872. - W. David Marx

All right, uh, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian, and they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world, and they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you?

We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place.

All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. [upbeat music] How Long Gone, uh, it's Chris Black. I am, um, coming to you from a already dark London. Uh, the sun is down, and it is, uh, depressing as fuck. Jason, how are you?

It's actually, it's a little dark and depressing over here, but more so on the sunrise instead of the sunset scale of things.

I've heard there's some, I've heard there's some rain. People are posting. I love that when the weather's bad in, in LA it becomes sort of a, a national news story.

God.

At least in my circles.

It's rare. It's because it's rare.

It's true. Can't argue with that. You can't argue with that.

Yeah, it'd be like if they were like, "Man, there's no rats in New York City," you know, that would be major news. Of course, that'll never happen.

Well, we'll see what, l- let's see what Maybach Zoe can do. I mean, he's trying to get rid... You know, you wanna give out free groceries, what about the rats? That's a real problem.

Yeah, and because Eric Adams, he was doing a lot with the rats, and it's all that, those years of work are gonna be all undone, right?

[laughs] Exactly. When the, when the new administration takes office, the rats are fucking back, baby.

Yeah, I'm, I mean, I don't, I don't live in New York, obviously, so I don't, I don't really have any skin in the game, although I have been spending a lot of time over there. Shout out to my Nine Orchard family. But whenever I hear anyone criticizing, like, you know, and Mom Donny's probably not gonna do anything about X, Y, Z, it, y- you, you think back and you're like, "What, who was the last New York-"

Who did anything? [laughs]

"... political," yeah, "person in political power who..." Any of those thing, is it's not like something is stopping now that he is in office, you know? Everything has already been at a complete zero in every city in the world, so it's not like we're taking any steps back, you know?

No, I, I, I would agree with that.

A lateral move at the very least.

I would agree with that. I, I, I've already forgot, I've already forgot about Zoe, honestly. I, I feel like I, I... Obviously, when he takes power it'll be a bigger deal, but I feel like it was nonstop and then, you know, then we got this excerpt from Olivia Nuzzi's book, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And things just took a turn. Now we don't care about him anymore until he takes office and gets rid of the rats.

And I think he's okay with that. He wants to get his, you know, put his, his hair in a bun, put on some gangster rap, get a biryani, and get after it.

[laughs]

Get to work.

When these guys are like, "I'm just ready to put my head down," I'm like, you, yeah, you've been bullshi- you've been smiling so hard that you have a headache for six months. Now it's time to get to work. Thank God. Thank God it's time to put my head down and just get to work.

I, oof.

I gotta grind.

I f- I feel like he is going to get more work done than when, uh, Gavin Newsom finally takes presidential office. Like, he-

Yeah, that's, that's because he's listening to the-

... I mean, he's, he's making no bones about his bullshittery.

That's 'cause he's listening to the AI 50 Cent song and getting fucking amped up on Adderall like a good millennial.

Dude, he's over, he's doing soil toxicity reports over in Palisades with Spencer Pratt.

[laughs]

He's gonna-

No

... he's going after it.

I, I love Pratt's, I love his, his pivot to a strange political voice, uh, because he, his house burned down. I think it, I think it took something-

Yeah, you push, push me to the edge, I'm about to break.

Yeah.

Like, if, if I would, I would be doing, if I had a platform, if me and my wife were famous on the internet, and the whole entire city infrastructure let me down, my house and home and every possession I had burned down, I'm going fucking AWOL on TikTok too. It's all you can do.

I haven't caught any of his, I've only read the stories about it. I haven't caught any of the videos. But I, I should. I know he's an amazing presenter, so I need to kinda-

Gifted orator

... when he's selling Heidi's music, I, I don't, [laughs] I don't plug in quite as much. But when he's-

Same

... when he's going right-wing, it's more interesting overall.

[laughs]

A- as a person who likes to be entertained.

But he's not, I don't think he's right wing. I think he's just mad as heck.

He's, I mean, well, sure. But I mean, it's a little bit, I think it's a little bit those are the people that will embrace him.

Saying he's purple?

I'm saying that, that that's the kind of people who embrace someone like him, so he gets lumped in with that, whatever his beliefs are or not i- is what, is what I'm trying to say.

Like when I inevitably go to jail and I have to hang out with the Aryan Nation just to protect my safety.

Do you wanna live or not? You know, do you wanna live or not?

Mm-hmm.

You gotta make it out of here.

You want the silver or you want the lead, TJ?

I saw, I saw that 50 was trolling Diddy saying he must be having a good time in prison surrounded by all these guys-

[laughs]

... which was pretty, from a photo of him out in the yard.

It's too easy. Low-hanging fruit. Little low-hanging fruit.

Out in the yard. Well, you know, when there's a, when there's a grainy picture of a guy out in the yard, you know, you can barely make out who it is, but it still gets published.

Mm-hmm.

I love the thirst for, for puffy intel that we're at. L-

He fucking-

Like, he's in jail and he's-

... is he standing next to a guy? He fucking-

He can't get a lineup and he's got a beard. Like, what do you think? Like, what do you... Of course, he's in jail, for God's sakes.

[laughs]

Like, what do you expect?

Yeah.

The fuck do you think he's gonna do?

I mean, you know, he's gonna... He immediately looks like Frederick Douglass, and he's getting his-

[laughs]

... little man pussy busted out left, right, and center.

[laughs] He said, "We ain't-" [laughs]

"Going nowhere." [laughs]

You gonna get this dick, old Freddy.

[laughs] Ooh, Goddammit.

Mm. Oh, man. Oh, man.

You ever get some-

That's good

... some head from a forefather? Ooh.

[laughs]

Take them wooden teeth out.

Oh, you thought, you thought you'd had something. You thought you'd experienced it, but you haven't.

Do not sleep on forefather throaty.

Until the w- until the wood d- until the wood teeth are on the bedside table, you don't know what you're getting into.

Ah, that founding father is a munch

Oh, shit. [laughs]

Okay. So you are, you are in, in crispy London town. How-

I'm in London

... is it going well? Have you linked up with friend of the show, uh, Plum Sykes yet?

Yeah, we went this morning, uh, to, to Fortnum & Mason for our story that we're doing. It was pretty fun. I, I'd never... We were in there before it opened.

Mm.

And being in places that, like, big and normally bustling when it, when it's not open is always a funny experience.

Mm-hmm.

Um-

Mm-hmm

... but I was able to, I was able to purchase some items, um, at, at the store. I have some-- I got, brought Alex back some chocolates. I got some, you know-

Mm-hmm

... cacao-covered almonds. Yeah, I resisted any of the l- big-ticket items. The sort of toddler-sized hollow Santa ch- made of chocolate for 135-

Ooh

... I was able to kinda... I was able to leave that on the shelf, but great gift if you're in the market for a giant, uh, chocolate Santa. Hollow of course, but still.

It's not that giant. You said it's toddler sized.

That's pretty big for a Santa.

[laughs]

I mean it-

It's pretty big for... No, it's pretty big for food.

Yeah, for-

It's big for food

... yeah, yeah, pretty big for food. Exact-

It's not big for Santa. Santa's usually a whole, full-grown man.

That's true. Santa, Santa's a big ass dude. But yeah, I went to Rita's last night with, uh-

Ooh

... Shaad and Ed and, uh-

Ooh

... Gabe was able-

Joloff

... Gabe and Missy came. I had a delicious... I had a big discussion with Gabe about this.

Chris Black, bite of the night. Let's get into it.

It was barbecued monkfish. It was delicious.

[laughs]

But I was like, "Gabe," I was like, "Where's the rest of my... I'm, I'm American, God damn it. Like, this portion size is... I mean, you know, it's for ladies."

Was it a petite monkfish?

It was a petite monkfish, and he said, "You don't know the price of monkfish, do you, chief?"

[laughs]

And I, and I said, "Actually, I don't." And he said, "Well, let, let me educate you, young brother."

[laughs]

And he let me know that monkfish i- in the UK at least is, is peaking, and I was... I, I, I immediately-

Mm-hmm

... you know, I immediately walked it back. I don't wanna disrespect the chef and the owner, obviously, a- and I respect the, the fish prices do rise depending on what's going on in Parliament.

He said, "You want skate wing? Well, I'll give you five pounds of that."

[laughs]

"No, I'll give you a whole fucking Tesco bucket load of that."

[laughs] How much you want? Back the black cab up, bitch, let's go. I'll get you some skate wing.

Okay, and but then in, in, in your capitalist Chris American mind, you said, "Okay, the price of monkfish going up, I s- I still want my size. Just charge me more," right?

Charge me, charge, charge me more. I, I-

It's called market price. You know, this steak is 170, this steak is 240 because this... it, it's more product. That's all it is.

I agree, and I think Ed had a pork chop, and I think Shaad and i- and yeah, I think Shaad had a, a duck. Everybody, basically everybody went for the good stuff. I went for the monkfish, which was delicious, but I needed, I needed a duck or a pork chop to really fill me up, you know?

Okay, okay. No, so you needed your, your gains, your team. But I, I will say it is out of character for you, such a less adventurous eater to be tucking into a barbecued monkfish. I feel like a Chris from just even mid-COVID, just two, three years ago-

Well, it's, it's, yeah

... the tho- the idea of eating barbecued monkfish seems like it would be at the top of the list of your no-fly zone.

Well, if it was, if it was covered in barbecue sauce, then yes, I would be adverse. But the-

Okay

... the simple act of cooking over a flame, I, I can appreciate that, and the flavors and smokiness that it does bring out in the delicate fish.

Mm. Do you think there's a small chance, Chris, that this could be a grilled monkfish and not a barbecued monkfish?

[laughs]

There is a difference between the two.

I wasn't gonna say that, but I literally think it was... You know what? I need to look this up.

I know Gabe is listening to this right now and he's fucking chiseling a hole in his hand with a pencil.

[laughs] I need to look it up. I, because I li-

[laughs]

... I literally think it wa- I think he liter- I think they made a point of saying it was barbecued. But now-

Okay

... I'm, I'm like, "Am I wrong?" Because what you're saying obviously makes more sense in that restaurant setting.

Well, we all have different variations on the definition. Oh, look, I'm looking at a beautiful barbecued monkfish with Tokyo Turnips. She's on the new Ice Spice song. [laughs]

[laughs] I was gonna say, Tokyo Turnips, follow her on OnlyFans. Uh, is that... So I w- I'm correct

Stop playing with them, Tokyo.

[laughs]

With a mole amarillo and a rich yellow mole made with guajillo chile, meco and amarillo chiles, peanuts, masa, oregano, cinnamon and sesame. So this is, this is a Latinx preparation of barbecued monkfish. Maybe... So it was smoky.

Uh, yeah, it was d- it was delicious. I really liked it. I really-

It looks like a great little plate. And that monkfish-

The key word there, Jason-

... the mouthfeel, right? Slutty

... the, the key, key word there is little, and that's my, that's my-

Oh

... you know what I mean? But I, I mean, whatever.

