889. - Aaron Levine

All right, uh, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian, and they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world, and they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you?

We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place.

All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. [upbeat music] How Long Gone, it's fucking clicking. Uh, Chris Black coming, coming to you from an overcast moneymaking Manhattan on this Tuesday. People are slowly trickling back to work. I thought Monday, you know, I thought January 5th would be the kickoff for kinda back to work, but it seems like that might wait until next week.

Yeah, even, even some people that work with us.

Yeah. [laughs]

You know what I mean? Susanna, Susanna it's-

Well, I'm, I'm also, this is usually a day I take off just in remembrance. Um, but-

Did something happen on this day? I don't remember

... because, oh, I mean, I, you might have remembered my outfit from that day. I kinda wore this big sort of animal-like, uh, hat.

[laughs]

Uh, and, and no shirt. Um, but-

Oh, that was your, that was your, um, your bison.

Yeah. [laughs]

It w- it wasn't, it was, it was a bison stole. It wasn't mink, I don't think.

No, it was-

It wasn't fox either

... no, that's, no. A bison stole is for a man.

Uh-huh.

You, you get, you get my drift. Um, but yeah, happy January 6th to all those who celebrate, all those who storm-

[laughs]

... uh, Ariel Pink. I- I know you're listening.

Wow, it's the fifth anni- fifth anniversary. It's been five years. If somebody said that was two years ago, I'd be like, "Yeah, that's crazy, isn't it?"

I believe, oh yeah, I'd believe it. Well, I'm, I'm, I've got an amazing view of the, um, the, the sort of trials and tribulations of the, the arrest of the Venezuelan president.

[laughs]

Um, I'm your pusher-

Didn't, didn't think that's where this was gonna- I thought it was gonna be a different guy playing basketball with his shirt off, but-

I wish. I'd much rather look at that

... you've got eyeballs on the biggest news story on planet Earth.

Yes. The biggest news story on planet Earth is happening on my block, and it's s-

[laughs]

I'm surrounded by cameramen. And what I've noticed most, and what I find really interesting about news today, and, and this makes, you know, this makes sense, of course, but I would say more than half of the people d- I'm, I'm not clear on which outlets they're from that are here to cover that story, are using iPhones and basically, like, an elevated ring light-

Yeah. Yeah, yeah

... to do, to, to do it. There's no-

Mm-hmm

... like the i- the idea of, like, the truck pulling up, and I, I'm, I know that still happens, but there's none of that, and this is the biggest story in the world.

I mean, because the truck had the satellite for the live feed, and you know, I'm sure Barry Weiss cut that budget over at CBS. Nobody's watching, you know, live news. It's all clips anyway, so why not get a 26-year-old intern with a ring light and an iPhone Orange 17 and just knock this shit out with their other intern, you know what I mean?

That's, that's [laughs]

It's just gonna live on the phone.

No, for sure. That's really what it is. Because I'm looking at people, I'm like, oh, maybe this guy, 'cause I saw, like a, a fat l- sorta, like, Safdie brothers character type walking down the street going to phone, like to camera, and then I realized that the, the back of his dad hat just said "The Constitution." [laughs]

[laughs]

And I was like, I was like, oh, this guy's good. So I follow this guy for a little while, and he's-

So this guy loves documents

... he's just talking to camera. He's just like a, he's like a right-wing influencer is the vibe I'm getting from this guy who looks like he could be Hulk Hogan's, like, brother.

Did it say "uphold the Constitution" or just "the Constitution"?

No, I, I o- I only saw him from the back, and it w- it was, it said just in all caps, you know, above the, you know, above the hole where your, your hair sticks out-

[laughs]

... "The Constitution." Just it's a, it's a document that he believes in, and do you really need more context from something that great?

Not above the hole. [laughs]

[laughs] Oh, I'm on my bullshit today, Jason.

What is a hat if nothing but a hole? Am I right, Chris?

I mean, dude, when you put it like that.

Yeah, there are, you know, I, I was, I've been thinking a lot about that how it used to be, you know, you could grow up and go to trade school and be a cameraman, you know? Like Decatur Dan's dad, you know, get hired at-

Yeah

... ESPN. You film NFL games. You raise a family.

You work there your whole life.

And now they're like, yeah, but we all have a phone. We're all cameramen. We're all camera thems. It does, you know, it, it's not as if the audience cares or is able to discern the difference, and they may even prefer... You know, it's like crack is better than cocaine in many ways, and-

Yeah

... iPhone video of, uh, a national news story-

It's gonna hit the same

... better than whatever, you know, getting the, renting the Red cam.

It's gonna hit the same. It's gonna hit the same. But there were several protesters also yelling "Death to America."

Oh, really?

Um, which I, oh yeah. Oh yeah, which was a, a funny twist when I was walking to the dry clean- Dude, man, I haven't been to the dry cleaners in a minute, Jason, just 'cause, you know, life gets in the-

I need to go today

... life gets in the way, and you know-

Yeah

... you got, you got, you got stuff to do, you know, things to, things happening, and I just-

Mm-hmm

... dude.

The cape doesn't wash itself, does it, Chris?

Talk about, talk about no loads refused.

[laughs]

That dry cleaner-That dry cleaner wa- wasn't ready for what I was pulling up with

Okay, so you, you had been, you had been edging your laundry-

For, for literally-

For how long?

... months because we-

Months?

Yeah, because we moved and, like, didn't have a spot. You know what I mean?

Oh, okay.

And then, like, you ask people in the neighborhood, and you kinda forget, and then I ask, and then-

Mm-hmm

... actually, Hannah was like, "Oh, no, there's a spot." And we took it, and, and God willing, this is the greatest news I've ever gotten, they also deliver. Pick up and deliver.

Ooh.

The New York dream is to have your, your suits picked up and laundered.

So they took a page out of The RealReal and said, "We'll come to you"?

Except they actually [laughs] except they char-

[laughs]

Yeah. Except they, uh, they actually do what they say they're gonna do and return it.

Oh.

You know?

Come on.

The RealReal, you know.

The RealReal will come, they will take your Alaïa chore coat and give you $17 US for it, and it is a nice, clean transaction. Don't, don't be jealous.

Once it sells too. That's the craziest part.

[laughs]

Once it sells, but yeah, I was, I was pretty happy with my, with my ... But yeah, anyway, on the way, what a New York experience. You know, you walk out, you got your puffer jacket on, you got a huge load of laundry over your right arm.

Mm-hmm. Max B's out, waving.

Max B's out doing the folded dance with his homie, Paws.

[laughs]

And then, and then I hear, "Death to America" as I'm walking to spend $500 on, on my-

[laughs]

... my family's dry cleaning. And I just think-

[laughs]

... what have I, what have I done with my life? What are the decisions I've made that have led me here?

Well, I don't think it ... I mean, it doesn't have anything to do with you, Chris. That's just-

That's true

... that's just America. I don't ... Where I live in the suburbs of Los Angeles, there is no, "Death to America." Everyone that I surround myself with loves America. Very patriotic. Flags all over the place.

You know that the Armenian flag is not the same as the American flag? I just wanna double check.

I've been, I've been scolded on that issue-

Okay. [laughs]

... specifically mu- a number of times in my Instagram replies. Um, yeah, there wa- ... I mean, I know the difference, but, you know, the people that I happen to surround myself, you know, by luck of the draw, everyone is like, "America is fucking sick as hell. I have a Cadillac Escalade. I smoke cigarettes, and I eat food and hang out with my bros all day long, and I just drive people to the airport and back."

Honestly, sounds-

And there are no air raid sirens.

Yeah, yeah.

And there is, you know, it's, it's-

Sounds better than my life. Um-

[laughs]

I, I ... And I don't even like going to the airport unless I'm leaving.

And the Erewhon is not even open yet.

See-

Do you know what I mean? Just imagine

... drivers love Erewhon, and I think it's, I think it-

It, it evo- ... No, I don't think they do.

I think the vibe is, like, one for you, one for me. You know what I mean? If I gotta go there. I, I've, I, I just think that there's always a line, there's always a ton of drivers at the one in West Hollywood eating with each other. Like, they link up there to eat and, and hang.

So, like, very, like, Kareem taxi cab, like, we go to the Ethiopian spot on 119th Street?

It's like, it, it's like that, but guys with Escalade.

[laughs]

Like, the biggest Escalade you can find on Earth, and they're double parked. No, for real. This, I was always like, "Oh, one of the guys-"

I believe you.

And I'm like, these guys are eating healthy, but they're also smoking cigs. It just feels like a real experience. You know-

I mean-

... a real LA experience in that way

... welcome to my mother freaking life.

Welcome to my life. Well, we-

Speaking, speaking of the LA experience, there's that ... We were reading that article about how writers have to move to New York because LA is too expensive.

Or move anywhere, I think was kind of the vi- anywhere but LA.

Move anywhere-

Chicago

... but they all seem to go to New York, right?

Sort of. It was, it was ... I mean, yes, I think New York was the main thing, but there was also ... It does seem strange to me to leave LA because there's no work to, and move to New York where there's no work, and it's more expensive.

That was my, that was what I was thinking.

Maybe I'm getting it wrong. Like, move to Milwaukee and live a good normal life. But I do think that the, I think that the, the downfall of Los Angeles is probably a little, um, over-reported. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Like, I don't ... When I go there, the vibe is totally fine.

Mm-hmm.

I think it's like anything. If you want it to be bad for you, then it will be, and if you want it to be-

[laughs]

... good for you, it will be. Like, I feel like I choose to wake up every day, and I choose happiness [laughs] and not-

Mm-hmm

... and I think you have to do that. And obviously, like, when your industry is crumbling, blah, blah, you know, whatever, but, like, I don't think that has to do with the, the sort of geographic location.

I agree. I agree.

That's the only issue. I mean, I think that the, all of that stuff that, that happened in LA is very real, but I don't think that ... I don't know. I, I don't-

Yeah

... I think that the, that, that some of that ... I think the story's interesting, and I think there's a lot of truth to it. Like, I think it's, I think it's probab-

I agree

... you know, it's a v- a real thing that's happening. I just don't know if you can blame LA.

Yeah, it, it fee- it feels less geogra- but, I mean, uh, we need to have, uh, we need to have sticks on heads, as they say, and LA is the perfect punching bag 'cause we're always punching up, and everyone there is hot and cool and rich, and it doesn't matter. But yeah, I, I think it's ... In the, in the times where you could do any job anywhere with any equipment, and the barrier of entry is pretty much nil, you know, we, we have seen this happen in many other creative fields, um, you know, in music and film and ex- et cetera, et cetera, where you can do whatever. And now, you know, the day of reckoning is finally coming to writers, I guess.

Okay, how do you think [laughs] how do you think when all those session musicians felt when, you know, Memphis cooled off?

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? They weren't happy. When Muscle Shoals cooled off, those guys were not, not happy.

Yeah.

They were not happy.

I mean, when Soulja Boy makes $5 million off of a phone ... uh, you know, an, a beat that he made on his phone, and nobody knows, nobody ... You know, the same thing as filming, you know, international news on an iPhone with a ring light. It's just like, oh yeah, it doesn't matter. None of this matters.

No.

And now suddenly you can have a great comedy show, or you could be a great writer, and you could live in Rhode Island or Vancouver or Chile and just, if you're good, you're gonna make it, and if you're not good enough, you're probably not gonna make it.

