then, uh, our bassist is an economics professor at, uh, John Jay University.

[laughs]

I know.

This is awesome.

And our original drummer is-

This is awesome.

It's really fun. But w- but, you know, our, our songs aren't jokes. So people think we're gonna like, oh, we're gonna like sing songs about the Fed and stuff like that. And they-

Does it look like On The Office when all the guys play band, like, music in the warehouse?

[laughs]

It's, uh, we play in our bassist's basement these days.

And everyone's wearing a gray suit?

But we, like, try to write serious songs, and they're fun.

I, I like the... No, I think this is a g- a great outlet. And I also-

Yeah

... I love... H- I just feel like we, Jason and I associate with so many people who make music professionally-

That's cool

... that I, at this point, I'd say I rarely come across people who do it just for the love of the game. Like, really, I mean, the, like, honestly, I really-

You know what happened? So I'll tell the-

Mm-hmm

... uh, the reason it is. So I, several years ago, I had a birthday party and, um, I was, I put on a country music playlist. And, um, a friend of mine who hates country was like, "I'm gonna drink till I like country." And I, like, turned to my wife, I was like-

[laughs]

... "That's a great title of a song."

[laughs]

Like, I'm gonna drink... We're gonna, we're gonna... So I wrote this song, We're Gonna Drink Till You Like Country, and I recorded it into my iPhone. I, like, wrote it in a weekend.

Mm-hmm.

I recorded it into my iPhone. I uploaded it to SoundCloud, and then I posted it, I tweeted it, and I said, "If anyone's in Nashville and likes the song, like, sell it to an artist." And someone from Nashville reached out. They're like, "This is actually a very good song. I think I could sell this." And he was from a very serious, like... He's like, "This is actually, you wrote a really good song here."

Mm-hmm.

He got two singers in Nashville to record demo versions of it.

[laughs] Man.

And then a, a label put a hold on the song, but then none of their artists bit, so it didn't end up selling. But the la- but I did have the experience of a record label putting a hold. And then I had the bug. I was like, "Oh, I was-

Sure

... so close to getting a song published, or a song recorded by a recording artist."

You started walking around the house like Sam Smith.

[laughs]

You got all the plaques behind you.

Yeah. So I was like, I-

What's for breakfast, man? I gotta get back in the studio.

And then I was so, like, I could taste it.

[laughs]

And so then I was like, all right, I gotta start playing it. That's when after that, 'cause I had come so close to actually selling a song in Nashville, that I was like, all right, le- at least gotta scratch that itch and start playing a bit more.

Dude, I lo- that's a great story.

Yeah.

That's, that's, I mean, what m- what more push do you need than that? That's the greatest push-

Yeah, I know

... I've ever heard, to be honest.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Maybe we can change it. Since you already love country music, you don't need to drink to the point where you love it, so.

That's right. I don't need to, but some people do.

Drink till I love hyperpop may be something you could get into.

Yeah. We, uh, we-

[laughs]

I don't know. Just switch it up.

I try to sell it. I try to write, I write one from various genres-

Yeah

... and just sort of, like, market them around-

Every genre gets one. Every genre

... and each, uh, to each niche.

Every genre gets one.

Yeah.

That's a good o- okay, so what... Okay, so in your free time, you're making music. You're, you're watching-

Yeah

... some television or whatever.

Yeah.

But for the mo- for the most part-

Doing anything but listening to a podcast.

That's right.

Yeah.

That's basically accurate.

That's cool. I mean, Jason's different than me. I listen to one podcast, basically. Uh, and Jason listens to all of them, uh, to sort of understand the landscape.

Yeah, it kind of, uh, well, that, that actually reminds me of the question that I forgot to ask you. You mentioned paying attention to lots of news sources.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

But you, you in your position, are you the type of guy, this is something that I hope to get into later on in life, um, even though we're the same age, but, like, not just going to one news source, but-

Yeah

... actively going, "I'm gonna do Fox News, Al Jazeera, Newsmax, Truth Social, Drudge Report," you know. Are you getting the full tapestry of the news, or are you just sticking to one?

I'm not just sticking to one. I am certainly not getting the, quote, "full tapestry." I am not, you know, like, "Oh, I gotta check that one."

The tapestry, I would say the tapestry's too large these days.

I mean, I should, right? Like, I should know, like, what they're talking about on Newsmax probably more than I do. That would prob- I would probably be... I should know.

Right.

I don't. I'm not, uh, um, you know, like, my inbox is a very good source of news, 'cause the ones I re-

Are, are you a big, are you a big newsletter subscriber, speaking of?

I, I actually subscribe to a fair number of newsletters. I'm that person who has a consumption budget that doesn't really make any sense.

[laughs]

Mm-hmm.

That's why I can speak to this.

I am that bitch.

Um-

Okay

... so I have various newsletters.

Well, you can subscribe on Substack without giving them money, and that's the trick, guys.