Yeah.

I, I could've ordered two if I wanted to, you know?

Mm-hmm. You said, "Where the rest of this monk?"

But yeah, l- everybody else, Li- it was me, Shaad, Liam, Claire, Ed, and they all got these big boy adult dishes, and then I felt like I was, I felt like I just had to get, you know, more s-

Oh

... more side salad. You know how it-

I would, I would argue that this is maybe the most adult dish on there.

That's rare for me.

You know?

I mean, I'm not going kids meal mode, but, you know, sometimes I-

I went, I w- we were, we were thinking of you. I, uh, I had a little talk over at your San Vicente Bungalows last night. Shout out to Ricky for, for hooking it up. But, uh, Patrick Sandberg, long gone friend, and I had a conversation discussing the LA renaissance man on a rainy Monday night. But at the San Vicente Bungalows, we all know that that's the day of the week that Chris Black magically likes to oops in. Let's just go on a Monday. Oh, you guys have-

[laughs]

... free ice cream sundaes on Monday? How... That's such a weird co-inky-dink that we are on that same night that that happens.

You're saying I get to build my own? Um, can I get some extra Heath bar? [laughs]

But I, I was dining with Ryland and he said, "You know, when Chris comes to town, he's got his SVV," and you guys would have dinner often. And he said-

Yeah

... you know, coincidentally, just by the luck of the random, totally random draw, the one night a week where they offer free ice cream sundae platter, build your own wheel-

[laughs]

... was the time that you guys ended up there. And theYou know, we're just, we just, we're discussing how that's such an old Chris and how we're proud of you that you don't-

Thank you

... you know, sprinkle the Heath bar crunch on top of that soft serve.

Thank you. It takes everything I had, uh, everything I have, especially San Vicente Bungalows, the desserts do shine, I have to say. Um, and the-

Yeah

... the ice cream thing is just more fun than anything else. Obviously, I don't like sharing, so there's some issues there.

Yeah, yeah. There's some-

But I'm, I'm glad that you, I'm glad that you... How did it go? Was it a good turnout even though it was raining?

Yeah, even though it was raining, it was a good turnout. It was great. They had, you know, some free wine. We had some little pigs in a blanket, little mini grilled cheeses, and then we had a nice big dinner afterwards with, uh, some other, some friends. Uh, Yassi, Yassi Salek, podcaster, friend of the show. Who else was there? Sky was there. Charlie was there for a random other dinner. She popped in for a little bit. Greg K and there was a guy who's Cat's Eyes creative director. I forgot his name, but he was a fun gay guy. [laughs]

[laughs] All right. This is just starting to sound like-

Nicky Takash

... this is starting to sound like-

It was all there. It was a, it was a fun night.

You're starting to sound like Whac-A-Mole. I love that. That sounds great.

It was a, it was a power gay Whac-A-Mole.

That sounds... I mean, that's kind of the dream situation for what you're describing, so I'm, I'm glad that it, it-

For you, as a, as a pass around party twunk-

Mm-hmm

... this was prime real estate for a little bossy bottom like yourself, wasn't it?

Prime, prime real estate. I'm in this... I'm staying at this hotel called the Zetter that I've never stayed at before in Clerkenwell, and I, I-

Zetter?

Z-E-T-T-E-R. And I didn't really look into it that-

Got it

... I didn't really look into it that hard, and it's one of my favorite hotel rooms I've ever stayed in maybe. I'm sitting at the dining table.

Mm.

That is... It, it's just, it fee- it really feels like you're in somebody's house, which I think is what every hotel tries to pull off but rarely does.

Mm.

Um, and I'm just... I'm, I'm happier than a pig in shit. The floors are heated. You got the bathtub.

[laughs]

You got every-

Oh, yeah

... it's got, it's got everything I need, you know? It, it doesn't have a restaurant, so there's no food smells. It's perfect.

Ooh, huge for you.

Huge.

How's the mini bar? Anything in there?

Yeah. There's, there's, there's... Yeah, if you wanna have a gin martini, there's stuff in there, but, you know, if you want some crisps or some peanuts, they got you, but no, no extra shit.

Yeah, yeah.

You know? It's not, it's not Chateau Marmont with the milk duds, I'll tell you that.

[laughs]

No m- no milk duds over here.

Yeah, when-

They probably call it something different

... when I was, when I was at, um, at the Nine Orchard, and we have our guest here, W. David Marks, but he's on mute because he's a good guy 'cause we're doing... He knows what he's doing. He's got a-

He's a pro

... he's a motherfucking pro. But, uh, w- was talking to Larry, um-

McGuire

... proprietor of the property, and I was telling the story about when we had the hug, and he... I thought he was going in for the hug-

[laughs]

... but it was actually just him moving around and, and I hugged him, and he did the, "Well, I guess we're hugging now" kind of thing. And he sent me a text saying like, "Don't worry, bro. I liked the hug. It was cool."

[laughs]

But, but normally when I stay at that hotel, I stay on the seventh floor, and they have a terrace-

Yeah

... with, like, an outdoor area, which is my smoking section.

[laughs]

And, and this time I was on 12U, and I was looking. I was like, "Damn, this room's nice." And you were in it. We podcasted.

Great room. Great room.

I went, went on the website to look. That is the penthouse. That is the biggest, most grand room in the whole hotel with my dumb ass in there. But he was saying on the, on the seventh floor outdoor terrace, he's like, "What do you think about putting a little cold plunge sauna up out on that balcony?"

[laughs]

And I was like, "Bro, you are bringing a little touch of Austin to Dime Square in the perfect amount."

They fucking need it. They need it, bro.

Like, we're not gonna do any... We're not, I'm not gonna put in a home state taco place.

[laughs]

I'm not gonna do a queso fundido.

[laughs]

A right wing pop-up stand.

No.

I'm just gonna keep everything as it is but add a cold plunge and a sauna. That's exactly all I need.

No, that's a really good idea. All right, let's... D- David's here. Uh, let's talk to him. His new book... I mean, he's, he's off- he's authored several books, but his new one, uh, Blank Space: A Cultural History-

It's about Taylor Swift, I think, right?

... of the 21st Century is out, uh, today, actually. I think we're talk- talking to him on pub day, and he's, as a resident of, uh, the motherland Japan, but he's in America just to talk to us, which is really nice for him to take the flight, um, even though we're doing this remotely. Um, so let's, uh, let's give-

Just send us the invoice on that one.

Yeah, no problem. Let's give, uh, let's give David a call. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian, Stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's, uh, it's trying to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world, and I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions.

A lot of questions, but how often? 'Cause we do this podcast three times a week, and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do?

Three times a week, and I, I, I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe gonna be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess.

The Guardian is not some billionaire-owned platform. They're not afraid to say what they wanna say, brother.

Yeah. Rupert ain't sniffing around in, in what, uh, journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at, at, uh, Stateside.

Mm-hmm.

But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch on YouTube. It's three times a week, and, and who couldn't use more news? You know, especially, especially when it's, when it's not, you know, from here, let's say.

[laughs]

Give it, give it a, give it a listen. Give it a listen. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by our best friends at BetterHelp. Jason, we're, we're deep into May, which is, uh, Mental Health Awareness Month, and this is just a reminder that whatever you're going through, you don't have to go through it alone. Life is a damn journey. Some days feel good and others feel overwhelming. Whatever's keeping you up at night, it's easy to feel like you have to figure it all out on your own. But the truth is no one has all the answers. Well, and no journey should be alone. Having someone with you to listen, to understand, and to support you can really make all the difference.

I agree, Chris, and sometimes, you know, it, it's nice to be talking to somebody even if they're not even listening, even if you don't even get to be in the same room with them because what you're doing is you're admitting these things to yourself and that's the most, that's the most rewarding thing you can do sometimes. So you can have a great little therapy sesh with your perfect therapist at BetterHelp. Choosing between over 30,000 people so you can get the right one just for you. Over six million people globally are using it and, you know, have some breakthroughs. Go on that walk after your BetterHelp sesh. You know, whatever it might be. Get a nice little lunch all for yourself. Maybe a non-alcoholic kombucha. And just think and be like, "DamnI really am him. You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have somebody with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/howlong. That is betterH-E-L-P.com/howlong.

Every time I go to the doctor, I walk out of that bitch feeling dumb. I got no real info. This guy in a white coat just say, "You're fine." You know? "Drink more water."

He knows how to charge my copay.

Exactly.

That's about it.

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[laughs]

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I had to bring a podcast mic to the United States for this.

Okay, look, to, to be fair, I don't wanna, I don't wanna... Look, Jason takes this seriously, but I would say that might be overkill, but we appreciate it.

Yeah. I w- you gotta sound good.

But you, you own this. You've used this before. You, you, you have a windscreen, for Christ sakes. [laughs]

Yeah, I have a windscreen. I had to, like, jury rig it to work 'cause it, uh... But it's like a, it's like a music windscreen. So.

Well, it's because, it's because you care, and you do a lot of interviews about all of your books that you write, so you wanna sound good. Y- y- what are... That mic was, what? 100 bucks, 200 bucks? It's not like-

Hold on, hold on, hold on. He said for singing. Are you doing a David Berman cover album I don't know about, or what's going on?

[laughs] I, I, I once made music back in the day. Uh-

Hold on one goddamn second. I di- I didn't know that. What, what kind of shit-

Oh, is this Skateboard W we have on the call today?

[laughs]

[laughs]

But also, they don't make podcast windscreens just yet. I think it's just, like, for singing.

That's, that's true. That's true. That's true.

Yeah.

What do you, what do you, uh... What is your weapon of choice if you go into the Guitar Center?

I mean, look, I, in, in high school I played in bands. Like, I did alternapop. Uh-

Okay

... and then I got really sick of that and started getting back into piano, and I did weird digital plus '60s songwriter kind of stuff in the early 2000s.

Nice.

It went, it went nowhere. It was, like, music about music and it, it had no audience.

[laughs] Sure, sure, sure, sure. I know the style that you speak of.

Yeah. Yeah.

I know the style that you speak of.

You said alternapop?

Yeah.

You are some alt... What is your brand of alternapop, just to give us some bearings?

It was just, like, all, all that mid-'90s... Like, we, we loved, I don't know, R.E.M. and-

Weezus?

... Pavement.

Don't say Weezus.

No, Weezus was, that's much later. I mean, it, but-

Okay

... but, like, that's, that's, like, the end point of alternapop. That's where they started adding DJ scratches and the whole thing went to hell.

Mm-hmm. Mm.

[laughs] Slow down now. Slow down. Don't come for DJ Homicide like that.

I forgot about DJ scr- those are coming back now that trip hop is returning-

Uh-huh

... to the zeitgeist. I'm hearing a, a, an errant scratch from time to time, and I gotta tell you, I don't like it either.

Scratching really was in and it was out. You can, you can date some, a lot of music by how much, how much scratching there was.

Jason-

Fuck you guys.

Jason, have you ever, have you ever been asked to come down to the studio and lay some scratches on anything?