Doesn't ... Yeah.

Just the same thing with every other creative field now.

I ... No, that's true. That's really true. Um, well, we should, we should wish a bon voyage to a friend of the show, Will Welch, who announced today he's-

Mm

... he's leaving GQ.

Big Willy.

They call me Big-To go work with Skateboard P over in-

Mm-hmm

... Pari. Um, but I'm happy for him. I, I didn't, I didn't realize somehow, 19 years is a long-

Long time in the trenches

... fucking time to work somewhere. That, that's really impressive, honestly. Like, I, I haven't done anything for 19 years, you know? Uh, so I'm-

[laughs]

... I'm impressed. But-

That's not true

... I, I mean, been an asshole, I guess. But otherwise, you know, it's pretty light. But I was, I was ... I'm happy for him. I think it'll be fun.

Damn, 19 years ago, two- 2007, the, that was when YouTube started.

Dude.

First iPhone.

'Cause now, without that, I wouldn't know how to change my tire or anything, so that's pretty big.

And Hurricane Katrina, not to bring it back.

Well, I, I, we don't have time to get into that, obviously.

Not to bring it back to Natty Disasties.

Natty [laughs]

Natty Disasties.

[laughs]

Yeah, but yeah, Will, Will, good luck. And whoever you appoint to run the red carpet correspondence, uh, moving forward in 2026, you know, make sure that we get first dibs at that-

You can go ahead-

Thank you so much

... you maybe you can go ahead and write that into your exit agreement. You know, I don't wanna, I don't wanna make it about us-

[laughs]

... but, you know, it would be, it would be a nice, you know, it'd be a nice ... It'll be, it'll be-

It's the right thing to do, William

... it'll be fun to see who, who gets, you know, who gets the job. I have, I have my own ideas. Um-

It's gonna be Sundberg, obviously.

But we have a guest today. Old friend Aaron Levine is joining us. Uh, he is a, a designer who has worked for countless brands over the years. He has his own brand now, as well as a, a big Zara collab that's in stores that I tried to find, 'cause I was looking for the ... He's telling me that argyle's back, and I believe him, so I was trying to cop.

Really?

Um, but let's-

And he also has the most important job of all, Chris. Dad.

[laughs] That's true. That's true. He's not, not, not just, not just a human dad, but a dog dad as well. I don't wanna-

I did not know that. I did not know that.

[laughs]

I cannot wait to go pay some bills and get on the Chatterbox with him. Okay, let's give him a call.

[laughs] This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian, Stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's a, it's trying to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions.

A lot of questions, but how often? 'Cause we do this podcast three times a week, and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do?

Three times a week. And I, I, I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe gonna be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess.

The Guardian is not some billionaire-owned platform. They're not afraid to say what they wanna say, brother.

Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in, in what, uh, journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at, at, uh, Stateside.

Mm-hmm.

But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch on YouTube. It's three times a week. And, and who couldn't use more news? You know, especially, especially when it's, when it's not, you know, from here, let's say.

[laughs]

Give, give it a, give it a listen. Give it a listen. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by our best friends at BetterHelp. Jason, we're, we're deep into May, which is, uh, mental health awareness month, and this is just a reminder that whatever you're going through, you don't have to go through it alone. Life is a damn journey. Some days feel good and others feel overwhelming. Whatever's keeping you up at night, it's easy to feel like you have to figure it all out on your own. But the truth is, no one has all the answers. Well, and no journey should be alone. Having someone with you to listen, to understand, and to support you can really make all the difference.

I agree, Chris, and sometimes, you know, it, it's nice to be talking to somebody even if they're not even listening, even if you don't even get to s- be in the same room with them, because what you're doing is you're admitting these things to yourself and that's the most, that's the most rewarding thing you can do sometimes. So you can have a great little therapy sesh with your perfect therapist at BetterHelp. Choosing between over 30,000 people so you can get the right one just for you. Over six million people globally are using it. And, you know, have some breakthroughs, go on that walk after your BetterHelp sesh, you know, whatever it might be. Get a nice little lunch all for yourself, maybe a non-alcoholic kombucha, and just think and be like, "Damn, I really am him." You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have somebody with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/howlong. That is better H-E-L-P .com/howlong.

Oh, man, I can't wait to be here. I'm so excited. This is-

I can't wait to be here. Okay

... yeah, this is gonna be good.

H- how are you today, big bro? You good?

I'm okay, man. Yeah, all good. All good. It's, like, freezing cold and rainy here in the Rust Belt right now, so-

I'm grappling with that. You're, you're in, you're in Ohio, is that right?

Yeah, I'm outside of Columbus in a town called Granville. I came here in 2015 for a gig that ended-

Put your Gs up

... in Granville.

Put your Gs up. Okay. Um-

Put your Gs up. Okay, so-

So, i- go ahead, Chris.

No, no, I'm just fascinated with this living choice because I feel like it's very, very nice, but how long does it take you to get to the closest airport, flying commercial, of course?

Um, I, I, I can't remember the last time I flew commercial, but, like, if I were to-

[laughs]

... it would be, like, 30 minutes-

There we go

... or so.

Okay.

30 minutes.

So is, are, is it fair to say you are the white Dave Chappelle?

Yeah. [laughs]

[laughs]

Yeah.

Taking your, taking your, your, your wealth and your riches you've accumulated over the last couple decades-

Yeah

... and then put it all into a, a, a barn in Ohio and live like a king?

Exactly. That's exactly it.

Okay.

That's exactly it.

And then, and then you, and then you're so enigmatic, the world comes to you.

Yeah, they come to you.

Instead of the other way around.

That's how you gotta set it up. Exactly.

[laughs] It's the reverse of changing the weather.

Yeah, I have to say, as, as much as I can't imagine living, uh, outside of Columbus, Ohio, it does look pretty fucking nice. I have to, I ... It looks idyllic in many, many ways.

What?

It does.

I don't ... I've never heard anyone say that.

Well, you, maybe, maybe you don't follow Aaron on Instagram. It looks g- I'm saying his shit look good. I'm not saying-

Present company exclu-

I'm not saying the neighbors make it look good. I'm saying he makes it look good.

No one's ever said, "Man, I've seen all these photos of Columbus, Ohio, and I gotta say, that shit looks good."

[laughs]

So, you know, it's like we live on, like, a little farm here, and there's a university called Denison that's in this town, right? It's, like, well off. It's liberal arts school. Um, so they take-They take good care of the town, and there's like a nice intellectual, liberal community that's here. And, uh, you know-

Mm-hmm

... it's like low-

Oh, I see

... it's a low lift.

Mm-hmm.

As long as you fit the criteria of the, of the liberal arts demographic.

Like, I'm sure there-

Like, will I, will I be welcomed in your community if I don't have an Ethel Cain tattoo?

You-

You know what I mean?

Exactly. Exactly.

[laughs]

You know, like, it, it's, it's, um, uh, it's mellow. It's a good place to be for now. It has pros and cons. And, you know, I don't know how much longer we'll be here, but it was a good run while we were-

Mm

... located.

I mean, I think it's, I, I think it's like, this... But you, uh, you were an early settler, because I feel like that's what happened. You know, once COVID hit, everybody was like, "I gotta live, I gotta get out of these cities, man." You know? So at least-

Fucking Bozeman, dude. Bozeman is lit right now.

At least you got in when the getting was good.

You know, we ca- I came here for Abercrombie.

Yeah.

Right? Like, I'd never been to-

Mm

... Ohio-

Oh, shit

... before that

... you just, you went in, you went in raw, dog? Like, I bought this shit on-

100%.

You hit the Zillow link and just went?

100%.

[laughs]

100%. You know, I think the same-

Damn

... visit I came in for the interview was the same visit that's, that some realtor was, like, driving me around, and I was like, "What is going on?"

You were in New York at the time, r- right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We lived in Westchester before this, and, um, in a town called Croton, and then, um, came here in 2015 and was just like jaw on the ground, kind of frozen in the headlights a little bit for a while.

I feel like those are the kind of decisions that you either labor over too much, or you just gotta pull the trigger and fucking do it.

Dude, pull the trigger. Actually, you know, I was offered, I remember I was offered the job, I was in, like, the hallway at Club when I was working there at Club Monaco, and I was... I took the call from Abercrombie, and I was like, I balked. I, I, I said I couldn't do it. I said I didn't, I didn't want the job. Um-

Art of the negotiation, bro. That's nice. [laughs]

Exactly, exactly, exactly.

[laughs]

And then I remember getting off the phone, and I was like, "You know what?"

Woo.

"I'm just gonna call my mom, my spiritual advisor, and just be like, 'Hey, what do you think about this?'" And she was like, "I think you're stupid. What is your problem?"

Your mo- you slide the piece of paper over the table to your mom-

[laughs]

... with the sala- salary on it, and she's like, "You're a fucking idiot, son. I thought I raised you better than this."

So, so-

[laughs]

... to put this in, in, in, uh, in right-wing terms, it's like you're on the Lakers, you're living life in WeHo, you're having, you know, dinner at Catch up every night, and then they're like, "We got the offer. 12 million a year, but you gotta play for the Minnesota Timberwolves." And you're like, "Mm-hmm." There you go. Break out, like, the down puffers to keep the north cold.

Or, or, or, you know, L- if LeBron went from the Lakers to the Cavs.

There's-

Yeah. To, to keep it, um, Ohio.

Rever- yeah, to keep it Ohio.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I love that you balked, because I do think that's-

[laughs]

I, I think it's funny that you... I, I feel like that's... 'Cause how long did you have to contemplate this, or were they kinda like, "We need a decision now"?

But, but also back then Abercrombie wasn't as cool and revival as it is now.

No, he's the one who r- he's the one who fucking revived it. That's the whole fucking thing.

I, I-

I know, I know. [laughs]

Y- you know, like, I think it was really quick, right? Like, I had a buddy that worked at Club, and, and I was in Paris for PV, which is, like, that fabric buying show.

Yeah, yeah.

And he calls me in the middle of the night, and he's like, "Yo, I'm, I'm leaving." And he was, like, my partner there, you know? And I was like, "Oh, man. Dude, if you leave, I don't know what I'm gonna do." You know? And then, um-

Can't be in the club solo.

[laughs]

I was like, "You're gonna go to one of two places."

[laughs]

And I was like, "Is this one of them?" And he was like, "Yeah." And I was like, "Well, let me know if you need help." And he's like, "I need help." So it was, like, real quick.

Wow.

Real quick transition.

Yeah, I think that's the, I think that's the only w- I think some of this stuff takes so long that it's sorta like, what are we doing? I was talking about this yesterday with, like, the way bands get signed. I'm like, dude, if you like it that much-

No

... and you're an A&R guy, what are you gonna d- what, why are you gonna kick the bucket for six months? Like, just, just do it.

Right.

Like, it's, there's no reason. I just think o- if the terms can be agreed upon quickly, then I think the deal should be done quickly.

What was that d- was it Malcolm M- Cl- who was, who, who was it? Was it Malcolm McLaren at Creation Records who discovered Oasis in Manchester? Was that, is that completely far off? I can't remember.

I think so.

Like, it was, s- saw him in a club. Saw him in a club, was like, "Pull the trigger immediately-"

You got-

"... on these guys."