That's true, and I, uh-

That's how I do it.

Um, I don't know anything about that.

Zero.

Goose eggs.

Um, and, uh-

[laughs]

Is that real?

Can't get a dollar out of me.

And then, you know, like, the Bloomberg Terminal, which again, so the other thing on the Bloomberg Terminal is there's all these newsletters on that.

Mm-hmm.

So I, like, r- you know, like, all the Wall Street Journal, all the New York Times, all these articles are actually available on the, the terminal. So I, like, read a lot of news just on the terminal. The top page on the terminal is sort of like our front page of the news, is, like, a good, like, mostly Bloomberg stories, but curated a little bit. So I read that a lot. I read a lot of, like, it's not really news per se, but a l- I ki- I, I kind of think it is, which is, you know, the analysts on Wall Street send out research memos on whatever is the event of the day and whatever, and I read a lot of that, which isn't news per se, but it's close enough to it-

I mean, it's news to you

... that I could... Yeah, it's news to me, and it sort of helps me understand. So I read a lot of, like, sell side research and stuff like that.

So, so you're telling me that these analysts, and they're doing this for free? They're doing this for the love of the game?

No, so the way, like, the business works is that, like, let's, you have, like, a brokerage-

Yeah

... shop. Let's take a Morgan Stanley or something like that, and then there will be a guy at Morgan Stanley who writes about autos.

Mm-hmm.

And he'll regularly write reports about the state of the auto industry and stuff like that, and the idea is these reports go to people who trade regularly with Morgan Stanley.

I see.

And so it is sort of this service of the banks. It's not just for the love of the game, but it, people will trade with Morgan Stanley-

For their clients to be informed

... and then they can talk to the guy, right? So there's like, "I like this, but I have some more questions about, you know-

Okay

... where GM and Ford are-

Mm

... in the electric car race," or whateverBased on this note, so these are services provided by the brokerages as a reason to do some of your trading activity with them.

That's a... Look, I'll, I'll, as an information lover, maybe I'll-

Oh, yeah

... you know-

No, no, it's great.

What... All right, let's go top five banks of all time.

[laughs]

What do you, what do you got? 'Cause I-

Deutsche, Deutsche, Deutsche.

Are we go- Yeah, are we going... Yeah, let's, let's start-

Silicon Valley Bank. You know, I, I j-

[laughs]

My contrarian take for a long time y- my contrarian take for a long time is that Silicon Valley Bank is, like, the type of bank that we want more banks to be because for, uh, and I say this unironically, the thing about them is they really, like, customized their offerings-

Uh-huh

... to a specific type of client, which was, of course, you know, VCs and tech startups and hold your money. This is like-

Rich virgins

... this, they're, I mean, that created this phenomenon of, like, depositor concentration risk that was not good, but it's like what you think of, like, banking. Like, they actually, like, know their clients' needs, and they had differentiated offerings and so forth. So I hel- uh, I've sort of been disabused of this notion a little bit, but I did hold a thing for some time after they blew up. It's like, "Kinda too bad. That was a good bank. That was a good org. They made a few mistakes-"

Mm-hmm

... "and the pressure of, like-"

Yeah, it's like a, it's like a, it's like a small independent credit union for a local neighborhood. You know, it's the same kind of vibe.

Yeah, yeah, except the divi- except the neighborhood was Silicon Valley, and they were, like, local-

Yeah, it's a little more money.

Yeah.

We wanted SVB to make it.

But I kinda liked SVB.

I, I, I-

Yeah

... told this story once before, I think, but I went to Silicon Valley years and years ago to shoot something, um, that involved Google, and I was at the Google office, and I asked... I was, like, ta- trying to make small talk with these fucking mouth breathers, and I was like, "Hey, where do, like, all the h- like, where do all the CEOs go for lunch? Like, what's the Nobu-

I know. [laughs]

... of, of Silicon Valley?"

Yeah. [laughs]

And they dead u- they were just like, "We don't leave for lunch. They provide that here for us." And I was like-

What are you talking about?

I was like, "Yeah, no, I know, but you know what I mean?" Like, where-

Like, where do they go? I d- yeah.

Yeah, but, like, where do they go? And, and people were just like-

That's so funny

... they did not understand the concept-

Tim Apple gets to go out for lunch probably, right?

Of, of, like, a hot lunch spot.

Where does he go?

They, like, did not understand.

It just did not compute. That's so fascinating.

Like, "They provide that for us here, and then they, we take the bus home back to..." You know, it's just-

[laughs]

... it was just all so insane. I was like, "These people are not for me. This is not for me."

They're locked in.

Mm-hmm.

They're locked in.

They're, they are locked in. They are locked in.

Yeah.

They're too locked.

They're too locked.

They're so locked, like a chastity belt.