Uh, it's very possible. There was a time when I was flirting with the idea of being in a Portishead-style band, b- and I wanted to-

Hold on. Hold on. This is... Hold on. We talk to each other a lot, and this is the first time I've heard of this.

This was... I was still living in Orange County. Uh, it was, it was early days.

Okay.

But the problem was it was, like, me and this dude, this stoner dude would play bass, and then there was, like, these two Asian dudes, and they were m- better at scratching than I was just because of, you know, the genetic cards that were dealt to me. So I was on, I was playing kind of, like, Godspeed You Black Emperor stoner guitar lines with, like, a lot of reverb.

Okay.

And they were getting their [imitates record scratching]

So they were turntablists, is what you're saying?

They were turntablists.

The amount of times Jason's-

Yeah

... eaten sushi with turntablists, I can't, I can't count on m- I can't count on two hands and two feet.

So I, I think to answer your question, uh, because I'm so surrounded by so many turntablists, I never got the call to come into the studio with, uh, you know, Shiftee Shellshock, may he rest in peace.

RIP to the GOAT, Shiftee. Uh, RIP. All right. So David, you're, you're in N- you, you're in New York.

Yes, hi.

And i- is this for... Are you just there, are you here for launch week? Or are you, do you have other plans that you're trying to-

He was sick of podcasting at 4:00 AM, so he popped over here for a week, huh?

[laughs]

We've tried to do this for, like, two years, and you're like, "You know what, bro?"

Yes.

"Let's just do this shit when I'm in New York. Like, it's all good. We'll just wait till I'm over there so it's easier."

It's working. I'm, I'm honored that you waited so long to have me. But, uh, no-

[laughs]

... I'm in New York to, to launch, and-

This is my first time, and I waited

... uh, I'm here, I'm here to launch the book. It just, you gotta be on the ground. It's kind of a rule of life. And so I wasn't here l- for the last one, and, uh, so I had to be here. And, uh, I'm going to Boston tomorrow, but that's basically it. Just New York and Boston.

Sorry about that. Well, I'm sure you have a reason to go to Bo- are you visiting your alma mater in Cambridge?

In Cambridge, yeah. Uh-

Got it. [laughs]

The, the Cambridge something bookstore. Uh, but yeah. Uh, and, uh-

[laughs]

... um, uh, my host for that event is my former college roommate, so yeah, that, that one's more like an alumni-

Oh

... uh, kind of feeling.

Okay.

But yeah, New York. New York's where it matters.

Homecoming.

Do you think these cheap motherfuckers are gonna pony up and buy a few books? Or do you think, you know-What, what do you think? Do you think Boston's gonna t- show up and show out to support one of their own?

Not like, not like New York.

Sure.

[laughs]

Well, to be fair, the subjects that you talk about are more New York than Boston, I would say.

They're more New York than anywhere.

[laughs]

I mean, the, the craziest thing is like-

We got fucking culture there, man.

[laughs]

We got culture.

I did 300 pages on Dunkin', and they didn't even respond to that. I don't know what I'm supposed to do.

There is a Dunkin' Donuts reference. There is a Dunkin' Donuts reference that brings New York and Boston together, which is-

Oh

... the, the Dunkin' Donuts commercial with Ben Affleck and Ice Spice.

Mm.

That's a real healing moment for the East Coast. [laughs]

Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on. Can I ask you a question real quick?

Yeah.

Do you think they were ever in the same room?

No, they were absolutely not.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's the best part-

Just making sure

... about the commercial is that they weren't.

Yeah.

You think Affleck hit? You think Affleck hit, though?

[laughs]

Just for the story. I mean, uh, you don't have to answer that, of course, but, um, what do you think about the new Ice Spice song/video, Big Guy, from the forthcoming SpongeBob movie soundtrack?

Is, is this Mad Libs, or this, this is a real thing?

This is real. This is real.

Okay.

This is real.

I haven't seen it.

It's, it's going, it's going viral on my corner of Twitter, where she wrote a song called Big Guy, and the lyrics just say, "Big guy, good pants," or something like that.

[laughs]

It's, like, five words, and it's repeated like a mantra. It makes no sense, but it's obviously Stop Playin' With Me Riot is on the beat, and he-

Uh-huh

... it's like a real kinda B-more, like a fun B-more kinda beat, and it's, like, an earworm where you're like this is, this is music for, like, one-year-olds, but I can't stop listening to it kinda thing.

Is this gonna be the, [clears throat] the, like, drill crossover moment, the SpongeBob?

Feel old yet, chief?

I mean, I think SpongeBob is an urban film, technically, based on-

[laughs]

... based on the, the way-

Based on pajama pants only?

Uh, well, I mean, SpongeBob feels... I mean, I feel like s- there's a SpongeBob Supreme collaboration. I'm sure... Like, I feel like all of that stuff has happened-

[laughs]

... and it somehow-

SpongeBob SquarePants is an urban film? [laughs]

No, but, like, Sponge- SpongeBob SquarePants, like, NASCAR jacket. Like-

Mm

... you could see Dro in that. You could s- You know what I... That's not crazy. That's, like, real... This is stuff that a- ac- definitely exists in the world.

No, I mean, I get it. They, they, they did email Ice Spice and not Michelle Branch to do this, you know, so-

It's a great point. That's... When you put it that way, when you put it that way-

Facts don't lie

... I don't... What is your relationship to Boston as a short-term resident? I, I assume you only did four years 'cause you're such a smart guy.

[laughs]

You didn't have to do five, did you?

No, uh, I mean, look, I'm from Pensacola, Florida, and so Boston felt like moving to the big city.

Oh.

Uh, and so-

I mean, it is the big-

Yeah

... I mean, compared to Pensacola. I didn't realize you were a Florida guy. That's great.

Yeah. I was born in Oklahoma, so it was really even moving on up to get to Pensacola. Uh-

[laughs]

... and I was in Oxford, Mississippi before that. But yeah, I mean, so-

Wow

... they had a subway, right?

Uh-huh.

I mean, that, like, it, it had a, a metro train-

The, the T-

... you could be on

... the T-

The T

... as it's, as it-

The T, yeah

... as it's referred.

So it's like I kind of, you know, y- I, I progressed. It's like I went to Boston, then I was in New York, and then I was in Tokyo, so it's i- uh-

Yeah

... it was kind of a moving up, like, you know, yellow belt, green belt, or whatever.

Tokyo, you think you're better than me?

What, uh, what, [laughs] what era of Boston? Because there was a legendary Boston nightlife era sort of anchored, like, sort of electro clash. You know what I mean? Like, Gibby-

Mm

... from Makeout Club had a party there. Jason, you know what I'm talking about.

I know a little bit about it, but it seems like you might know a little bit more than I do.

I can't remember, I can't remember what the par- Making Time was Philadelphia, right?

Yeah. No, there was something in Boston, and I totally forgot. Lil, Lil Internet may have been involved.

That, I think it was before his time.

Oh, wow, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Or their t- their time. I don't wanna offend.

This is all after me.

[laughs]

I, I would go to shows in the Middle East.

Okay. Okay, okay.

And I, I would go see The Promise Ring at the Middle East.

Ooh.

And that, that's, that's, like, the-

I mean, look, that's, that's much better than what I'm talking about, you know? [laughs]

Okay. Let's, let's talk about how cute you were dressing at The Promise Ring show in college.

You know his ass had a little-

Because right now you're already dressing like a little cutie, so I can only-

[laughs]

... imagine when you were fucking 19.

Jason, you know he had a little baby tee with a button-

It was a tight tee, yeah

... button, button on the T-shirt.

[laughs]

You know, button on the T-shirt. That's a, that's a-

Uh, obviously there was a strap across the chest.

[laughs]

But was it diagonal, straight, horizontal? What was going on with your strap situation?

Uh, I was probably wearing, like, Japanese streetwear. But it was, it was definitely a tighter fit.

You had the Bapestas on at Promise Ring? [laughs]

Uh, there were no Bapestas yet. This is pre-Bapestas.

[laughs]

So this was just some-

You idiot. It was pre-Bapesta. Come on, Jason.

Uh, yeah.

Look, I'm sorry.

I, or wearing, like, a Buffalo Daughter T-shirt. Like, I was just into obscure Japanese bands. I saw-

So you were like-

Yeah

... "I'm the only... They don't know I'm the only guy at The Promise Ring show wearing Kapital denim-

Yeah

... with the Visvim on," and they're like, "We all see your gay ass with the Kapital denim and the Visvim."

Yeah, and, like, Adidas Superstars or whatever.

[laughs]

Yeah, but, like, that was-

Okay

... that was how we lived then.

So you were mixing the, you were mixing some of the classic emo staples with your own, your own maybe newly discovered Japanese streetwear obsession.

That's right. I didn't, I didn't... It wasn't that cool. This sounds much more romantic than it was. But yeah, it was just-

Don't worry Da- don't worry, David, we were all there i- in our own ways, and we know it wasn't that cool.

Yeah, but looking back, very cool, very ahead of the time. But at, at the time, they were not able to really understand your level of dressing just yet, which, you know, blessing and a curse of being whatever it is that you are.

But I probably wore the same pair of jeans every single day for about two years in college, like, that-

You have to.

Yeah. So.

Did you freeze them, put them in the freezer?

Yeah, what kind of selvedge are we rocking with, though, at that time?

That was... So at the time in New York, 'cause, like, there's nothing in Boston, so I'd go to New York to shop, and I had a pair of 45rpm, like, Japanese selvedge. And, uh, they weren't that expensive. But yeah, I just, that was, like, basically I'd wear those and a T-shirt every single day.

Yeah.

And, uh, I had a camo Bape record bag that was bright blue-

Ooh

... that looked like-

Oh, hell yeah. Hell yeah

... that looked like flowers to every other person because [laughs] nobody knows what it is, and they're like, "Why does he wear that flower tote bag everywhere?" [laughs]

Damn, you had the... I forgot about record bags-

Yeah

... which is simply a messenger bag that is shaped to hold-

It's square

... 12-inch vinyl. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

But those were really-

You need it

... I'm sure Jason had a few statement DJ bags as well.You're not the only one

They weren't, no, no. My, I was more utilitarian with my vinyl transpo.

Are you s- are you saying you put it in-

I didn't go, I didn't go Paul Frank with it

You put it in a Gelson's bag? Yeah, d- d-

No, no, no. There was, there was... You know, you have to go and get them at Guitar Center and not at Barneys-

Oh-

... you know what I mean?

I see, I see, I see, I see, I see

It wasn't cute

That makes, that makes more sense. I like this. I think this look, it doesn't sound like you've, you've strayed that far from it, Dave.

[laughs]

Honestly. I mean, I think, 'cause I've been thinking about this a lot lately. It's like, wait-

You wear a lot of camo baby tees nowadays-

[laughs]

... so yeah, it seems, like, pretty in line with what's going on now

I, I'm gonna say that, I'm gonna say that David has more camo in his storage spaces than we do.