I, I just think that, I just think that, like, those stories make a lot of sen- like, obviously you hear those stories when it's someone like that, 'cause-

Yeah

... everybody wants you to know that they were a genius.

Yeah.

But I think [laughs] it can happen-

Yeah

... I think that can happen on much smaller levels and have a similar effect where it's like-

Oh, thanks. Thanks for that. I appreciate it.

No, I don't mean-

It's awesome. Welcome. [laughs]

... I don't, I don't mean to you.

Thank you.

I'm talking about the music biz.

I appreciate it.

Like, I'm just like, what are you guys doing? Like, your job is to put out records, so, like, you gotta put out... I don't understand what you're doing.

Uh, really quick to, to correct. Or sorry, Aaron. Um, it was Alan McGee, the other co-founder of Creation Records-

Oh, yeah. Sure, sure

... who signed-

Thank you

... McLaren. Just for-

Thank you. I'm mixing up my docs. I appreciate you keeping me honest. 'Cause I was like, I felt like he, Ma- McLaren was, like, a little bit too early for Oasis, but, like, I appreciate that.

Yeah.

Man, man.

But Oasis, at this point, Oasis, that was a long fucking time ago. You know what I mean?

Yeah, true.

Like, it, it does-

True

... he was too early, but it feels like it's, it's appropriate timing-wise.

Yeah. True. True. You know, and also, man, I was like, look, y- you know, on paper, the whole New York thing was awesome. It was like, all right, ideally, when I was living in the city, I was like, "All right. I wanna get out. I wanna be, like, close to work. I wanna live in the country-ish." And Croton seemed like that, right? It was, like, 20 miles outside. It was on the Hudson River. It was, like, kind of idyllic. It was not incorporated, so there were just, like, funky little restaurants and-

Mm-hmm

... you know, everything was independent there. And in reality, you know, it took me two hours each way to get to and from work.

[laughs]

I never saw my house.

Sure, sure, sure.

Like, I was just like, this is-

Sure

... this is stupid. I'm not seeing my kids. I'm like, "This is fake." Like, on paper, it's like, check. If you talk to someone, it's like, it all checks out. You got it. Great. And I'm like, I'm standing there on the train platform-

[laughs]

... at, like, 7:23 on a Tuesday in February-

[laughs]

... and it's, like, pissing sleet on me, and I'm, like, looking up and down the track with all these people, and I'm likeI do what I do to, like, not do that and live like this.

Mm-hmm.

And, like, here I am-

Yeah

... like a schlub doing the same old bullshit as, like, all these other folks.

Mm-hmm.

If you're making the, if you're making the bread, it's like, yeah, sure, we'll live in the fucking West Village. I'm gonna do this whole thing.

Mm-hmm.

O- otherwise, otherwise it's... You're right. What you did is the mo- it's, like, all that shit is fake.

Yeah.

You're absolutely right.

I, I don't know. And for, like, how I live, right, like, I'm, like, a nerd, man. I'm not, I'm not out there. I'm, I'm, I'm okay chilling for a bit, and then, um, we'll see what's next when the girls go to college.

When did... Oh, so I see. So you're about to... The chains are about to free. You're about to be free.

Free. But we, but I don't know. I, you know, like, who knows? These are, like, big life decisions. It's a weird time, fellas, you know? It's like you're sniffing 50, and you're just like-

[laughs]

... "All right, cool. I feel like I'm 18. I act like I think I'm 18." So I'm like, "What, what's next?"

Sure.

You know?

Sure.

So, so what, what... Which peptides are you on then, King? What's going on?

[laughs] Share the stack, bro. Don't be stingy.

I'm sniffing 50. I'm, "Oh, I fucking fuck like a champion, though. Oh, T-Rex."

[laughs]

[laughs] I'm staring at these bulls across, like, the street, right? There's, like, this little, little kinda cow farm across the street. And it's like whenever they go inject those bulls with whatever they inject them with, I just, like-

[laughs]

... bust out on me.

W- I gotta mosey on over-

Yeah

... just bend over, see what happens.

I'll be like, "Oh, look at that."

I think give me a taste.

Hey.

I mean, w- where have you ever, where have you ever thought about living beside... 'Cause where are you from originally?

I'm from, uh, Northern Virginia, DMV, outside of DC.

Okay.

Oh.

So, so have you thought... So you're an East Coast guy. Have you thought about an LA chapter, a London chapter?

I have.

Okay.

I have.

We ju- we just spent some time in LA together. What was that, a couple weeks ago?

Couple weeks ago, yeah. We were over there at Mohawk. Um, thanks, Kevin, for that. Um, you know, I have. I have thought about that. But a- but again, like, I, I feel like I need something to push me over the edge to, like, make, you know, to, to pull the trigger on something.

Like, you need a little bit more of a reason than just, "I like it."

I think so. I don't know. I have no idea, which is also kinda cool.

Yeah.

Like, I don't have to know right now.

Mm-hmm.

You know?

Yeah.

You need the thing, but we don't know what that thing is, and that's super exciting and super scary.

Both of those things.

Do your daughters think you're cool yet? Have they crossed over?

No. No.

Okay. Okay.

No. No. No. No.

[laughs]

Like, the temperature drops, like, 20 degrees when they come down the stairs. It's just like-

[laughs]

[laughs]

... you know? Like, the-

All right, so they're not, they're not having it. They're like, "All right, big dog."

Zero percent. Zero percent. And if they do, they do, like, an amazing job of making believe they don't.

I didn't know if maybe, I didn't know maybe if there had been a crossover where they wanted something that you could provide, obviously besides, like, food and shelter.

Oh, dude, that, there's constant, there's constant that. There's constant, like-

[laughs]

... oh, you know, like, "Wait a minute. What do you want?" Like, if you're nice to me, I'm like, "W- I need to give you money for something."

[laughs]

But I'm like, "What do you want?" You know?

You're, so you're more than happy to buy their love and affection at Brandy Melville.

[laughs]

[laughs]

Yeah. Yeah.

Isn't that the way?

No problem.

Isn't that the way?

Yeah, I thought that was the only... I mean, that's the only way it works. I, I guess I've, we've talked to a lot of people on the podcast that have ha- that are in the music business or whatever, and it's like their 13 or 14-year-old won't give them the time of day until they're like, "Oh, yeah? Well, you wanna see Chappell Roan?"

Mm-hmm.

"All right. Well, w- let's take you and all your fucking little friends-"

Totally

... "to go see."

Totally. You know, and I, and look, I'm not, I'm not trying to bust their balls too hard. Like, you know, I think, I s- they're both 17 years old. I've got identical twin daughters, and I think we get along pretty well.

Mm.

And I do love them, like, a whole bunch, and we got it pretty good.

But you got... But you can be honest about the situation. Yeah, you know.

100%.

It's also, like, it's only a couple more years till they realize you're cool, is the reality.

That's what's nice about being older, is that I just, I can't give a shit about that anymore.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like, I can't care. That, that, that to me, like, if they, if we're cool and we can, like, sit down and, like, play Corkle and, like, watch a movie in the, in the living room with a fire going, I'm like, "That's cool to me." Like, that's cool.

I think, I th- that's sort of what I mean. I don't mean-

Yeah, yeah. Totally

... I don't mean, I just mean, like, you know what I'm saying. Like, I think, I think what, there's a certain age where everybody thinks their parents are, like, the worst, no matter what.

Totally.

Regardless of how much you're paying for their life.

Yeah, well, also regardless of what you do for a living-

[laughs]

... which is so crazy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right

... you know? It's just so crazy.

Okay. Well, so you, you said twin 17-year-old daughters, so that means they have... Have they both been accepted into college? Do they know where they're going yet?

Yeah, they've been accepted into a couple colleges. We're waiting for, like, a couple more.

Are we going to... Is this the first time that they're gonna be split, or are they gonna go to the same school?

Yes.

Okay.

Yes.

Wow.

They're gonna s-

This is big

... they're gonna split. They're gonna go to different schools.

Like you need another thing to deal with right now.

Uh, dude-

Am I right, Aaron?

... um, it's, it's all good, dude. It's all good.

'Cause the nest is getting empty, and then the empty nest is, is splitting into two.

'Cause you know Jas- you know Jason's famously a twin.

Are you really? Did not know that.

That's right, twin.

Are you identical twin?

We are not identical. We are fraternal, and neither of us were super collegiate, so that was not an issue either.

[laughs] They went to separate colleges too, Santa Monica Community and Orange County Community. It's a different-

All good. All good

... several prestigious universities in the Orange County area.

They were competing, they were competing for, for both of them, but they-

To be fair, my brother did complete much more coll- he went to school for architecture, and he, he actually did do a path and he did get a, a, a BA, I believe, whereas I-

Yeah, Matt didn't make it

... yeah, look, I, I went to sc- I went to college the year I discovered marijuana, so, you know.

Did you g- you went to college, right, Aaron?

Same. Same. Yes, I did. I went to... But I, I had, like, I didn't have the best relationship with college, right? I had a problem with authority, and like, and Jason, like, yeah, like, I had, like, I found stuff there that definitely, like, changed my opinion and, like, thought process on, like, what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do it.

Mm.

And I just didn't know how to get there, so I just kept trying to figure myself out more while I was there.

[laughs]

So you're saying that you finished college even though you left for multiple months to follow the Grateful Dead on tour?

I, [laughs] I got kicked out multiple times, dude.

[laughs]

And I did not, I left with six credits shy because-

Oh

... there were a couple semesters where I believe I got, like, a 0.0 because I didn't withdraw or anything. I just-

Stopped

... withdrawed emotionally-

Yeah. Sure

... and mentally, and was too stupid to, like-

I'm, I'm focusing on trying to see which pills work for me right now-

[laughs]

... so I'm not really gonna-

[laughs]

I'm not, I'm not in the, I'm just trying to get all my credits.

I'm deep in analysis here. I'm deep in analysis.

You, you guys don't even understand what I'm on right now.

Yeah, serious.

This is, this is beyond you.

So I struggled with it, but, like, like you, Jason, right, like, I'm, I'm ADD as hell, and, like, I, I, I think it's thrown around a lot these days, but, like, I, you know, it's, like, crippling to me. So when I'm in that environment, that's, like, not my environment to succeed, you know?

Mm.

It wasn't built.For people like me-

Yeah

... you know? And like, and how my brain works, so.

Well, did you, did we get the, um-

Huh?

Aaron, did we get this yet?

Oh, not yet, dude. But I'm going to.

Did you brick up?

I'm going to.

Okay.

I'm going to.

Jason sold, Jason sold me on it, and it worked.

Okay.

I was talking to him about it. He w- he w- you were having some light phone issues-

Yeah

... and blah, blah, blah, and.

And I'm like, the thing to me, like, I'm not, I'm not gonna complicate anything else by carrying another stupid thing, right? So I think I'm just, not that it's stupid, respect to the people that made it or whatever, but like-

[laughs]

... I, I'm just like, I, I, j- I will, I will, I will subscribe to the, to the brick setup.

You already live in a barn in Ohio.

Exactly.

We don't need a light phone too.

Yeah, literally. Literally, bro, you live-

You got a light house

... you live in a light, in a light phone.