[laughs]

Okay, um, s- we, I wanted to circle back to, to Bari Weiss and CBS really quick as we're closing out. CBS, they're speculating a, a segment, Whiskey Fridays-

Mm-hmm

... powered by Jack Daniels, where they have-

Yeah, I saw that

... a giant Jack Daniels banner on the, on the background, which is sort of co-opting the podcast business model-

Yeah

... having the cans of Liquid Death or Happy Dad or whatever-

Yeah

... shit is sponsoring your pod. Is that f- a foolish thing? Is that the end, beginning of the end, or is that the way network television is gonna have to go?

I think that every new executive producer who enters the TV business from the oth- from another industry always has the thought, "What if we could create Talking at a Bar?" This is just, like, everyone has this-

[laughs]

... this thing of what if we could create... And you've seen it.

Are you talking about Club Random? [laughs]

So I don't know if you remember, uh, Fox Business, when it launched, they had a show that was recorded at the, I forget which hotel it was in New York City, but it was at the-

Was that the, like, the Capital Grille it looked like?

Something like that.

Yeah.

So everyone who walks, who is new to a news organization, they're like, "We're gonna shake things up. We're gonna liven it up. What if we could re- recreate just you and I chatting over some drinks at a bar?" And-

Mm-hmm

... so when I saw that about Whiskey Fridays-

[laughs]

... like, yep, there it is. There's the idea. But they have a sponsor for it, so good for them.

But, but I mean-

That's what I was gonna say

... that is true, but, but I think the big difference being this is the first time, and correct me if I'm wrong, network television or cable television has had a giant alcohol sponsor billboard essentially-

Yeah

... on the backdrop of their show.

I mean, look, I don't blame anyone for trying to find a dollar in network news.

Okay.

I mean, like, you know.

I, I, I don't blame anyone for finding a dollar anywhere personally, but I-

So what if they're... You're, you're on a set right now for Odd Lots podcast. What if Bloomberg was like, "We're gonna throw a Jack Daniels banner behind you. We're gonna throw 818 Tequila behind you or Zyn or whatever it is." Are you gonna say, "Sounds good. Get your money, player," or are you gonna say, "I need, break me off 50 stacks or else I'm out of here"?

Eh, that's a good question. I don't know. [laughs]

[laughs]

[laughs]

This is the nice thing about... I will just say again, and this go, this is me being sincere again, it's nice to work for a really serious, successful organization.

Yeah, 'cause I mean-

[laughs]

... no, but that's, that, that-

Yeah, yeah, okay

... Jason, that really is the difference is, like, th- you know they ain't gonna do that-

Right, right, right, right

... because it's working. When it ain't working, you start getting desperate and you-

Be serious

... you start going to Kentucky looking for barrels, you know, to put, put in the background of the segment.

Right, right. No, I know what you mean. Like a certain place, you know, I think hotels, the Carlyle, The Chateau, there's certain things where, like, we do things a certain way, and we're never gonna waver. We're never gonna-

Right

... you know, go the cheap way. We're never gonna do some dumb, we send you an app that you have to download to get the Wi-Fi or whatever it may be. There's n- there's none of that horseshit, and there never will be, and that's how you keep your customers for life.

Keep the customer satisfied, as they say. Um-

That's right.

Um, Joe, can you send me the, the MP3 file of-

Yeah, we'll send that

... of, uh, Drink Till You Like Country?

You can just send, you have my, you have my email.

Oh, yeah, I could... Oh, I thought you wanted the audio. Yeah, I'll s- I will send you a-

I mean, I will need the, I will need the WAV or the A file of this conversation from your beautiful producer, but I would also like the song so we could throw it at the end of the episode.

I will make, I will shoot it over to you.

We need all of this for this, the, this ep-

Shoot it down. Well, and we have a lot of people-

Okay

... who listen who are in the biz, so maybe, you know, we'll get picked up.

Yeah, this could be your... Yeah, you get a publishing deal.

Oh.

You move the family down to Nashville.

Yeah, you shouldn't have been sniffing around Nashville when we could've been in Burbank the whole time.

Uh, you know what? I had an opportunity to go down there for, like, a songwri- I, visit. I don't, it's too, there's too-

2026-

... too triggering, but, uh-

... we're gonna figure out a way

... yeah, but please, if you have listeners, listeners, if you're in the biz, uh, we can g- get, uh, one of your stars to cover a Light Sweet Crude song. We'd love to license one.

There we go. He's, like, this is, see, this is the thing. This guy's money-minded, Jason. That's what we're always doing with-

[laughs]

That's it, yeah. And closing the sale right here.

Joe, thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate it.

Thanks for having me. It was a blast.

Uh, you guys listen to Odd Lots wherever you listen to podcasts, and we'll, uh, we'll see you soon.

Thanks, Joe. Appreciate it.

All right, take care.

All right, thanks, Joe.

Bye.

Later, bro.

We're gonna drink till you like country music. Just need a jukebox, tequila, and some lime. We're gonna drink till you like country music. Even if it means we're here past closing time.

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