Hmm.

That's my guess.

It's actually not true. I don't wear ca- I, I feel like it's-

[laughs]

... stolen valor a little bit to wear camo. It's the same with Carhartt, like, I-

It is

... uh, you know, I just, I, I never worked a road crew. I can't, I can't rock Carhartt.

You ain't digging ditches?

Yeah.

Well, let me, let me, let me introduce you to the idea of de-badging, uh, something that I'm passionate about no matter what the brand is.

Hmm.

We're taking that tag off. If it's visible, we're taking it off. The tailor's taking it off. I, I have one pair of Carhartt pants that I love because they're brown, and I, I feel like it's a strange color, but I agree with you. When I wear them, I'm like, "I sit in front of a computer all day. I'm a total pussy."

[laughs]

"This doesn't feel right."

Um, okay, so you-

You know?

... you mentioned wearing the same pair of denim every day, not washing them for multiple years, uh, you know, possibly. In our era, Chris and I, a lot of our friends are doing the same. A lot of them, there's a two-parter, a lot of them, no underwear.

Hmm.

I'm assuming you were going underwear.

Yeah, yeah.

And a lot of them, you would have to do things, put them in the freezer, spray them with weird things.

Uh-huh.

Because, but also, you don't seem like a particularly pissy pants kinda person, so I think you-

[laughs]

[laughs]

... kept things-

No, sir

... on the up and up, right? You a pissy guy, W. David?

Uh, there was, there was no special knowledge at that time. There was no-

Okay, okay

... we didn't know about the freezer.

Okay.

There was no internet forum-

Okay

... at that point.

That's good because I still stand by... You've heard about the pissy, uh, selvedge rumor-

[laughs]

Yeah, have you? Yeah, no

... I'm sure. David, you haven't?

Pissy Selvedge, uh, opening for Fake Mink right now on a couple select dates.

Yeah, p- p- I love Pissy Sel-

[laughs]

But the, it's, the i- the idea is the reason crotches blow out on d- on men's jeans is because no matter what-

Mm-hmm

... you do, there's a little bit of drip that, that touches that part of the denim, and then it-

Mm-hmm

... it eventually blows out.

[laughs]

And although that sounds ridiculous, upon further-

It's an acidic reaction. It's just simple science

Yeah, but upon further revie- o- o- upon f- further review-

Mm-hmm

... it's not that crazy of an idea.

But they really do blow out. It's true. They blow out, yeah.

No, I just, I think it's a really crazy, 'cause I just feel like, uh, I, uh, that really is the first part of jeans. Unless you, you know, fall off your bike and skin your knee, that's the first part of the jeans that give, you know?

Yeah, I had to-

Mm-hmm

... I had to get them taken in because I blew the crotch. That's, that's just the way it works.

[laughs]

They, they would be perfect except that the crotch would blow, and you'd have to go in and be, get them hemmed up.

I have the best pair of, I have the best pair of APC jeans from, like, 2002 that I can't believe ever fit on my body.

Mm-hmm.

You know what I mean?

[laughs]

And I've given them, given them to my wife, but they are just... The amount of times I had the crotch repaired, it, it's, it, it costs me more than the jeans.

You telling Alex is wearing your little fat-ass pants from 20- 2002, and they're working for her?

I mean, she's gotta wear a belt, but, like-

Okay

... yeah, I mean, I was-

I mean, that's a testament to how possibly snatched you were at this time

I wasn't, I don't think I was snatched. I think my pants were too tight. I think it's too f- those, those two things can-

It was, it was probably a little SpongeBob-y. Things are looking real tight down below-

[laughs]

[laughs]

Yes, exactly

... and then up top is where it all goes.

Exactly.

Okay.

Exactly, exactly.

Have you done the butler before, where you take in your old pairs and you get a discount?

Uh, at APC, you mean?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

So APC has this thing, yeah.

Something doesn't sit right with me with that. I, I just feel like I don't... I like thing- I'm happy to buy something that's been washed, you know what I mean, or whatever.

Mm-hmm.

But I don't, I don't know if I wanna buy somebody else's destroyed jeans unless they're v- actually vintage for some, like 501s for some reason.

Unless they're hot on, on a model.

Well, you don't have to buy, you don't have to buy them, but you can sell them, or you can give them to, to A.P.C. and get a discount.

[laughs]

And so, I mean, it, but it feels like-

But I'm part of the problem

... a incredible honor. But it feels like an honor when you bring them in-

[laughs]

... and they're like, they actually accept it. It's like, "Yeah, thank you. I've done my service."

Oh, 'cause they have... Okay, c- okay.

'Cause there's some, they're like, "No, this, your fit sucks," where it's like they're-

Like, you wanna, like, you wanna go into A.P.C.-

Yeah

... and then you, you dump the little Whole Foods bag out on the counter, and somebody's like, "Hey, get, get Steve over here. He needs to take a look at this." Like, you want all the staff to stop-

Yeah [laughs]

... holding clothes and come and be, and admire your wash.

They're like, "Shit, this is, we can actually take this one."

Okay.

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. So that, it, it feels like a badge of honor that I have-

Hmm

... I have butlered two pairs.

Okay.

A true custodian-

Someone out there-

... of the space

... has my old pairs.

What's the butler... Yeah, I, I wanna know what guy got those, 'cause you're as tall as Jason, or close, I think.

Yeah, and maybe at that point the, the fit was, like, you had a really, they were, like, Tom Brown crop.

Yeah.

So may- maybe they, they worked for-

Oh, man

... for other people.

Did you see that story, did you see that story Jake Gallagher wrote for The New York Times about the guy who wears the crazy selvedge jeans every day that are, like-

Extremely long

They, like-

They're, like, 12 feet long

... they're really long, so you, and he... They're 12 feet long-

Right

... so he wears them every day. They're Naked & Famous, I think. So he wears them every day to get the crazy honey c- to get the stack. [laughs]

And he looks, he has to, like, lay down. It's, like, putting the... It's crazy. The whole thing is so crazy.

I told Jacob, "I don't, these, these jeans look pretty normal to me."

[laughs]

I also like the way you said N- Naked & Famous.

[laughs]

Shawn, you come over to the crib. You ain't got nothing on but the Naked & Famous.

I ain't, I ain't putting any respect on Naked & Famous' name. I'm sorry. That's just, that's just me.

Okay, well, um, we, we do plan to talk about your, your great new book, Blank Space, but-

Thank you, yeah

... it would, it would be foolish on, even on pub day with so much going on, the, the literary girls are fighting. There's a lot of stuff happening in, in your media space with the, the Olivia Newsey-

Mm

... the Dasha Hollywood Reporter going on. It feels like we're d- we're in, like, a, a well actually, quote-unquote, type of journalism where the story comes out, and then two days later somebody's like, "This is actually the story," and it's... It feels like there's, like, narrative, like, soap opera WWE infighting going on to maybe get clicks. I don't know. What do you think?

I mean, you guys love this, right?

Oh, I lo-

This is like your bread and butter

... how do I love it?

[laughs]

Are you kidding me? I'm vibrating over here. I-

I'm, I'm a little separated from the space, as I only read when we have guests on the podcast who write books, but Chris is more in the media space.

I think the-Nuzzi's stuff is sort of whatever. Like, I think she, I think she's, like, I don't know. That doesn't interest me that much. I think she's gonna be fine, and the book's probably good, and I love the drama of her calling him the politician only and not referring to him by name when we all know by name. But the fact that her ex-boyfriend waited 10 years to post a Substack today about her having another thing with another politician is some of the nastiest work I've ever seen, and I'm deeply impressed, and I'm, I'm actually writing about this right now. This is the best use of Substack I've ever seen.

[laughs]

This is the actual reason for a paywall.

And also, millions of people know what Tellos is today who did not know yesterday, I'm assuming.

Maybe.

I didn't know what it was.

I don't-

Man, I'm glad I read the internet before doing this podcast. But-

It'd be weird if you didn't

... is this part of the problem? You know, like-

In what sense?

It's like, is, is, if culture is all gossip at every level. Like, there's indie gossip now in a way that there used to only be celebrity gossip. Now it's like this is, like, there's writer gossip-

Oh

... and Times Square gossip. There's, like, gossip all the way up and down the chain.

But wasn't there always?

I guess there was always. Yeah.

I mean, I think there was always industry, but I think this is the, the problem is we all have access to it whether we're in the industry or not.

Yeah, yeah. So, like, how do you, what do you think about DeuxMoi in the sense that that site is gossip, but it's also surveillance state? It's like, let's crowdsource rumors about everyone with s- photographs [laughs] that are, that pe-

Yeah

... the celebrity didn't even know w- was taken, and we'll turn that into an entire content business.

It's like Uber for gossip. There's just, you put you guys to work.

We talk about-

You guys all have a camera on your phone.

We talk about this all the, we talk about this all the time, and I'm sorry to BJ. I know he's listening 'cause he's been a victim. But I think that the, um, the, Deux, DeuxMoi, the issue is, well, it's Gawker Stalker, which I know you remember.

Yeah.

Like, Gawker Stalker-

Yeah

... is the original version of this, but there's no pictures. So it's sort of like I saw M- Mary-Kate Olsen at whatever, Café Gitane, is not, it's not, like, dangerous 'cause it's pu-

Right

... you know what I mean? This is getting to the point where, like, you're doxing someone.

Yeah.

I think it is a surveillance state, and I don't really, I, I follow them, but I muted the story 'cause it's too much.

Mm.

Because I do love a paparazzi photo. What can I say? I'm a, I'm a sucker for that.

You're only human.

I love a blurry photo from across the street.

[laughs]

But I think it is, like, I don't know, because I think it's now, I mean, it's happened to civilians, right?

Yeah.

It's, like, happens when somebody, that DoorDash driver found the guy asleep and videoed him and posted it, and, and she went to jail because it was like, you can't d- you can't just do that. It's like when somebody films someone-

Mm

... in the locker room at the gym and thinks they're gonna get a lot of likes on it. It's like, I don't think we're moving further-

[laughs]

... away from that. I think we're [laughs] I think we're moving cl- more to it, I would say.

Yep.

Yeah, well, I mean, what I w- what I was asking originally, do you think that i- we're in a time where we're all fighting for clicks. You know, all these media industries are failing. Do you think it's possible that they're trying to create these narratives, like how they do with politics or whatever, where we're using our Substack platform or our New Yorker pieces or our Vanity Fair essays to sort of have these inter writer relationships with other people a- in an effort to m- to maybe get more clicks, or is this just the way the cards have, have laid?

Everything's moving to that direction, but at some point, is it just too much and everybody goes a different way? I, I don't know. I mean, it, again, it's like you're gonna click on it, and the problem is that love clicks are the same as hate clicks, and there's no way to tell the difference. And so the, the entire system-

Mm-hmm

... the data that you get about, like, what should we cover, uh, there's no way to know. It's like people actually like this, or they just want to know, or they ha-

Yeah

... feel like they have to know.

Yeah.