[laughs]

I think-

Yeah, you got a light life. [laughs]

I think that the, the, the brick is really, I, I gotta say, it's the perfect version. I think all that stuff that you're talking about, it does, it adds a second thing to carry, where the b- the brick... And I've, I've used it, I use it every day, especially when I'm at the gym.

What's your program? How does it work? How do you use it? H- what do you turn off?

[laughs]

What do you leave on?

I turn off Instagram-

Yep

... and Twitter.

Yep.

And I brick it before I leave the house to go to the gym, so therefore I'm not wasting time on the mach- 'cause basically I was really, I would get really mad at people for wasting time on-

Of course

... on machines.

Of course. I was doing it this morning at the gym. I was watching, and then I'm doing the same damn thing.

Exactly, and that was my issue.

Mm-hmm.

I'm like, Chris, you're part of the problem, as usual.

Mm-hmm.

And I, the brick solves that. And then before bed, just so once you're in be- if you leave it, 'cause you keep it in the other room.

Yeah.

You tap it before you get into bed, you plug your phone in.

Mm-hmm.

You can't use your ph- there's nothing to look at.

Tap it before bed.

Oh, man, so I, when I get into bed, I'll, I'll do like, I'll do those New York Times, like, puzzles. Like, I'll do crossword puzzles or whatever, the whole-

Mm-hmm

... I'll try and like run through a couple of those things. And I love that stuff, and it, I think it helps me go to sleep, but then inevitably, like, I'll just, I'll just get on Instagram and-

Well, look, bro, that's better than... Oh, yeah, I'm, I'm looking at Kaia Gerber. You're fucking doing-

[laughs]

You know, it's fine. It's f- like, I think maybe that would help you go to sleep, and that might be good for you. You know what I mean? [laughs]

Yeah, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That might be better.

Yeah, uh, so, so there's diff- I mean, you, you bring up the crossword, 'cause once you cut off your main lifelines, your Instagram, your Twitter, your TikTok, whatever, the ones that are the big time sucks, you start looking at other apps as sources of entertainment.

Yes, yes.

And you're like, oh, maybe I'll, you know. So like, like Carolyn, my wife, for example, it's very easy for her to just go straight to real estate listings, The RealReal, this, you know.

Yeah.

Like, her dopamine hit is just fine with that stuff, whereas I don't, I don't get that at all, so-

Yeah

... she'll have to restrict other things, but she has it on a timer where-

Where do you get, where do you get an extra dopamine hit if you brick your phone and you are just, like, sitting there staring at a wall? Like, how do you get, how do you fill... Do- are you constructive with the way that you fill that space, or are you, are you just finding-

I am

... like, another dopamine hit someplace else?

I'm constructive.

He thinks he, he, he thinks he is. Wha- what are you... What... Tell, t- share with us, Jason, what you're doing that's constructive.

So it's called Angry Birds, and it's really-

[laughs]

No, no. So no, no. I use this app called Picnic, like when you have lunch in a park.

[laughs]

And it basically gamifies deleting old photos off of your phone.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So-

Yeah, yeah, yeah

... you just hit a button every single day, and it'll just be a pic of some food, and you swipe left to keep it, swipe right to delete it.

I love it.

So I'm able to just delete, you know, we all have 50,000 photos on our camera.

Totally.

It's most- mostly horseshit.

Totally.

So I, I'll, I re- I remove, you know, 200 photos and videos off of my phone every day.

I like it.

Look, I, I guess-

I like it

... that is technically using the time wisely-

[laughs]

... but it's, it's a little bit of a, that's a little bit of, like, unnecessary busywork-

Yeah

... if you wanna-

Well, I mean, if I'm gonna be sitting on a chair-

Sure

... having a cigarette for 10 minutes, then yeah.

[laughs] Yeah.

Sure, sure, sure.

I mean, I'm not gonna be like, "Well, I'm finally gonna-"

Yeah

... you know, reorganize my closet, you know?

No, sure, sure, sure. You're right. As far as digital, as far as digital goes, you're right. That's a good use of it. I get a lot of ads, yeah.

I mean, either that or, or, or, or also it, it makes, um, texting your friends and calling your friends and, you know, staying in touch with people that you are close with, that suddenly becomes more interesting than-

Totally

... looking at Twitter where the funniest people in the world live, or looking on Instagram where the hottest, coolest people in the world live.

Totally.

It reminds you that you also have friends in the real world-

Totally

... that you enjoy their presence around. They're not as hot, but you know.

[laughs]

Good enough. [laughs]

They're good enough. Solid sixes.

I'd say we're just-

Solid sixes

... we're just ta-

Yeah

... we're talking. I'm not even looking at them, so it's kinda fine. You know what I mean?

[laughs]

It doesn't really, it doesn't really matter what they look like. It doesn't really matter what they look like.

You know, I, it's funny that you, like, oh, like organize your closet or whatever. Like, uh, like I'm, I'm a, I'm a compulsive keeper, and I was... Like, I got into that. I tried to gamify that this past weekend. I was in, I was-

I thought I saw you do a, I thought, I thought I saw you do a little clean haul.

Holy shit, man.

[laughs]

It was like... I, I mean, I've got stuff from 20 years back, in bins and boxes of stuff that I thought I would need at the time when I left those jobs.

I mean, to, to be fair, to, to be, to be fair to you, this is your job, and it has been. Guys like you are supposed to have a lot of stuff.

You know, that's the excuse-

Yeah

... I've used on myself for two decades, right?

[laughs] Sure, sure, sure, sure.

And it's like, it's like, I, I think the same, at the same time, I, I, when I was, like, keeping all this shit, I was like, "Oh, I might need that thing for this project that I don't know if it even exists 20 years from now." Or I'm like, "Just dump it, and, like, figure out a new way to solve a problem," you know? Uh, and I, and that was, like, super liberating. I had, you know, 15 bags of trash down at the curb, like 20 big cardboard boxes-

Mm

... and re-binning shit in my studio. So it's like, okay, cool. I had to, like, force edit all this stuff, and then, like, really talk myself off a cliff when I was getting rid of some of this stuff, and donate, I donated, like, 10 huge 50-gallon garbage bags of clothes.

Damn, some of these old liberal arts students are about to look fly.

Yeah, they're-

They're about to come up.

Yo, yo, yo, yo, yo. You, maybe they looked fly, like, in 2008. They wouldn't look fly in that shit now.

[laughs]

It is whack.

Oh, wow, my barista's wearing skinny suits all of a sudden.

Yeah.

They're so weird.

It's a lot of, lot of club. Lot of club in there.

[laughs]

Oh, yeah. I mean, a lot of hickey [laughs] like, um, I was, like, grimacing at this stuff when I was pulling it out. I was just like, "Oh my God. Oh my God."

You're like, "Damn, did I make that? Shit."

Oh my God.

"I guess I did."

I'm terrible. I-

But, but, but did you have, like, a, did you have, like, a Marie Kondo, you know, ceremony at all?

That's what I was telling myself. I was like, "Thank you for your service. Thank you for your service."

[laughs]

"Thank you for your service."Get out of here. Get out of my life.

Mm.

Stop weighing me down like a cinder block.

So do you feel, do you feel, d- now do you feel lighter-

Yes

... today? You do.

But then at, at the same time, like, I even just, just did the same thing to this bookshelf that's in, that's in, like, this working area that I have here at the house, where I was, like, looking at it and I was like, "I have all these, like, my favorite Nikes on the shelf." And I'm like, "You're a grown-ass man. Get those fucking Nikes off the shelf," you know?

[laughs]

Like, and but, but there is, like, something to that nostalgia, like, where I, like, drew that initial passion from that I love so much. But I'm like, "Get it out of here." Like, "You're not a kid anymore," you know? "Get it all out of here."

Dude, Tru, I hear this every fucking day. Do you know how many times-

Dude

... I've heard about my sticker box and how it needs to go?

[laughs]

I'm like, "Alex, every cool guy you've ever met has a sticker box. I hate to tell you, but it's p- it's also part of-

But it's a part of it

... it's part of it

... right? Like, that's cool, right?

[laughs]

Like, like there's nothing cooler to me than, like, someone who's, like, passionate about, like, something that's could be nerdy to somebody else, right? And you've got the courage to be fucking nerdy-

Sure

... about your sticker box, and I've got the courage to be nerby- nervous nerdy about, like, my Robotech or whatever the hell it is. Then I'm like, be passionately nerdy about that stuff. At the same time, it's like I don't need to look at it all the time, you know what I'm saying?

Mm.

That, no, that's... I, I think there's a fi- I, 'cause I did some storage space, uh, hunting this weekend as well, and-

Yup.

Did you uncover some gens?

[laughs] Yup. Uh, I uncovered stuff. I mean, I think that, like, I have... I, I'm trying to consolidate it all into one place because the T-shirt, you know, the John Mayer Tour '04 crew T-shirt, I don't need that in daily rotation.

Yeah.

But the Wil- the Wilco AM shirt I do.

Yes.

You know? So it's, it's about choosing where things live-

Yeah

... and then pruning what maybe you don't need.

Mm-hmm.

But I feel like that-

You have your flagship store, and then you can kind of piece things out at different-

[laughs] Yes

... locations as you need them.

Now, did you prune Mayer? Do you donate Mayer? Or do you keep Mayer-

No, Mayer stays

... in a box in a storage unit?

No, Mayer stays in a box.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I, I think that at some point my T-shirts are the only legacy I'm going to have.

Same.

So I need to kind of main- And also some of it is, like, at this point it's gotten so niche online that I can't believe other people like what I li- like, I can't believe there's a demand for it the way that there is.

Yeah.

Um-

That's why we have to hold onto everything, guys, 'cause you never know-

[laughs]

... what's gonna hit.

Exactly. Exactly.

Exactly.

But that's, doesn't, like, that point of view right there where it's like, "Ah, I can't believe other people are into, like, what I'm into," like, that was my first realization when I moved to New York. 'Cause, like, I was, you know, into, like, into all that s- shit and this, and all the stuff I'm into now then, you know, and when I was, like, a young kid. But I'm like, maybe, like... I was like a lot of these people aren't into what I'm into. And I go to New York, and I'm like, "Wait a minute, a lot of people are into what I'm into."

Every single person. [laughs]

Like, this is insane.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I thought I was the only guy who liked Pinback, but no.

[laughs]

Yeah.

We're all...

Wait a fucking second. Hold on.

Like, when you, when you make something and, and you're like, okay, you're out there l- and you're making something, you're like, "All right, chances are if I like this, you know, maybe, maybe five or six other people will like this too, hopefully."

Every time I go to the doctor, I walk out of that bitch feeling dumb. I got no real info. This guy in a white coat just say, "You're fine," you know, "Drink more water."

He knows how to charge my copay.

Exactly. As if-

That's about it

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[laughs]

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What is Revolve, Man, Jason? It's... Oh, funny you ask.

What's a Revolve, Man?

It's a r- [laughs] a place where guys who care about how they look go to shop. Revolve, Man is stocked with only the elevated essentials and trend-forward styles from brands like Polo, Ralph Lauren, Solomon, Fear of God essentials for our hoopers out there, and more. It's not fast fashion, and it's not stuffy. It's the sweet spot between looking intentional and not looking like you tried too hard. That's what we're all trying to accomplish out here, Jason. New arrivals drop twice a week with free two-day shipping and next-day options. Plus, returns are genuinely easy.