And the degree to which, like, our cultural capital now is not, like, oh, I know this thing and you don't know it, or I'm into this restaurant, uh, or I'm into this brand or whatever, but it's also, like, you have to know all the, the low-down stuff too in order to have a conversation with anybody. So the degree to which, like, the, our literacy, our media literacy is based off following the most salacious parts of media culture, I think that's also pretty baked in. I don't know. It's only getting more that direction.

I think there'll be a rebellion at some point, you know, small but mighty. The same way there's the group of kids now that are like, "We don't use our phones," you know. That's, that's, like, wack.

Yeah.

I think everything has a reaction eventually. But I think we are right. I think when it, there's money to be made off of it, it's a little harder to disengage.

Yeah, when it's the only way to make money. What do you think about, uh, as somebody who's prolific with the pen and, and written multiple books and many other things, how do you feel about Olivia Nuzzi writing, or claiming to write most of her book on her phone while hiking in Malibu? Do you believe that? Are you envious of that? Do you wish you had-

[laughs]

... that ability? Are you doing voice-to-text when you're on your Kyoto walks?

Uh, I mean, a lo- so many books are basically 140 pages of triple-spaced. Like, they're an extended essay.

Yeah. Hey, Da- David, do not come for me. I'm not even done yet, bro.

[laughs]

Do not do that. I'm trying to go quad, I wanna be the first guy to do quad-spaced [laughs]

110,000 words, chopped it down to 85,000 for this book, right? Chris-

That's right

... where you at right now?

You remember that well.

Not there. Not cl-

[laughs]

Not in that, not, not, I don't know. He's at the top of Mount Kilimanjaro. I'm at the bottom.

[laughs] He's looking for parking. [laughs]

If, we'll talk later. I'll give you some, give you some tips. But look, if you're doing a 40,000-word book, yeah, you just, you can transcribe that. I mean, or if it's just, I don't know. I, I do a very different thing. I do, uh, very overly dense, overly researched bits-

Mm-hmm

... and I c- and I can't, I can't just, uh-

Yeah

... bang it out by voice. Uh, but she can, and ev- if you go and look at the books that actually sell, they're all memoirs of famous people.

Yeah. One, one's not better than, one's not better than the other.

She, she's doing it right. I don't know.

They're just different styles.

I do a much less successful thing, so who am I to, to judge? [laughs]

Well, so you, so you're saying you do this exhaustive research, so then you have material to work fromYou know how, you're, you're like basic- you do all the research first and then break it down? Or do you do an outline first and then plug the research in?

Yeah, it's, it's like a combination of, of the two, but the most important thing is, like, never start with a blank sheet of paper. Like, every day I know the thing that I should have done yesterday, so I'm making up for it.

Mm.

So, like, the process is, is never sitting down and be like, "I gotta get inspiration." It's like, "Oh yeah, I gotta, I gotta cover Chocolate Rain 'cause I forgot to get to that paragraph."

[laughs]

So, uh [laughs] so basically, yeah, I mean, I, I always have an outline, and then the outline gets expanded out. But, like, as I read and as I do research, everything slots into the outline and then it, it gets sucked in. It's, it's like a very systematic thing.

Mm-hmm. Okay.

It's like I can... I- it's akin to building a building. It's like an arc- architectural project. It's not a-

Did you b-

It's not poetry. Mm-hmm.

Did you dis-

Mm-hmm

... did you discover this a- as a... Did it, like, become your process or this is how you book one? This is like, "This is how I do this."

It became my process just 'cause I, it, I can move really fast if I did it that way.

Mm.

I mean, that's, I, I think the s- speed is important to me, and it's gotta be.

You gotta go fast.

If you've got structure and you've got the notes, you, you can bang it out.

Mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

But, I mean, you were, you were mentioning that the, the sort of self-transcribed memoirs are the ones that sell the most and then everyone clamps onto, and I, I, obviously that's true, and I think that those kind of can oftentimes burn bright and then sort of have a, a shorter tail. Whereas what you're doing, I feel like it's almost the, the inverse where if you're writing about history that happened a year ago, my ass already, already-

[laughs]

... knows all of that stuff.

Yeah. Yeah.

But then what you're doing, I feel like, you know, as, as the decades click on, you could experience even a, a gain in, in sales and revenue as this information becomes more valuable and scarce.

Mm.

It's a long-term strategy. I'm, I'm thinking about the children, and there are people who are born right now who don't know who the Hawk Tuah girl is.

Right.

And at some time they're gonna wanna know-

Shudder to think

... what was that about.

I hate that. I hate that. Imagine not living through the Hawk Tuah era.

[laughs] Yeah.

Imagine the void in your heart that, that there would be there.

I mean-

Ah, it's crazy to think about

... that's, without her, without Hawk Tuah, How Long Gone would've never even, I would've never even thought about it.

[laughs] But how do you feel that she traded millions of dollars away? Uh, she, she took the million dollar, $2 million rug pull or whatever, and then had to give away the podcast, that the pod- podcast got sacrificed so that she could go into hiding. I mean, she, she can't do Hawk Tuah and rug pull.

[laughs]

When you rug pull, you-

Yeah, yeah, yeah

... you're making a deal with the devil that you are no longer a podcaster.

We can't come back from that.

Let me say this, guys. I don't think sh- uh, Talk T- Hawk Tuah handled it maybe the right way. If that's a surprise to you guys, maybe the fame was too much.

Her name is Hailey.

Hailey Welch.

Maybe it was too-

[laughs]

Maybe Hailey Welch was just f- flabbergasted by the fame and attention, and she was unable to cope and maybe acted accordingly. What is a Revolve Man, Jason? It's... Oh, funny you ask.

What's a Revolve Man?

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Genuinely, yeah. It's one of those things, we're all busy. Let's say we got an important dinner coming up at the end of the week. It's Tuesday. You're working every single day. You don't have time to go shopping and try clothes on and blah, blah, blah, or even just browse. You know, Revolve, it's all there. It's all curated for what you want, and then you click buy, you go to bed. Couple days later, that shows up in packaging that's a little nicer than y- the other places you're buying clothes from, and you've got a nice look for the big night out. And then you're like, "Wait a minute. I don't even have to return this because I enjoy this clothing and I wanna wear it again another time," versus all those dumb other websites. So whether it's a big night out, a wedding, a trip, or you just need something last minute that actually works, Revolve Man always has it. Go to revolveman.com/howlong to shop and use code HOWLONG for 15% off your order, free two-day shipping, easy returns. It just makes everything easier. That is revolve.com/howlong and use the promo code HOWLONG to get 15% off your entire order. Offer ends soon. Don't sleep on it. And you don't need clothes too. You can get just, you know, a cool candle or an incense gift for a baby shower, whatever it is, revolve.com/howlong.

Hi, Talk House Network listeners. It's your old friend Nels Cline from Wilco here. Wilco is touring this summer, and we'd love to see you somewhere on the road. We're playing shows this June and July in Rochester Hills, Michigan; Chautauqua, New York; Lafayette, New York; Bethlehem, Pennsylvania; Vienna, Virginia; Forest Hills, New York; Portland, Maine; Tulsa, Oklahoma; Memphis, Tennessee; LaGrange, Georgia; Charleston, South Carolina; Virginia Beach, Virginia; Wheeling, West Virginia; and Columbus, Ohio. Plus, there are even more dates, some with Willie Nelson, that I didn't even mention here. So please go to wilcoworld.net to see the full list of dates. We'll see you on the road this summer.

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Look, if you, if your job was working in a spring factory in a town in Tennessee that no one's ever heard of, then maybe taking the rug pull-

[laughs]

... was the right option. Who are we to judge?

I think there's a decent chance that maybe she was taken advantage of by other people-

Mm-hmm

... perhaps. I don't know if-

By the crypto... You think the crypto people aren't all above board-

[laughs]

... is what you're saying?

I just don't know if she was a master of blockchain before all of this fame. [laughs]

Who was that? Somebody that I was talking to, they were like, "I don't even know what blockchain..." Oh, oh, Tina Brown was like, "I don't know what blockchain means," and I was like, "This is so s- we need more of this."

Yeah.

We need more of this.

Old bitches winning, bro.

The, the exploration of crypto and h- and sort of all of that digital art and how everyone in our lives was telling us that if we didn't get into that we were f- the dumbest guy alive, and I was gonna be poor for the rest of my life.

Mm-hmm.

It seems like we just glazed over that. Like, it just came and went, and there was no real, like, not, like, persecution, but kinda like, "Yo, this was all fake." [laughs] Like, this was all kinda fake.

My Ethereum's only gone up, bro.

You can't get it off your phone, though.

[laughs]

You have all this Ethereum, and if you ever wanna use any of it, it's impossible. You have to have, like, a PhD and five different apps.

[laughs]

But, like, there was a time a couple years ago when y- as you said, it felt like, okay, I'm going... Uh, everyone else in the entire world's gonna be a billionaire because of this stuff, and I'm just gonna not be into it.

Mm-hmm.

But then I realized, uh, basically the people with the worst instincts in the entire world are gonna get super rich to the degree that money will be really uncool because it will be like, "Oh, you have money. Oh, you're one of those NFT guys."

Whatever you gotta tell yourself, bro.

Yeah.

Whatever you gotta tell yourself.

I wish I could say that, but if I had a penthouse in Miami and three super cars, I'd probably be better off right now.

Yeah. If I had a pet lion-

[laughs]

... I wouldn't be talking to you fucking guys.

No, I do think they made, they, the... I think that the Bored Ape of it all is maybe the worst.

Right.

I think that was visually so offensive, whereas the other stuff, I can barely comprehend it, so it didn't offend me as much. It was just something that I kept having to hear about from people who are not, who I feel are not as smart as I am-

[laughs]

... telling me that I'm an idiot for not doing it. That, that, that is the, my relationship to that.

Did you sell your Bored Ape? [laughs]

Uh, yeah. I, I unloaded, I, I unloaded all of my apes, and, and, you know, I didn't do super well on them, but, you know, here we are.

Look, he didn't, he didn't lose money.

Jason, have you ever DJ'd? Did you ever DJ a Bored Ape Yacht Club party?

No, thank God.

Okay.

I, I would've been... I mean, I guess if I would've been paid in Bitcoin, I probably would've fucking done it.

He's doing, he's doing Mar-a-Lago next week, but he, he won't do the-

[laughs]

He won't do that stuff, bro. That's too far.

Yeah, I don't, I'm not in the Bored Ape-

Him and Keith, he's doing scratches on Keith Urban's set, so it's gonna be a pretty sick mashup at the au- [laughs] at Mar-a-Lago.

But we-

[laughs]

... we did do an NFT, but, you know.

I think we should all be proud of ourselves and riding on a high horse that we were able to resist that-

Mm

... because I think that, like-

Hooray for us.

Yeah. It, it really felt like-

But I also know multiple people who have bought homes because they have Bitcoin.