Genuinely, yeah. It's one of those things we're all busy. Let's say we got an important dinner coming up at the end of the week. It's Tuesday. You're working every single day. You don't have time to go shopping and try clothes on and blah, blah, blah, or even just browse. You know, Revolve, it's all there. It's all curated for what you want, and then you click buy, you go to bed. Couple days later, that shows up in packaging that's a little nicer than the, the other places you're buying clothes from, and you've got a nice look for the big night out. And then you're like, "Wait a minute, I don't even have to return this because I enjoy this clothing and I wanna wear it again another time," versus all those dumb other websites. So whether it's a big night out, a wedding, a trip, or you just need something last-minute that actually works, Revolve, Man always has it. Go to revolveman.com/howlong to shop and use code HOWLONG for 15% off your order, free two-day shipping, easy returns. It just makes everything easier. That is revolve.com/howlong and use the promo code HOWLONG to get 15% off your entire order. Offer ends soon. Don't sleep on it. And you don't need clothes, too. You can get just, you know, a cool candle or an incense gift for a baby shower, whatever it is. Revolve.com/howlongWell, they, I mean, that, everyone says that all the time, and it's a dumb cliche for a reason, is like you, you have to just make and do stuff that you are into, and then hope to God that other people are as well. That's the only way to-

Totally

... you know, actually have success and not hate your life.

It's totally, actually have success doing something creative for a living, right? Like-

Mm-hmm

... because I think that, I think that-

Yeah, for sure

... think about all of like the wonderfully brilliant creative people that you know that just like struggle with it a little bit, right, in the real life, and trying to like make ends meet. But they create these amazing things, whether it's music or art or photography, whatever it is.

TV writers, whatever it could be.

Oh, whatever it can be. [laughs] Yeah.

I say this all the time, Aaron. I say this all the time, that it's, it's sorta like there's an audience for everything these days. It just depends on how big the audience is-

Totally

... is how I feel. The, 'cause there's too much output.

Yep. And then, but, and then also the timing of everything, right? It's like, it's like you could be the best in the world and if the timing is wrong by like a hair, that wave is just gonna crash right over you and no one's ever gonna know that you existed until someone finds like a bunch of your photographs in a shoe ba- shoebox in an attic sometime 50 years from now.

[laughs] There's nothing worse than being a band's band or a photographer's photographer or a, you know, like-

But that's what the internet wants you to be, right? This is the perfect example of like when I did that Zara thing, right?

Yeah.

I'm like, I know that I'm gonna get grief for this a little bit, right? I'm gonna be challenged by people on this. You have your own little line-

So you waited until 2026 where everyone just says, "Get the bag, king"-

[laughs]

[laughs]

... versus saying sellout.

Yo.

Smart move.

Smart move. They approached me in '98, but I kinda held off.

[laughs]

All I'm saying is like, yo, they were amazing to work with and we made some awesome stuff and they were super open about it. And they're super creative. Their marketing team's amazing. Like, the design teams are incredible. Um, but then y- you know, it's like the trolls come out, man, and they're like, the things that people DM you are absolutely wild.

[laughs]

Wild what I read in my DMs.

You got a couple, you got an example or two, Aaron? Come on.

I mean, I, as a, I was, I wanted to talk to you about Argyle, but you're saying people were coming in a little more aggressive than that maybe.

Oh my God, man.

[laughs]

So, so I mean, I'll paraphrase for you, Jason, right? Like I could, I-

Mm-hmm

... I try to delete those things like right away, you know? Because I'm like I don't even wanna like clog up my brain with that. And if I said that it didn't negatively impact me and like, and like-

Yeah

... you're like, "Ouch, man," like that would be a lie, you know? Because it's like-

Yeah

... your work and it's like you're trying to make a living doing what you love to do. And in order to do that, I cobble together like a bunch-

Mm

... of different things, right?

Ironically, you, sorry to interrupt, you saying ouch right there is often the best response to those things. It r-

Oof. [laughs]

It debases them. No, I mean, I've been doing it for years.

It's true.

If somebody says me, sends me a mean comment or a message or whatever, a reply, hit 'em with the ouch. 99% of the time they hat in hand start apologizing. They're your biggest fan.

Yeah.

You know?

Speak for yourself-

Yeah

... guys.

[laughs]

You guys are bigger gu- bigger men than I am. I got one the other day that was just, "Your collar looks stupid"-

[laughs]

... and I just scrolled on the guy's page until I saw a picture of him and screenshot it and just sent him the picture of himself.

[laughs]

And I didn't get a response.

[laughs]

And I said, "I think we, I think we're done here, chief."

But-

But you're right, that, the ouch is, is I think the right reaction and the right response, I really do.

Yeah.

[laughs]

I actually like that. Like I, I just don't respond to any of 'em, right? Um, but-

I can't help myself

... but, but you know, like I get like sellout, like, you know, this-

Mm-hmm

... you're trash, like whatever, and you're just like this is nuts. That and just like a lot of salacious DMs from dudes, man.

Oh.

Yeah.

Wild.

Well, how many, I mean, you did post a photo-

Wild

... of your bulge on, on the grid, bro.

You're saying, you're saying, you're saying hog inquiries from men or you're saying clothing related?

I'm saying like thirsty DMs from dudes.

[laughs]

I'm like there's like zero women in the DMs and all dudes, man.

Yeah, welcome to the club, bro. That's how I, that's, that's when you know you've made it. [laughs] That's when you know, that's-

But also literally when you are post- posting photos of your bulge on, on the grid, you are asking for it. Not to get, you know-

Look, there's, there's a bulge or two, buddy-

[laughs]

... but you can't help that.

[laughs] You're like, "Bro, the pants fit perfect. It's a you problem."

Yeah.

I don't know what the fuck you want me to do.

I w- I wish there were pants in the frame.

[laughs] Yeah.

I wish there were pants in the frame.

[laughs] Yeah.

It was just nothing but the skims.

Yep.

I, I, yeah-

Yep

... God damn it.

I'll take that. Ouch.

But sh-

But the, yeah, I-

Ouch

... look, well, well the next time you get a DM like that just tell Scott Sternberg that we say hi, okay?

[laughs]

Yeah, that's all you gotta do. That's all you gotta do.

[laughs]

Is the, is the, okay, so the Zara thing, I, I, I feel like if you've been doing this for as long as you've been doing it, that, and you seem like a guy from what I see, I, I mean, we've been friends for a long time, but as a, as a, a observer, you seem like a guy that takes the bull by the, you're just like, "You know what? If I wanna do it, I'm gonna do it."

100%, dude.

And I, I think, I, but I think that like that to me is even, even if you're a casual observer, that's what makes the Zara thing sorta make sense. It's like, oh, that's a different challenge. I'll just try it. What, what's the worst that could happen?

100%, man. And it's like, look, I've done Club Monaco. I worked on Madewell, worked on Abercrombie. So it's like those are different puzzles to solve at a different scale, right?

Yeah.

So when you, when you are working on a project like that, there's like so many ways that you can go into that environment, and it can be bad or it can be incredible and you can learn a ton from these folks. It's like playing music. Like if I could play music I would assume, I can't play music, but like if you're just like I'm gonna pick up my guitar and I'm gonna go play with this band for a while, and that band shreds, you're like this is amazing, right? Like I get to just-

[laughs]

... get on stage and like play live music with these people. That's what I l- that's what it feels like to me. So when I'm going there, I go to Spain and I work with these people, I get to like play live music with them, and then I'll fly to London and play live music with Nick for Studio Nicholson. And then do the same thing with Drake's, and then come home and like play some solo stuff here, you know?

[laughs]

And just like dick around in the studio.

[laughs]

I'm actually working on my solo album, babe. If you could just quiet down out there.

Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, yeah.

I see what you mean. No, I see what you mean, though. That may, I mean, I think that really does. I, I just feel like you've, you've, how do you think you're able to get away with it all?

I don't care, Chris.

You don't care. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't care. You know? Like if I were to care about like-... what everyone thinks and what everyone sa- not that everyone cares, 'cause on- only like, only like four people talk shit anyway, right?

Sure.

No one gives a shit. Like, in the whole scheme of things, in the broad spectrum of things, it doesn't mean anything, so I'm gonna do whatever feels fulfilling and, like, inspirational and, like, purpose-driven, as sad as that sounds, right? Like, my purpose is this. Like, I love it, and I can't help it. I wish my purpose was, like, doing something more philanthropic or, like, more creative or whatever, but it's not. It's this. Like, I love it. I love doing it. I love doing it with people who love doing it. So I'm just gonna do that, man, and I just don't-

No, no, I mean, I-

... give a shit.

No, I think it's, I think it's enviable, and I think that, I just think that the, that is un- it, it's rare in this business, I would say-

Mm

... to sort of be able to be, like, an independent operator that can dip in it, in and out. But I mean, I think, I, I think this is what I like about J.Crew. It's a similar thing, where it's like you realize these things are huge.

Yeah, man.

And it's like making any sort of impact with something like that is a different scale-

Yeah

... than most things.

Yeah.

When there's 300 stores or whatever, it's like, oh, this is a whole different ballgame, and Zara's that-

Yes

... in a lot of ways.

But you know what? It's like, did you ever read that book Ender's Game when you were a kid? This is also super nerdy. This is nerdy.

Oh, I... Yeah, everybody read that book.

Right?

Yeah.

Everyone read that book, right?

Yeah.

So-

I think you might have. I think you had to maybe.

It may be. Maybe. I don't know. I never had to in high school. When I was, like, a freshman in college, like, someone gave it to me, and I, like, read it, and, and I was like, "That's, that's kind of, like, how I approach, like, all these, these products at different scales," right? Where you can, like... You just treat it like practice, man. Like, if-

Yeah

... you're, if... Saying play loose, and just play loose, and, like, don't think about the scale or the 300 stores or the global DTC or, like, the campaign, and as soon as you shoot something, then you put it up, and you put it out in the world, and then people are free to interpret it however they want. Some of them, some people love it. Some people hate it. Some people critique your work. Some people say you're copying other people. Some say you're... And you're just like, "Man, all I do is, like, try to go in there and do the best job that I can do." And of course you're like a cultural sponge, and you soak up all the shit around you, because you want it to be relevant to people that are shopping it, you know? So I, I just treat it like practice, man. I don't... Like, the scale thing doesn't bother me.

The other thing that I think is interesting is that you sort of, more than a lot of people, I think you're selling... I think men are buying the clothes 'cause they want to look like you, because you make it look cool, and that's how, that's part of the selling point, is that, like, you're kinda the guy wearing it.

Yeah.

And I think that's powerful, but can also-

It's like a reverse A$AP Rocky.

[laughs] Yeah, yeah, but I think that's powerful and crazy, but I also, I also, like, uh, like, that's just not possible. Do you know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

Like, I... There's plenty of swaggy people that I know, and I could buy the exact same clothes-

Same, dude

... that they're wearing and put it on, and it ain't gonna look cool on me.

Same.

A lot of people buy, buy The Row to look like Mary-Kate and Ashley, and-

Doesn't

... Airport Fit ain't hitting me, brother.

No, no.

I mean, it doesn't, but I think that you've, you've figured out a way to really sell it in that, in that sort of, in that sort of way, and I think it's really interesting 'cause men, I think, don't, aren't usually... Like, women are sort of used to that. Like, the culture is a little set up a little bit more for that in some ways, like, as far as, like, like a, let's say a quote-unquote influencer and their Shop My Links and that whole-

Mm-hmm

... game is very set up.

"Oh, where'd you get that? Oh, I like that. That's cute."

Yeah, yeah.

I already-

Men-

Men are like, "You already have that? I could never have it. I'm never gonna buy it."

Y- yeah, it's a different, it's a different thing, and I think you... I don't... I just think it's interesting that it's worked, you know-

Yeah

... as, as far as I can tell for you.

You know, I think it's like, um... You know, I was talking to a friend yesterday, and I was talking to Ruba yesterday. You know, do you guys know Ruba?

Mm.

Um, and, and I had a great conversation with her and, uh, and, and, you know, she's very smart, and, and I was inspired by her. Y- you know, there are a lot of people that are, like, buzzy, right? That are cool and that, that when they do collections with people, they do collections on their own, it gets, like, a lot of love from a press standpoint, you know? Like, we didn't do any press from that, for that Zara thing at all. We didn't do any press for that. And, like, I'm not buzzy. I'm not cool. I'm not hype. I'm not, I'm like-

That all changes-

... none of those things

... after this interview, brother. That all changes today.

I've... Yeah, yeah.

[laughs]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Better change your address, big dog.

Uh-huh. [laughs]

Strap a rocket to your ass. But I'm like, I'm, I'm not cool, so... But, but what I'd like to do is make stuff that's easy for people, and I'm like, why is that uncool? Like, why, why is that, um... I don't know, man. I'm like, I just like to make nice, easy stuff for like... So that someone can wear it and, like, feel good about themselves-

No, I think in theory-

... and feel better about themselves

... I think... No, I think in theory you're right. Like, it's in, in theory-

But in reality-

... it's all, it, it all makes sense, but in reality I think that... I just find that men, I, I think men started shopping that way in very recent history.

Yeah.

I think that, I think that's how... Like, I think, I think men would be like, "That, that sweater's cool. I want it," whereas women would often be like, "That looks good on the model. That'll look good on me," if that makes sense.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like, I think it's a little bit of a different sort of, like, mental gymnastics to get them to buy.

Yeah.

But with what's the feedback... So what's the feedback been on your own stuff? Is it just like, "I love this, but it's too expensive," 'cause that's what everybody says about everything?

[laughs]

Well, no, no. We're actually doing what we wanna do, and people are responding to stuff that I actually didn't think they would respond to. They're responding to, like, the dressier stuff. Like, when we do, like, our suits and stuff, like, that's what really moves, and, like, our pants really move.

Yeah.

Um, and I wasn't really anticipating that, but that's cool for me. Like, that's more exciting for me. The thing about it is, right, when you start your own thing from scratch, we don't take any money from anybody, right? Like, we s- we threw in a little couple bucks to begin with, and we're working on cash flow. So, like, that's super inhibitive, right? Like, I, all I can do is cut what I'm paying for and, and-

Yeah, yeah, yeah

... cut... Like, when we get paid from the stuff we sell, that goes to the vendors to pay for the garments that we just cut, and that goes to buy more fabricAnd it's like if you don't love doing that, it is the worst way to try to make money, man. You know? Like, it is just like-

[laughs] Yeah.

Like, there's way easier ways. Like, a- and if I was smart in that way, I'd probably do those, but I'm not. Like, I just do this because I love it, and I can't really do anything else.

No, but I think you, I think you kn- you, you're able to make money doing it other places-

Yeah

... and you can do what you want when you want-

Yes

... in other ways. I think that's-

Yeah

... the dream. That's the dream.

You, you, yeah, you, you sell a, a pair of plain pants that are $400-

Yes

... and it doesn't have a luxury brand name attached to it, and you're-

No

... curr- currently sold out of them.

Yes.

That, I mean, that's the thing.

Exactly.

Like, who gives a, like, that, who gives a fuck then?

You know?

If that's it, that's it.

And, and I think when you're s- you know, it's so simple and so regular and normal, here's your very basic high-quality clothing, some formal, some work wear.

Yep.

No luxury brand name attached to it, no brick-and-mortar.

No.

Even though it seems real normal to you, in the, you know, to the eyes of the rest of the world, it's a, a strange concept to grasp. You know what I mean?

Yeah, totally. You know, and, and, you know, like, when we were making it, right, like, I was like, "I just want really beautiful work wear that's, like, I can get away with if I have to go to a meeting or go to dinner or something. I just wanna make, like, a dressy version of that, and I don't wanna think too hard about it. And I'm not gonna try to add something to it to make it look different than something else if it doesn't need it."

Mm-hmm.

Right? Um-

Mm-hmm

... and, and when I'm developing the fabrics for it, it's like we'll, we'll make proprietary fabrics in Italy, and it's like, cool, I work hard all the time, but I wanna develop, like, a two-ply canvas out of Italy that feels like luxury, that feels dressy, that I can beat the shit out of, and that will, like, kinda mold to my body. And then that I don't get from a lot of other places because, you know, smaller brands I find that, like, you buy something and then you can't buy it again, right? And then I'm like, "Damn, I wish I bought three pairs of that thing." And when I shop like the bigger brands, I'm like, "Oh-"

Yeah, that's my, that's my fucking issue with Nike, so, uh, let's not, let's not leave it to the small brands.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Let's, let's-

100%. 100%, I think-

Yeah, but also, Aaron, you could take that one pair of pants that you'll never be able to buy again, but you have the skills to take it apart, make a pattern out of it, and then steal that, uh, design, right?

There you go, 100%.

[laughs]

100%, that's how the s- the whole thing works.

Just, just be clear, I steal from small brands as much as I can.

[laughs]

I wanna be very upfront.

What happens is-

It's very important

... that people will s- will then, like, buck out on the fabric, or, like, they'll buck out on the make, and, like, they'll make that same thing. They'll rip the pattern and then they'll scrimp, and it's like this does not feel the same, and it does not look the same-

Mm-hmm

... and it does not drape the same, and it does not wear the same. So, like, a lot of my, the stuff that I make is, like, inside baseball for people that give a shit about that stuff right now, you know?

Yeah.

And, and, you know, it's like we buy a little bit more every time, and we sell a little bit more every time.

Yeah, yeah.

So-

I mean-

... that's, that's how we're doing it

... that is, that is a classic model. [laughs] Wait, man

I stole it from everybody that came before me.

Sure. [laughs]

Literally everybody.

We all do.

Of course.

That's it. Are you kidding me?

Yeah.

Um, I, I was hanging out with my mom, um, over Christmas. We went to South Coast Plaza, a shopping mall in Orange County.

Mm.

And, and we were talking about how over the years it's become less and less fun to, like, Christmas shop for people. Everything is all online and blah, blah, blah. And my mom said, quote-unquote, "Shopping used to be fun."

Mm-hmm.

And I was like, "Damn, that's kind of a bar," you know? So-

Yeah

... w- what do you think that we can do to make shopping fun again?

Do... [laughs] Make it fun again, man.

[laughs]

I don't know. You know, like, I think first of all, like, you gotta be someone that likes to do that stuff. Like, I'm a picker, and I like to shop at, like... You know, I like to shop with, like, smaller people, and I like to shop, you know, vintage stores where people, like, work really hard on their selection and... Like, that's what I like to give to people, too, are, like, are those things, or support smaller brands, or give someone, like, if I have a couple things in the studio, like, I'll send them some of my stuff. I think... I, I, I don't know, man. I'm, I'm all about, like, you know, if you go into this little store and, and, and this, and there's someone there that, like, really loves that stuff, that to me is the way that it, that it's fun, you know? Like, I get really stressed out about the Christmas shopping thing because it's just like Hungry Hungry Hippos, isn't it? It's just like-

Mm

... grab, grab, grab, grab, grab, grab, grab, and I gotta grab this for them, and I gotta grab that. And you're, like, impulsively buying shit for people without even, like, really thinking it through, like, what they want or why would they want it. Like, I'm still, I'm still in the camp of like, "Man, make me a handmade card." Like, that's the way to my heart, you know? Just, like... So, so that doesn't a- answer the question about making shopping fun again, I think.

Mm.

I think, uh... I don't know. I don't know the answer to that one, dude.

Put it on Polymarket and make it, make it bettable.

[laughs]

That's how it's gonna do it.

Bettable.

I think it's just changed.

[laughs]

But I think it's just changed because I don't think people want, I don't think people want to interact with each other anymore.

What a bummer.

And I think before-

Yeah

... you didn't have a choice. Like, if you wanted a pair of jeans, you had to go have a conversation with somebody-

Totally

... about getting those jeans, you know? And now you can just take a couple swings online, and buy five, and send four back that don't fit, and you're-

Totally

... you know, you're done. I, I think it's, it's just not-

To me, it feels similar to weddings, how weddings used to be more fun, and now they're, you know... And you would, like, you used to go Christmas shopping. You'd go to the mall. It's super busy. You grab a pair of Isotoner gloves or, you know, a dumb fragrance and-

Ben Marino's on the package. It's gotta be good.

[laughs]

Gotta be good.

You used to go to a, a, a wedding would be at a, a dumb restaurant. The band would suck. The food would suck. Everyone had a great time. And now-

Yep

... we have to get a destination location, and that's the n- not, that's the wrong arborist, and you have to get this, and this, and this, and this.

Wild.

It's sick.

And no one's having fun. No one's having-

Gotta go on the Gram, man. That's when it stays on the grid.

You know I haven't had fun in 15 years. I mean, that's just what it is. I don't know-

No one's having fun anymore

... I don't know what that feels like.

What was the catalyst? When did you stop having fun, Aaron?

Well, actually, I guess it's been nine years, so the last time I did cocaine-

Yeah. [laughs]

[laughs]

... is the real... I mean, let's, let's keep it hon- let's keep it real.

When's the last time I had fun? Let me open up my sobriety app and, uh-

Yeah, literally

Yeah, exactly, exactly

... let me look at the day count here. I got the hours.

[laughs]

No, I think that the-

Really? Yeah

... I think that people are just not focused. I think fun just doesn't mean what it used to. Like, I think the actual meaning of the word has changed for people-

It is

... is the rea- is, is what I think. Like, I think that, like-

Mm

... fun to us in our generation, I think we attach to, like, socializing in some way.

Mm-hmm.

And I think fun for a younger generation is, like, waiting in line for an hour for a matcha and a donut-

Wild

... is, like, fun.

Wild.

You know, whereas, like, we would think about, like, oh, we went to this bar and we had the best time, or we went to this show and had the best time, you know?

Mm-hmm.

It's like, or a trip or whatever. I mean, I think the trip thing still rings true to an extent.

Yeah.

Um-

Yeah

... I think it's different.

And I do have an a- like, I do have an answer. Like, I think, like, the place where I found shopping fun was TokyoRight? And you could go into, like, a little store there, find, like, even if I was just, like, doing clothing or vintage, whatever, like, the way that they care about your experience when you're in their shop is on a completely different level than, like, anywhere you go, you know? Like, if I go into, like, a Louis Vuitton or if I go into, like, a Dior, if I go into, like a... Which I d- I don't, 'cause it's just not my bag. But, like, if I go in-

Get your money out, player. You're sa-

[laughs]

You don't, you ain't paying no taxes out there. Come on, bro.