See, I hear... I, I don't, or maybe I do, uh, but I don't know someone who did that as successfully as it looks on Instagram. Uh, let me-

Mm-hmm

... let me say that.

I think it, I think it happened sort of before the, the, that NFT era happened.

Yeah, that's true.

Like, the homie that had it-

Yeah, before it popped, that's true

... in 2013, and just, like, I, I got, like, two grand into it, and then 10 years later I have $900,000 type shit.

Yeah, yeah.

And I just quietly bought a house in Highland Park kinda thing.

But all the crypto stuff was alternative culture, right? It's like that's what alternative culture is in 2025, is financial speculation.

[laughs]

No?

I hate, I, I hate to agree with you, but you're, you make a point. I mean, I think it's just, like, alternative culture to me means-

Alternative to what? To being poor? [laughs]

No, I think that it gives, I, I think it gives these people that are not... Like, uh, to me, uh, to me and to us, alternative culture probably relates to the arts most, most often.

Yeah.

But I think this offered an opportunity for people who don't even know what alternative culture means to do something that felt back, like a pushback on-

Right, right, right

... sort of societal norms.

I'm looking for an alternative to going to college and getting a job.

Yeah, like, but, but I'm, like, a jock or whatever, or, like, I just like-

Mm-hmm

... to party, and, like, I don't care about... You know, I, I'm not... Uh, culture doesn't mean going to the museum to me.

Mm-hmm.

It means some- it means something different to everyone, I guess.

What, what was your favorite museum in Conyers? What's, like, the top three? [laughs]

Con- Conyers. Top three, top three museums in Conyers wa- there was a Wendy's-

[laughs]

... there was a Shoney's, and there was, there were two McDonald's on both sides of town, so it was pretty sick in that way.

Uh, I asked... So my brother lives in Athens. I think I told you this already, but I asked him, "What's, what's Conyers?" Like, "What... Tell me, tell me about Conyers." He's like, "Oh, it's really famous 'cause it had a big syphilis outbreak."

That's true. Well, famously it was a PBS special, but I, just to clear this up, it was at a, it was at the other high school.

Okay.

It was at the other... It wasn't at Heritage High School. It was at Salem High School. But it is, like, a, you can get it on DVD, I believe. It was that, it was, like, a really produced, like-

You can get syphilis on DVD? Oh, the documentary. Got it.

The docu- the documentary. But Conyers is, um, Conyers, uh, is, is not a place that I'm, um, looking to go back to-

Mm-hmm

... even for a visit, you know? But why does your brother-

It's no Snellville.

It's n- why does your brother live in Athens?

Uh, he's a doctor at the hospital there. I don't know. I mean, if you're, if you live in the South, Athens is one of the top cool places you could be, you know?

Uh, I, yes, but it's, it's too far from the airport-

Yes

... is the only thing I would say.

Yeah.

It's like a, if you want to go to the airport-

Two hours

... it's, yeah, it's-

Yeah

... a two-hour thing, which I think a lot of musicians live there.

It's fine for most people, not for you, Chris, a known traveler.

But it's such a, it's such a, like a... I mean, less so now, but a lot of, like, professional musicians live there, and I'm like, that just seems like a bad idea considering how often you're having to leave, you know?

What are the cool cities in the South these days? 'Cause when I was growing up it was Chapel Hill, Austin, Athens, maybe Nashville.

I think Ash- Asheville, North Carolina seems to be on the up and up.

Asheville's great. I love Asheville. Yeah.

Asheville's cool. I think I like Charleston the best.

Yeah.

I mean, it's a little more com-

Charleston's great

... it's lar- a little more commercial, but it's, it has more to offer, I think.

Like how Old Navy has a big selection, same kind of vibe.

That's about it, though. I don't... I mean, Nashville's blown out. Austin is blown out.But Austin and Nashville are blown out in a way that I hate to admit I don't mind, because those places never contained such culture to me. It's like I'd rather there be an Equinox there than not.

Mm-hmm.

I don't see, like I can still get a breakfast taco.

Shitty with Equinox is better than just shitty.

Yeah, like I don't romanticize like Richard Linklater's Austin, you know?

[laughs]

That's not my, that's like not my thing. But I think the South is, I think Houston and Dallas, I think all those places are thriving. Like I think they're doing-

Really? Okay

... I think they're doing quite well economically because obviously there's no taxes, you know? And that's h- and it's hot. That's all you really need to attract people at this point.

And Landman and 1823 and Yellowstone and all those shows-

Yeah

... are really making the wide open plains of Texas, uh, you know, appealing.

What do you, what do you think about all of this sort of, what do you think about the American flag of it all? The fact that all of this, all of these shows and, and movies are sort of pandering to, they're not, it's not super obvious, they're walking a line, but we know who it's for, and it's partly for me, it's partly for somebody else.

Yeah, I mean, the interesting thing about it is just how, uh, non-aspirational it is for anyone outside of the United States.

Yeah.

And so, you know, the United States used to be the center of pop culture, and one of the things I kind of track in the book is the degree to which, I, I still think America's pulling most of the weight, but that it's producing a bunch of things that just have no appeal outside of its borders. And so, I mean, K-pop is interesting the degree to which it can appeal to all these people in, in South America or, or, uh-

Mm

... it's not just a, an East Asia thing. But yeah, I don't know if-

Mm-hmm

... I don't know if, uh, people in the UK are really psyched to, uh, to watch Yellowstone.

Well, let's, let's use Japan, your, your home, as a case study. Famously loved the Western culture of America from the '50s, '40s, '30s, '60s, all that stuff, and now we are returning back to cowboy-related content and dramas. Do Japanese people romanticize watching Yellowstone and Landman and all these Paramount shows with-

Absolutely not

... old white guys?

I don't think a single person has seen any of, any of them. [laughs]

[laughs]

Yeah.

Okay. Landman does sound like a grocery store in, in Japan, though, I will say.

[laughs] I mean, Landman is good as hell, and, but I also do think that it's not, uh, super ripe for exporting-

Yeah

... based on the co- I mean, I think, but I do think there's a time where we romanticize, like, cowboys, which is kind of what it is.

Mm-hmm.

But maybe we've just mo- we've moved on.

Chris, Chris, what did you think? You've been to Korea. What'd you th- I know you've already talked about this, but what did, what did you think?

I'm good. I'm good.

Okay. Yeah.

I don't know if I need to go back. I would go back. I'm going, I'm going to Tokyo for the first time at, in, in December.

Let's talk.

And I'm very excited.

Yeah.

And, yeah, of course. But I think that, um, I think that K-pop is one of the hardest things for me to understand maybe ever in my life-

Mm

... culturally. Because the music isn't good, and the c- the, like, whole thing-

Some of it is

... feels so corrupt and wild. That's what's fascinating to me. But it seems to be that that's just fine. Like, these people are basically on, like, indentured servants, and everybody's cool with it.

[laughs]

That, that's the most-

Yeah

... fascinating thing to me.

Yeah, but is, is Tate McRae and Somber, you know, is, is their life-

Yes

... that much different?

Yes, 100%. They can have sex and do-

We don't, we don't know that

... they can have sex and do drugs without having to go into jail.

Right. [laughs]

Like, that, this, that, that all, I mean-

I'm not talking about the legal ramifications in each country, but more so in the way that they're being incubated by the higher powers that be, and, and everything that they do is being controlled with a silent hand.

I don't think, I don't think anything compares to K-pop in that way, 'cause they're, like, bred for it. Like, I mean, they're literally put into, like, a camp when they're children.

They all have the same body, same face.

Disney-

Yes

... Disney Club, bro. Disney, same shit.

Chris, how often do you drink K-pop flavored Coca-Cola these days?

[laughs]

I never had a sip when I was there, and I tried to bring one back to have Jason try it, and it was too big to go through security. But they made me a can with my name on it, and I was like, "This is pretty sick, actually." A- and then I was try- I was literally like, "I'm gonna bring it to Jason to get an expert to taste this," and at security, they were like, "Nah, chief."

I dr- I drank a Coca-Cola last night while discussing the new Katseye single, so I feel like I got pretty close to whatever it is you guys are talking about right now.

Same thing. Same thing. Yeah, same thing. I don't know, but is the, do you think that the Korean and Japane- like, when companies like Coca-Cola or whatever try to do something specifically for these markets, how different is it than the regular products that we're getting in America? Like, do they really tailor it, or is it sort of a packaging thing?

When I was growing up, there was always a rumor if you went to the Coca-Cola museum, they had, like, a room where you could taste all the Coca-Colas.

That's real.

Yeah, yeah.

I've been there several times.

And it's like they have flower-flavored drinks from Japan. It just sound- sounded like Japan was on, like, a, a different dimension, but I don't know. It's all kind of the same.

They've got the miso. They've got the gochujang Coca-Cola. It's all there.

Yeah, and the, you know, once in a while I go to the, the convenience store, and there's Mellow Yellow, and it's like-

Yeah

... oh, I didn't expect to see that.

[laughs]

But I know there's Dr. Pepper. There's Coke. It's just, it's all, it's all the same. Everything's homogenized everywhere.

I, I would agree, but I th- but then there's, like, the, the fascination with, like, the 7-Eleven, you know? And how it's, like-

Yeah

... not a place where people go to take a piss. It's, like, a place you eat dinner.

[laughs]

That, that to me is, like, one of the-

I wouldn't-

... biggest differences.

I wouldn't go that far. I wouldn't go that far, but it's like the egg-

Just a table for three

[laughs]

... the egg sandwich is, is, uh, it holds up as, as, as a thing.

Right, right, right. It'll cure what ails you.

I don't, I mean, there's so much preservatives in the food, I can't, I can't eat it.

Mm.

I know, sure, but I guess the, in, in, there's also something that's happened in America in the last, I would say, 10 years where it's, like, sort of romanticized by upper middle class people to enjoy fast food-

Yes

... as, like, a treat and talk about it, like, whether it's Chick-fil-A or Raising Cane's.

Like Chrissy Teigen saying, like, "Here's my McDonald's order, you guy" like that kind of thing?

It's, it's become, yeah, it's become, like, a, a, I don't know. It's, it's just different. It's not looked down upon, you know?

Not at all.

It's, it's looked, it's looked as sort of just, like, participating in, like, American or, like, low culture, I guess, is a way to put it.

That's what happens when the dumb dumbs are in charge.

Eh.

I, but I mean, I do love American fast food, and, and Chick-fil-A is a flavor you can't get unless you're at a Chick-fil-A. Uh, maybe if you fry a pickle, you can probably, like, replicate it a bit, little bit, but.

I mean, McDonald's is a flavor that you can't get anywhere else, but that doesn't necessarily, I mean, I don't think that anyone thinks that the food is good, but I think it's, like, a chemical reaction that they have in their mi-

Yes

... like, nobody likes Zin, but nevertheless, I'm taking a Zin, you know what I mean?Like, it tastes like you're chewing aluminum foil, but you keep coming back to it, you know? Smoking cigarettes is disgusting, but it's also sick.

Wait, are you smoking cigs over there?

You talking about Jason or me?

I know Jason's smoking cigs.

[laughs]

I'm talking about you.

Oh.

'Cause you got your little personal... You got your personal ashtray.

I got a pack of Armenian cigarette. Vic, our, our driver, if anyone needs a driver in LA, just let me know, I'll... But I referred him to somebody, and he's like, "Jason, you smoke, right? Mr. Jason?" I go, "Yeah." He pulls out a pack of cigarettes from his trunk, Armenian cigarette, and I was like, "I'm not gonna smoke this shit. I smoked one last night." I shouldn't have doubted the Armenians, uh, in the cigarette space. They, they, they know... They do more research than anyone.

[laughs] Yeah, dude, they're the e- yeah

Outside of the Chinese.

I was in Europe, and I, I did get very, uh, seduced by the hand-rolled.

Mm.

Like, hand-rolled culture is pretty cool, and then you can get tobacco that actually has flavor, that doesn't just taste like, you know, chemical processed whatever w- the, the ones in the boxes. So you can get... I mean, I... You can get the vanilla, and you can get, like, a Baja Blast one probably too. I mean, they, they're a little bit like-

It doesn't have those fake chemicals. You can just get a nice normal-

[laughs]

... Baja Blast, you know?

But you [laughs] but you can get, like, Virginia or something-

Right, right, right

... or, or, uh-

You can get mango, you know? Virginia too

... you can get some nice, nice ol'- old school tobacco flavor. Uh-

Mm-hmm

... but I, like, something is, is wrong in my body with nicotine, and so I just... E- every time I'm massively hungover, it's because I'd, like, accidentally smoked a cigarette, so I, I have to, I have to be careful.

Ah.

Mm-hmm.

It contributes. Well, what is your... So as a person who writes what you write, can you just enjoy something?

[laughs]

Or do you, is your, is your wheel turning too much to sort of just be like, "That was good," and not feel like you need to find a place to-

Can you? I can't.

I can't. No, I can't. But he's doing it at a different... He's doing it at white paper level. We're, we're doing it at bathroom level. [laughs]

No, I can absolutely not enjoy it, uh-

[laughs]

[laughs]

... without thinking about it too much. But, I mean, so for example, like, this new Geese album, I really like this new Geese album at, like, a basic level.

Yeah.

I just like listening to it, but at the same time, I'm, I have this, like, pang of doubt, which is like, am I being reactionary by being into this Geese album? Is this, uh... Should I be rejecting these rock and roll conventions?

Mm.

I- is there... Am I gonna get shit for, for liking this Geese album too much because we're at the point where Geese is overrated? Like, the summer of 2001, when I moved to New York, y- The Strokes were, oh my God, The Strokes are the biggest deal, and then within, uh, three weeks it was, The Strokes are overrated. And then within-

[laughs]

... two weeks it was, The Strokes are, uh, yes, they're overrated, but they're actually incredible. So, like, with Geese, like, I'm, I'm very worried, like, what part of the cycle am I in, et cetera, et cetera.

Mm.

So yeah, there's no way I can-

You have to trust yourself, bro

... no, I, I, I think a lot about-

The same way you trusted yourself about The Strokes.

Uh, yeah, I didn't ha- I didn't have an opinion about The Strokes. They were, uh-

Okay

... Hard to Explain is definitely top, top 10 great song of the 21st century, though.

Right.

I-

I played that song at a wedding in New York three days ago.

It's good for-

Still goes

... karaoke too. Uh, it's a, it's a good-

Mm-hmm

... karaoke track. But, uh, no, I, I, I way overthink everything, and, uh, I don't know, that's... I like stuff. I mean, I like stuff a lot, but even if I like it, I'll, I'll think about it, uh, and, and think about what other people are saying about it too.

Like, you, you're not able to listen to Psy's Gangnam Style because you know that he's a draft dodger and has been arrested-

[laughs]

... for marijuana possession, whereas most people in the world are just able to enjoy his perfect music.

I didn't know that at all, but the funny thing about that, that track was the degree to which it, there was, like, a million think pieces.

I read it in your book.

Yeah.

[laughs]

But there's a million, a million think pieces that were like, oh, that song is actually this incredibly subtle, uh-

Here we go

... satire of class consciousness and creati-

They-

The references to coffee-

Mm-hmm

... are, are, uh, talking about the, the class stratification. And then I-

It's basically like a Clash song.

Yeah, and then I read the lyrics and I'm like, what the fuck are they talking about? It just, like, literally just there's, there's four references to coffee and that's what it was about.

It's kombucha rock.

And then the hey, sexy ladies. Uh, that's about, that's about it.

[laughs]

I think, I think actually one of my fact checks was, uh, I'm sorry, it's not hey, sexy ladies, it's just hey, sexy lady. It's like-

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Thank you.

'Cause he's a one-man. He's-

Yeah.

[sings] Hey, sexy lady.

Psy's a one-kind, one-woman kinda guy. He's not a philanderer. We know that. But I, I've seen some cool photos of Psy, like, backstage at shows and, like, hanging out with other people, and he's like... I, it was just nice to learn that this guy, who you think is just this one-hit wonder, cheesiest dude of all time, like a Mambo No. 5 type of scenario, but he's actually a sick-ass guy. Like, he's done a lot of cool stuff, and he just happened to have the biggest song of the last, whatever, 50 years in Asia, you know?

I had a friend who-

And now he's a, now he's be- he's like a Guy Fieri of Korea.

[laughs]

I had a friend who worked with Psy because he spoke Korean and helped, like, in America, and then he became part of the team. And to this day, some of the greatest stories I've ever heard about touring-

Oh, yeah

... was, like, the heyday of Psy and how much money was being exchanged for him to do that one song all... It was so global that I, I, I don't know if... Honestly, it might've been the last of its kind as far as-

Mm-hmm

... like, sort of a novelty, but really had a tail. Like, he d- he was-

Yeah

... probably doing that shit for five years.

Oh, yeah.

Power of YouTube.

Lil Nas X, when that was big, he, who was not traveling over the world to perform that song. It was just kinda like, eh.

It felt very US-focused.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was not on the global scale.

[laughs]

Um, so a couple, couple notes from the book I wanted to go over.

Hit me.

S- speaking of music, I didn't know that Justin Bieber's mom was against him signing with Scooter Braun-

[laughs]

... because he was Jewish.

No, well, she talked to her church elders-

[laughs]

... and they blessed it.

Duh.

Uh, yeah, that's an incredible quote. That's from a New York Times story.

D- does she not, does she not know how Hollywood works? You gotta... I mean, come on.

She didn't know.

I guess she's, yeah, she's from O- Outer Ontario.

Yes.

She, she learned quickly that it was a wise choice to side with Scooter Braun.

The, the church elders knew. They knew how things worked.

[laughs]

They, they blessed it.

They're like, "Hold on, he fucks with Usher? Let's do this."

Look, they're not going to heaven, but they have a way with these deals, you know what I mean?

[laughs]

[laughs] Um, and I also didn't know-

Yeah

... that, that Bieber signedCarly Rae Jepsen and, like, made "Call Me Maybe," like, a thing

Yeah, I mean, the, the urban legend-

In the way that Usher signed-

Yeah

... him, in the way that Akon signed Lady Gaga

My understanding of the chain of events that led to Call Me Maybe is that the song was being played on radio in Canada, because Canada has that rule where they have to play, like, 60%-

Mm-hmm

... Canadian music-

Yeah

... or someone, some Canadian's gonna fact-check this. But they have to play Canadian music, so they're playing it, and he hears it on the radio, he's like, "This is incredibly catchy," and then he calls Scooter, and it's like, "We gotta sign her," and then signs her, and then they make the kind of viral video, and that's what-

Yeah

... makes it, makes it go. But it looked like some sort of just amateur fan project. That Bieber's just into her, and that's why it got big, but there's a lot of machinations, you know?

Can I ask a quest- can I ask a question about the... I don't know what the viral video is. I'm not-

There's like a video of him-

... hip to this

... and Selena, like-

Yeah

... they posted, like, a selfie of them, like, singing the song-

Oh

... on, on social media-

Okay, okay, okay

... and then obviously that's all you have to do to have something catch fire

Like a low-budget smartphone video of them-

Yeah

... lip-syncing the song in their house

Probably on Twitter, like pre-Instagram even maybe

Yeah

Okay. That, that does, th- that will lead to success. I mean, that still would lead to success.

Oh, yeah

Okay, so you, you wrote about when, like, the, the written word and, and text-based media was sort of replaced by memes and imagery and things like that, and that's where we're living right now, and now-

That's why, that's why I wrote a book. Yeah, exactly. [laughs]

Yeah. Which could not be adapted into a screenplay or a film at all, unless we get, um, you know, a great docu- uh, Kenny Burns on the horn or something like that. But, um, that'd be cool. You should work with him. But now that, now that video is sort of king and, uh, everything is moving into that space, and it's, you know, it's sort of the new JPEG in so many ways because any- anyone can create it and edit it, and it's a moving photo, so we like it more, what do you... Do you think that something is next? Are you predicting the rise of something that will be post-video, or is that sort of where things end?

I, I really think we're going back to real life in the sense that s- like Sora is gonna make it where you can, by prompt, create a video of anything, right? Like, if you think it-

Yeah

... it's pretty good right now, it, you know, in five years it's gonna be... Like, make me a Scorsese film, and then you're gonna have a Scorsese film.

[laughs]

So, like, everything-

We're moving past Will Smith eating spaghetti pretty quickly.

Oh. [laughs]

[laughs]

Yeah. Th- there's not, that's not even gonna be weird and, and quirky anymore. It's just gonna be-

Mm-hmm

... like every single thing you see online will be generated by your aunt, and, uh, it'll be, your aunt is just making, like, uh, a, a new seasons of Real Housewives in, in cities that never existed.

Oh.

And so you're never going-

Interesting

... like, everything online is going to feel less valuable, and all media's gonna feel less valuable, and all video will feel less valuable. And so, like, the only thing you'll trust is to see things in real life.

Mm.

And so I, I, uh, we may be moving towards just, like, a complete destruction of all mediation. You heard it here first.

Cool. Mediation. Okay, well-

Mediation

... mediation. So right now-

[laughs]

... a, a, a 13-year-old who's very savvy with the internet, they're able to really detect if something is AI-based or Sora-created versus, you know, your boomer grandma or-

Right

... your dad, easily tricked by a fake video, of course.

Or me. Or me.

Or, or, or Chris. I didn't wanna say.

[laughs]

Are we ever gonna reach a point where, like, are, are, are the young, smart, savvy kids always gonna be able to tell when something is real or fake on the internet, or are we gonna reach a point where-

Too good

... the, the uncanny valley is, is nonexistent?

I mean, you should assume that it's gonna get so good that you can't tell the difference anymore.

That's the whole point.

Yeah.

But, but also our human brains will get so good at knowing all of it, you know what I mean? Don't sleep on humans.

No, I think we should sleep on hum- I think I still-

I got a dope little computer up here in the mental.