2026, that's gonna change, Aaron. I feel good about you this year. [laughs]

If I go into these stores, they don't... It's like this, the experience isn't special, you know? Like-

No, it sucks

... it sucks. And I'm like, wait a minute, the product isn't really that amazing either, so why, w- why?

I just told y- I mean, I'm writing about my first time in Tokyo literally this morning.

Yeah.

And the one experience I had there, I found the shopping to be overwhelming, but I went to this, like, glasses store-

Mm

... that's all d- all dead stock, and they sort of just look at your face and decide what they should bring you.

Sick.

And then they cut the le-

That's omakase, bro.

Yeah, it's omakase. They cut the lenses on site, and you leave with whatever color you want, the whole thing. And I was like-

Yeah

... this is as good as it gets. Like, I would've paid whatever it cost.

As good as it gets.

Like, I, I, th-

Yeah

... you don't look at, they don't tell you the pri- It was, it was all-

Mm

... gonna be a surprise, but I was so-

Yeah

... I was so in.

But you're cool with that-

So in

... because it's, like, tailored and made experience for you.

Yeah. Whereas if you go, if you go to Prada and you wanna buy a $6,000 Carhartt jacket, they follow you around like a crook with an iPad.

100%.

It's just not fun.

100%.

It's not f- it's not fun, you know? It's not fun.

After you're done waiting in the line for an hour.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just, I think that the-

Yeah

... the f- the sort of combination of exclusivity and, like, it being for, everything being for a picture and not for the actual thing, it's a real, it's a real-

Mm-hmm

... uh, force of evil, I think, when combined.

Yeah.

I gu- I guess maybe signaling wealth used to be more fun-

Yeah

... before social media.

Yeah. [laughs] It's weaponized now, isn't it?

Now it's just a job.

Now it's just like-

Yeah, it's weaponized.

That's why I keep all my shit low. I, I keep the garage in Atlanta. I don't take, no one can take pictures.

[laughs]

It's kinda my thing. Like, the helicopter, I land down the street. I don't land-

Yeah

... on my own building.

Yeah, yeah. You keep that away.

Yeah.

You keep that a couple blocks away.

That's why Drake painted his plane like clouds, so you couldn't see it-

Exactly

... his mark.

Exactly. [laughs]

Yeah, he was a we- he was actually super ahead of his time in that way.

Yeah, man.

So, um, since, since we do have a, uh, an elder fashion king on the pod on today of days, how do you feel about Will Welch stepping down from GQ after 19 years? Are you in talks with Conde Nast, et cetera, et cetera?

Wow, I think that, like, um, I think good for him, right? I think 19 years is a long run. That's a good stretch, man. I think it's, like, time to shake the cage a little bit and get, like, the cobwebs out of your head and, like-

Mm

... and, like, r- ride some fresh snow on a different part of a mountain, you know?

[laughs]

I think that that makes you feel better.

I just realized, I was like, 19 years. I, I said this on the intro. I was like, "I've never done anything for that long."

Yeah.

That's unreal to do something-

Unreal

... that long.

And that, that is a long stretch. I remember my first job in fashion, my dad was like, you know, "Okay," you know, "get ready to s- you know, you're gonna be there for about 30, 35 years. Buckle down."

[laughs]

"Get your, like, you know, pension going." And I'm like-

Mm-hmm

... "Pop, this is not like that, man. This is not like that."

Will was one year short of getting the Rolex. So close.

[laughs]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

The, wow, the Rolex-

Well, hey

... the Rolex with the, the Conde Nast lockup, like the dominoes. You know what I mean?

It's happening. Uh-huh.

That could be, that could be big. Yeah, I think that, uh, having a job for that long is impressive no matter what it is. It's really crazy.

And, but I also think it's, like, great that he's moving on because I think personally for him, you know, it's like y- you gotta just shake it up, man, and, like, be nervous again-

Yeah

... and, like, be out of your depth again-

Mm

... and be uncomfortable again. And, like, all those things are, like, anxiety-inducing, but, like, at the same time, that's a rush, man, and, like, you gotta, you gotta do that.

Yeah.

You gotta do that. Um-

Mm

... so good for him.

Knock the cobwebs around.

You know? So-

It's like when I DJ on a rotary mixer, I totally get it, bro. [laughs]

What's your, what's your... Yeah.

Yeah.

What's your, what's your, what are your odds? Whose odds are, who are you laying odds on right now?

Of, of who's gonna replace him?

I mean, it ha- for me, it's gotta be Sam.

That's what I said. I texted him this morning. He did not text me back.

He's in Australia. He's in Australia, to be fair, so the, the time difference-

Okay, cool

... is, is severe.

I texted him, but I was like, amazing for Will, respect to Will. Is this good for Sam, you know?

Yeah, I mean, I think Sam's the gu- I think, I don't know. I just feel like there's, there's, uh, there's always... I don't know if these places have, like, succession plans like they used to.

Yeah.

You know, you know what I mean? 'Cause it's just different. Like, people jump around so much. But, like, I think, like, s- I mean, Sam's been there s- forever.

Yeah.

You know, Sam's been there, in Sam, for Sam's age, he's been there 19 years. [laughs]

Yeah, exactly.

[laughs]

In Sam years.

But al- but also-

In Sam years, it's, it's, it's fucking 19 years

... over, over the last couple of years as, you know, half of the GQ Men of the Year are Sydney Sweeney-

Yeah

... uh, et cetera, is there a chance where we need to move away from a white, T man in this position and get, you know, shake things up in 2026, get maybe a female in there?

No.

You know, I don't, I, I don't know.

[laughs]

I agree with you, Chris.

No.

Man, I'm like-

It's, it's literally Gentlemen's Quarterly

... you know, it's fine. So dudes mag-

It's literally Gentlemen's Quarterly.

Yeah, it's a fine to be a man in a men's magazine and, like, tell other men, like, yeah, this is, you know-

I'm not necessarily asking your personal opinions on it, more so do you think it-

No

... could be s- a realistic thing that happens in, in-

No.

Okay.

I, I mean, I, I mean-

I don't know

... okay

... realistic doesn't mean anything anymore either, so, you know, somebody could just pull somebody-

Anything, anything's a possibility, but-

Yeah, anything's a possibility if it, if it's... Also, I mean, this stuff gets so political. It's like there's so many moving parts that we could never understand as, as outsiders that-

Yeah

... it's like it's beyond our-

But Chris, can we get a comment from you? No one has, no one has contacted you about this position?

Yeah, right. Yeah, right. [laughs]

Oh.

No one contacts me about any jobs. That, that, that ain't how it works. That ain't how it works. I, I have to make contact myself.

Okay. You're outbound? Okay.

I'm, it's more of an outbound situation. [laughs]

So did, did Wintour get the Edible Arrangements this morning then?

Yeah, definitely, of course. I sent an orchid over, a living being, a living, breathing f- f- plant-

[laughs]

... is more... 'Cause I want her to think of me every time she looks over to the window, you know?

Just wanna let you know I'm here. I'm here if you need anything.

I mean, I do think, I do think it's so... I j- I don't know, man. I'm just, maybe I'm in the minority, but I think it's so cool that she's-... fucking the boss still. Like, I think it's so, I think it's great

She's goat, man. She's the best.

She's the goat. Like, I'd just be, I'd just be like, "This is my shit. You're gonna have to pry this out of my cold, dead hands," is-

Yeah

... we need more of that. I feel like-

Look at Jerry and Ralph, still at the helm of Polo.

Yeah. Yeah

You know? It's like, that's like, the, you know, it's fu- you know, like, I got a lot of friends that I went to college with, and it's like they are super smart, a lot of them are, like, very successful, and it's like there's this, there's this very, like n- like tr- this, this consistent trajectory with a lot of them, which is, like, get married, have kids, have this job. You have this job for a long time, and it's like your eye is on the prize of retirement, right? And then you retire, and then you get to, like, have all this fun 'cause you've stashed all these-

Mm

... you know, like, all your, your wealth or whatever. But-

Except you, except you decided maybe I'll put the Christmas lights up this year, then you fall off a ladder, and now you're done, right?

Yo.

That's the problem

Facts. And I don't, you know, it's like I don't-

You've been working your whole life to get that retirement fund, but then-

You stick a fork in a socket and whatever, you know?

Or even, even if you aren't doing anything dangerous, just being 65-

Yeah, exactly

... you know, what are, what are you really gonna do besides take a nap and watch golf?

Yeah.

Look, if I wanna go play 18 with the homies, [laughs] you best believe I'm doing that whenever the fuck I want. Am I right, fellas?

Mm. Yeah.

Yeah.

That's why I don't wait.

Yeah.

That's why I don't wait.

Yeah.

I'm gonna start doing it right now.

Yeah. [laughs]

It's awesome.

Yeah. Yeah.

I watch whatever I want on TV.

Yeah.

I don't even care what my wife says.

[laughs] Sookie.

But, like, look at, look at Giorgio Armani at the helm of Armani until he literally died on the throne.

I think it's so cool. I think it's so cool.

I think it's so cool.

So why is it cool if the fashion houses do it, but not, not President Trump? How come n-

[laughs]

How come, how come Joe Biden is too old?

Speak for yourself.

How come Nancy Pelosi's too old, guys? What's up?

I think that, I think that the, uh, the, uh, stakes are different in those situations, but I, you know-

The, I was at the, the judge on the Maduro trial that's happening around the corner from your house-

92

... 92 years old

92 years old. Oh my gosh. Now, look, some of that cognitive ability has to be slipping at that stage. Has to be slipping.

[laughs] No.

I don't care-

He's gonna deliver the, he's gonna deliver, he's gonna have doo-doo in his diaper while he's-

You guys don't know, you guys don't know what these guy... These guys are sharp.

[laughs]

Sh- look, I hear you. Like, say, say you're, say you're 70, you know, say you're 77 years old. My parents are 77 years old. Sharp.

Yeah.

Sharp.

All things considered, sharp.

All things considered, sharp. But I'm like, are they as sharp as they were when they were 60? Are they as sharp as they were when they were 50? Or are they as sharp as they were when they were 40?

Mm.

Like, you know, my dad is, like, way sharper than I ever was still, but I'm like, you know, as, like, as you get, uh, my, uh, yeah-

Things are happening to him that he's not... You know, when you're that age, you're like, "Oh, I forgot. Left the keys in the front door again."

100%. [laughs]

Jason, you, you know what? You want some 32-year-old they/them judge in there making decisions? You need some life experience. You know what I'm saying?

There's a wide spectrum between barista and 92-year-old-

Exactly. [laughs]

Nah, you need, you... No, no. 92. Well, I mean, any government job that you, the only way to get fired is to die is bad. That, I think that's a pretty, [laughs] I think that everybody can agree.

Yeah.

If, if you are too old to drive a car, maybe you shouldn't be making these large-

Luckily, our tax dollars, I'm sure-

... crazy decisions

... pay for a driver. You know what I mean? But yeah, in theory-

Yeah

... in theory, you're right.

I think we need to gamify-

That's true

... the judicial system to keep it relevant, you know?

Keep, let's have fun with it.

There we go.

Mix, mix it up.

Let's have fun with it.

You know, I'd like to see some guys from TV in there. You know how long, if you played a judge on TV for more than 10 seasons, let's give you a shot at the big leagues. Let's give you a shot at the real world.

Uh, I think that, that does happen in-

I beg of you

... real life politics, unfortunately.

I mean, s- yeah, you're right. Arnold Schwarzenegger is, you're right.

Ronny Reagan.

That, that's true.

Zelensky.

Have you guys ever been to court for anything?

Court?

Court?

Mm.

Oh, yeah. I've been to-

Court. [laughs]

... I've been to court several times. Not, not since I was, you know, 18.

Yeah, I've been a few times.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like, like that to me, right, like a gavel banging and sending you some place after court where you can't wear your own clothes and have to live in a cell, that to me is like, I'll have nightmares about that shit. Like, I have, I, like, I'm paranoid about someone coming to my house and arresting me for something that I have no idea what I've done. Like, I'm like sp-

I like that you specified wearing, not wearing your own clothes.

[laughs]

That's what you're worried about. Like, I'm like, "I can't. This mother- this motherfucker's policing when I pee." [laughs]

And my atelier will not be available to me, and that is-

"Judge, do you not understand that these are single pleats? Judge, I don't think you understand." [laughs]

That's dry clean only.

[laughs]

Okay. So, so you have the-

Hey, man

... you have the paranoid conscious going on. What, what do you-

Oh

... when you have this daydream fantasy, is it, you know, is it tax stuff? Is it a DUI? That time you hit a kid and kept going, is it finally gonna catch up to you? What is it?

The things that catch up to me, but I'm like, "I don't know what I've done that would catch up to me." And yes, the tax stuff. I actually just texted my tax person this morning.

[laughs]

And I was like, "I need this to happen at this time because I don't wanna go to prison."

[laughs]

Like, I like put that in the email to-

Covering your tracks

... my accountant.

You're covering your tracks.

Yes. I'm like-

I told them I didn't wanna go to jail. You can see it right here on the text message. I told them I didn't wanna go to jail. [laughs]

Approve money transfer. Approve money transfer. Don't wanna go to prison.

No, no. I, I think that I used to be more paranoid like th- I think when I was using drugs, I would have that-

Mm

... 'cause I would get drugs delivered by UPS.

Nice

And I would see, I would see the guy, like, pull up to my old office on Lafayette Street, and I would be like-

Oh

... "This is the one. This is the time. He's gonna get out."

Scored.

"Ah, they're gonna, they're gonna come in."

Scored. Scored.

Yeah, and it's, they're gonna be like, "All right, Mr. Black, come with us." And luckily, that, that did never happen, even though I c- I, you know, I, I did commit years of mail fraud.

Because the, because the, the drugs don't make you more paranoid, do they?

Not those drugs. At least from what I-

Oh, yeah

... I mean, not, not, not those drugs. But I think that, that, it is funny, I think it's funny, there are a lot of guys in our age and our position that have never thought about this once, so it's pretty funny that the, [laughs] that all three of us are like, "Yeah, I feel you, bro. I feel you."

I was like, "Yeah, why, why am I thinking about this?" Like, "Why am I thinking about this?" I'm like, "Oh-"

You're an upstanding citizen. You're, you're, you're a normal guy. You're not breaking the law. I mean, you know, a little speeding in the Porsche, but that's no b- I mean, that's-

Come on.

Yeah, I used to-

Come on

... I used to have some of that paranoia when I was doing more crime stuff, but nowYou know, I, I feel, you know, you, you're just, you're an adult man

Maybe that's, maybe that's why. Maybe because I just binge-watch horror movies and crime dramas or, like, crime documentaries, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's real. [laughs]

It's, like, invading my thoughts. I'm like, "I'm gonna stop watching all that shit and just, like, watch-"

I do-

I don't know. I need input

... I have a problem with authority in the same way. Like, I have a p- like, I could see myself going to jail for getting into an argument.

100%. [laughs]

Like, literally. Like, I'm, I've calmed down quite a lot and I'm very proud of myself, but, like, if somebody e- I, I could see myself get into a screaming match on the street, and somehow I'd-

Mm-hmm

... get arrested for it.

Yep.

Yeah.

So-

I like that you said somehow. [laughs]

Somehow.

Maybe it's 'cause you did something illegal.

No, no. I'm saying I think it's, like, at this point-

Like he tried to gouge his eyes out on-

No, but that-

... Lafayette Street?

... but that's what I mean. I think at this point you can get popped for much less than it used to be. Like, I literally think if you're causing-

Yeah, yeah, yeah

... a scene and you do something, you can go to jail. Like, you don't have to touch anybody anymore.

Where- whereas I am, you know, when you would watch a movie in the '80s or '90s and a, a, the cops would pull a car over and it'd be an, an upstanding-

Mm-hmm

... husband and wife and they say, you know, "Did you have any drinks, anything to drink tonight?" "Oh, I had a couple glasses of wine with dinner," and you, you kind of talk down at the police officer as if you're offended that this person would bother you.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

You know, an adult upstanding citizen of the world. That's my mental state now as I am, you know, as we are all in our 40s. We're, we're twice the age of a, of a police officer, so if I get pulled over, I'm talking down to them. I'm just like, "Are you gonna h-"

I think that's the play. Talk down-

Yeah, let me know how-

... and then start yelling at them

... yeah, let me know how that go, goes, guys.

[laughs]

I'm gonna be like, "Yes, sir." Well, I mean, it's not, it's not that. I'm, I'm being respectful and I'm cool and I'm chill, but I'm, in my mind, I'm just kinda like, I, I have the attitude that I am not a criminal here-

Not me, bro

... and there's no way you're ever going to arrest me.

Not me, bro. I'm-

And if you, if you exude that, then it won't happen.

Yeah.

Nah, bro. I'm like, I'm like, "Officer, Officer, it's in the glove compartment. I'm gonna re-

[laughs]

... I'm gonna get it. I'm gonna reach-"

Totally.

"... in my glove... driver... it's in the glove compartment."

Look in my hands. My hands are invisible.

"Look in my hands. No, no, no, I'll take my shirt off. I'll, uh, just let me know, bro."

[laughs] Yeah.

"I'll, I'll get down to my underwear if I need to. I don't give a fuck. Whatever we gotta do here to g- let me go."

Mm.

"Take off the chore coat, sir. I know about the secret pocket."

[laughs] Yeah. "Oh, is that a suede collar? Let me see that."

Oh, man. Oh, man.

[laughs]

Yeah, so yeah. That, that, I don't know. I don't know, dude.

You're not going, you're not getting popped. You're not getting popped. You're not getting popped. Um-

No, you're good. You're good, bro

... so that's, that's where I'm at, like, right now. I'm trying to, like, get everything out of the house. I'm trying to get rid of everything.

Especially those damn kids, right?

I wish your [laughs] I wish you were an XL.

[laughs]

How, how, h- like, do you guys live lean? Do you guys live lean? Or, like, that's what I'm trying to be is, like-

I, I live lean as hell.

See, that's what's up.

I don't. I mean, I live lean on, like, a surface level, but then if you go into the crevices of these storage spaces and the hundreds and hundreds of books-

Yeah

... and T-shirts and magazines-

Yes

... I do not live lean. But my, the actual apartment I'm in every day is fine.

That's fine. That's fine.

Lean-ish.

Lean. Lean, yeah.

I mean, I, I think other people in my life would maybe disagree with that. Um-

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

... but, you know, I think lean means different thing to different people, not just a dietician.

100%. You know, like, I saw someone, a friend of mine, he was, his, him and his wife, they moved to a new place in LA and photographed their, their place for, I don't know, some magazine or something, and it looks amazing, and they've got great taste, and he takes beautiful photographs, and I was like, "I mean, I can't go like that." I'm like, "I just don't have the discipline."

[laughs] Yeah.

I can't be, like, the guy that has, like, three pairs of pants and, like, two shirts in the closet and, like, that kind of stuff.

Mm-hmm.

And, like, I love books. My books are, like, everywhere, and, like, I like a little trinket thing.

Mm-hmm.

But, like, you know, did you watch Shang- like, like, the Rick Rubin Shangri-La thing? And, like, obviously you, you know what Shangri-La looks like and his house looks like in Malibu, and it's like-

Mm-hmm

... nothing, right?

You gotta be qu- you gotta keep it quiet. No clutter to scam like that.

Yo.

You gotta be me- you gotta be...

Nothing. Dude wears, like, beat up old cargo shorts and a James, James shirt.

That's too far. That's t- that feels performative.

Yeah.

That feels too far.

He's got his racist Hey Dude shoes on.

Yeah, dude. Racist Dudes.

[laughs] He is, yeah. He's known as the, uh, the right-wing whisperer to-

Wild

... the H- the Hollywood elite.

I b-

Wild

... I, I sort of believe it just because it's really fun to believe i- that, but I-

Yeah

... there's been no real proof.

Yeah.

That's the thing with Rubin, there's no proof of anything-

Yeah

... that's good or bad.

Yep. Because it's, like, not, the work isn't created. He's, like, a vessel, right?

Yeah.

He is the vessel.

"What do you mean, bro? This right-wing stuff's just passing through me, man."

Yeah. [laughs]

"I'm not, I don't believe it."

Try, yeah. "I took a picture of a ghost, but it didn't show up on the film. You know, it's ma- it's in the ether, brother."

Yeah. It's like I'm not even saying that. I'm not even, I'm, like, working on the music. It's just working through me. I'm like a-

Yes

... I'm, like, dowsing rods.

The stream's always running, man. I just tap in.

You know, it's funny. Like, I, she, you know, my mom had come to visit and we was like, "Yo, I wanted to watch this Rick Rubin, like, the Shangri-La documentary," you know? And she was like, "I can't watch this. This is too-"

It's too gay. [laughs]

"This is bullshit," you know? And-

[laughs]

Your mom is like, "This guy's full of shit. Fuck the Beastie Boys."

100%.

Yeah. And I'm like, "No, listen to how profound he is, and, like, what he's saying." And it's like, "Whoa, man." And she's like, "You're an idiot. So is he."

[laughs]

Like, "What are you talking about? All he's doing is regurgitating, like, you know, other spiritual disciplines from all over the world and then, like, you know, passing them off as, like, his."

That's really funny. That's really... Mom, sometimes that's what you need. Somebody's gotta keep it real.

100%. She did. She put me right. I was like, "Okay."

All right, Aaron. Thank you for podcasting with us today.

Thanks for having me.

Um-

Appreciate it

... it was a pleasure. What's the, what's the website? Is it, is it-

Uh, Aaron Levine, New York, NY. Sorry, aaronlevineny.com, even though it should be aaronlevineoh.com, but-

[laughs]

... it was, like, an impulsive decision.

No, I understand.

So you're, so i- does that mean you can, you can work as a local in New York?

Yeah, exactly. I don't have to pay taxes twice-

[laughs] That's good

... when I go visit for more than 12 days.

Smart.

[laughs]

It's all good.

Smart.

All right. Good to see you, bro. Thank you for taking the time.

Yeah, man.

And, um, we'll talk to you soon.

Thanks for yukking it up. See you fellas. Bye. [upbeat music]

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