[laughs] But, and you just, it's gonna make real life more valuable. Like, I really believe... Like, social media's making in-person things more valuable. You guys talk about restaurants all the time. It's because being in a restaurant, you can't-

Yeah, but people have been saying experiential marketing has been a hot new thing for the last 15 years, you know? Like, we gotta do things IRL.

But don't you like doing things IRL?

You know, I don't think we're going in that direction.

No, I think we are. I think we are.

Yeah. I do, I, I do too, but I think that overall humanity-

Oh, duh

... is doing less and less. Like-

I can't solve humanity

... like, we're DoorDashing our McDonald's more than going to McDonald's. Like, IRL is, we're losing the IRL battle. Nobody goes to a movie theater. Oftentimes people aren't dining out. They're having everything brought to them.

Well, I think one of the issues is you can't solve these problems for everybody.

Mm.

And one of the things about being an angsty teenager in 1992 that I think we've forgotten is I wasn't, I just didn't like heavy metal. I liked R.E.M., but I didn't care if the entire world-

Mm

... like, liked R.E.M. It was just like we had our own thing, and that, that was fine.

You were out and proud, and I think that's dope.

Yeah. But the thing y- so, like, what you're saying now is, like, is the normal human going to just sit around watching AI slop? Probably.

Mm.

Like, that's, but the, but in terms of, like, people who care, uh, people who care about video and music and all these things, they'll probably just wanna be real life.

There's always a, there's always a fucking rubber band. I mean, there's always, like, a, you know. When anything gets too popular-

Yeah

... people are gonna rebel, you know? Especially-

I forgot I'm gonna play this thing for you, but Suno, which generates music, right? You can give it a prompt, and it'll create, create a song. I was trying to break it, and so I gave it the lyrics to Wonderwall.

Mm.

And then just called the song Not Wonderwall, and said, "I want it in the genre of British, uh, uh, acoustic Britpop," and it literally just gave me Wonderwall.

Mm-hmm.

But it's like a bad Christian rock cover of Wonderwall. Uh, but it's like the exact phrasing and melody of Wonderwall.

Whoa.

Um, and so I, I can, I guess I can do that later. But it's, uh, I mean, the other thing about these systems is they're just obviously pulling from stuff that we've already seen before, and so it's just not, it's, they're never gonna be that interesting.

Now that we're in a, what, stuck culture, as they say?

Yeah, but we gotta... You know, you guys are fighting the good fight. You're gonna- you're, you're unstuck in it.

Thank you. Thank you. We- you were, you were discussing, um, recession pop, whatever, you know, 20 years ago, Katy Perry, Black Eyed Peas, all that stuff, and that is now fully back. Like, I mentioned DJing a wedding before. Like, if you play Black Eyed Peas' Let's Get Retarded in here, in 2025, it's the song of the night. And-

[laughs]

Is it a bummer that we are not creating the 2025 version of Katy Perry and Black Eyed Peas or all this stuff? Or, you know, are, are, are we really gonna be stuck forever just playing these old songs?

I mean, how many more Beatles films can they make? Like, I like The Beatles, but I don't need-

[laughs]

... I don't need every year to be marked by, uh, the release of a different Beatles documentary or film. And that's-

Hey, bro, it's the 33rd and a half anniversary. You have to celebrate that.

[laughs]

Like, what do you mean? Like, this is-

Yeah, but you're not a 67-year-old rich guy with a fucking Apple TV in his living room. When, when you're... Talk to me in 20 years, 30 years, when they keep cranking out Stereolab documentaries or Cibo Matto or whatever-

[laughs]

[laughs]

... and you're gonna be singing a different tune, brother man. [laughs]

[laughs] I love David looks you up.

[laughs]

He's like, "All right. You were right. Goddamn it. All right. The four- the fourth Stereolab documentary, I did buy the DVD. I did buy the DVD. It's too good."

No, look, if, if, if you complain the culture is, is stuck or is, is less interesting, y- the first criticism you get is something like, "Oh, you know, you just like what you like when you're, you're 18, and then you think it all goes to shit from there."

Mm-hmm.

And, like, my point is, is not that at all, which is that I want to be, I wanna be confused and, and totally, uh, outraged about the culture that's going on.

Mm.

I want, uh, like, I want beats that I don't understand. And so, like, when-

Okay

... like when Juke came out or something, it's like, "Well, that's weird. I don't understand what that is." I mean, drill is, like, I think similar, too, which is like, that's-

Mm-hmm

... that's really a, a new thing.

What happened to music? You want that... You wanna say that out loud when you listen to something for the first time.

Yeah. Uh, uh, like, the, the fantasy was always, like, y- yeah, the music would just get weirder and weirder until it was impenetrable, and it, it went the complete opposite direction. So, you know, when you listen to Taylor Swift-

I don't know, bro. I don't know. I don't know, bro. Too Hollis, I mean, I don't know if you've checked it out, but-

[laughs]

... you know.

Yeah.

I guess everybody's idea of impenetrable is different, though.

[laughs] But, like, so much of Taylor Swift is, like... I don't need to listen to Taylor Swift 'cause I've already heard every Taylor Swift song that's ever been-

Mm-hmm

... written.

Yeah, yeah. No, true, true, true.

Yeah. It's, it's like the restaurant that sells grilled cheese sandwiches. You're like, "I think I know what's gonna happen here."

[laughs]

But some of the... The, the thing with Taylor Swift is, I'm not an expert on her catalog, but a friend of mine who is made me a mix to encourage me to understand it.

Yes.

And I have to say that it's, it is, like, a lot... Like, it all does sound the same, but when it's, when one stands out, it's kind of unbelievable how good it is, if that makes sense.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Like, it does have a general, but then if you get 10 of the best ones, I'm like, "Oh, these are different." Like, this is very clearly different, but it is the same. It's very confusing.

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of it that just sounds like Lisa Loeb or something. And it's, like-

Yeah

... if you listen, if you had heard, heard Lisa Loeb or Natalie Imbruglia, it's like you know what these songs are.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They're just country versions.

Yeah. I mean, I, I agree with you, Chris. If you... Like, the, that episode of The Bear when, when Ebon is, like, he has a win with his daughter or something like that and, and Love Story comes on the radio and he starts singing it, you're like, you know.

Mm-hmm.

I... You can't help but be swept up in the way that when, uh, Lena Dunham would drop Robyn Dancing On My Own as they're jumping up on the bed, you're like, "This is the dumbest thing ever, but you got me."

I like it too much. Yeah. I mean, that's the po- New Robyn dropping, Jason. I'm hearing it's amazing.

It is. It is. I'm gonna go see her tomorrow for a, uh, an event powered by Acne Clothing Company.

Yo, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. [laughs] That's great.

Shout out to my Acne family.

I love when the Swedes get together and make something happen over in Los Angeles, you know?

Should we do a concert?

[laughs]

Um, okay. Do we wanna... I guess, I mean, we pretty much covered everything. Wired magazine called Tesla sex on wheels, not so much anymore.

[laughs]

Could you, um... I thought that was a funny one. Could not be-

Really funny

... further from the truth. Lastly, could you explain the, uh, the Vice 22 rule, and, uh, if that's something that you could see a version of happening today ever. Obviously not the same thing.

So the Vice 22 rule is that you hire 22-year-olds, pay them $22,000 a year and work them 42 hours a day.

[laughs]

Is that correct?

That's right.

Uh, I feel like I'm being quizzed. But, uh, that was, that was a thing. Uh-

Bitch, you wrote the book.

Yeah, but it's a long time ago.

It was. That was a year ago.

It's a lo- Yeah, it's a long time... It's a big book.

Wow.

It's a big book.

That's a good, that's a good theory, and I think that that is how... I think you could do the sa- same about BuzzFeed or, you know, like, all of that era.

Mm-hmm.

I think that wa- It was... I think they were able to create a culture where people wanted to be at work, and they didn't care how much they were being paid, and that's just, I think that's over.

Yep.

But what if, I mean, what if we all hate our life and, and we want an escape, we don't have any friends, we don't have a family or a social element? Are there people out there who don't need the money as much? Maybe they come from, from a background where it's fine and they can live off of whatever the equivalent of 22K a year is nowadays in order to feel like you're really part of something authentic and you're down to work hard and you're not gonna do it for your entire life, but it's like a boot camp for four years if you're not a fucking snowflake, you know what I mean?

That's crypto, right? It's not Vice anymore.

I mean, I mean, it's just, yeah, it's just kind of general hustle nomex culture-

I think if you, I mean-

... Andrew Tate kinda living.

I think if you look at any of these sort of media companies, those people are working there. Like, that, that kind of the 22-year-old who's down to, to work hard and maybe doesn't need the money f- whether it's because, you know, for whatever reason, 'cause they either don't care or because they have it from their family, like, those people still populate the Condé Nast tower. Like, that is still who powers-

Mm-hmm

... those businesses.

Mm-hmm.

And that can... I mean, that's... You go to any fashion, you know, it's like the intern this and the... You know, it's like that's still happening.

Yeah.

But I don't think it's, like-I think we glamorized it a bit, and now that would be like, "Why aren't you, why aren't you making more..."

Mm-hmm.

You- you know what I mean? Because you have the crypto guys being like, "It's so easy. Just download my program on Insert-"

[laughs]

"... and you can be a m- " You know, it's like that- that's the difference. It's not rewarded anywhere.

Right, right, right.

Also, if you talk to, like, editor-in-chiefs who came up through a lot of getting coffees for, for their, their former bosses and being assistants, they really dislike the degree that, like, Gen Z employees hate doing any work.

Yeah.

And are just like-

Yeah

... uh, and, and so I think the hustleness also is, is, is gone.

Mm-hmm.

It's a... I don't know.

It's gone.

It's like bifurcated. Like, there's, people are o- only hustling, and then there's a bunch of interns who, who don't think they have to hustle at all.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Damn. It takes two kinds.

Yeah, and then our, our man Tom Freston, he got rug pulled by Vice just the way the crypto bros are rug pulling nowadays.

Dude, the, the rug-

History repeating itself, and that's g- that can be all found in Blank Space-

[laughs]

... W. David Marks, which is available today on the newsstands. Cultural History of the 21st Century. I already knew all of this stuff, but it was... You're so good at writing that it was a, a pleasure to read still.

Thank you.

You're a... Yeah. You're... We, we value you, uh, as guys who do this for a living, and I think more people should value you.

That's very kind.

It's an important, it's an important thing to do, and I think we've, you know... Everybody's got no attention span, but I think some of this stuff is worth thinking about. Like, I don't... You know, is worth thinking about deeply. Not, not on a, in, like, an emotional way, but just in, like, a what does this actually mean-

Mm-hmm

... kinda way, because it's so easy-

Yeah. We gotta look to the past to know how, where to go forward, you know what I mean?

Deadass. That's what Jason was saying when he was trying to get his chick back.

[laughs]

Uh, but the, the book is everywhere. Go to barnesandnoble.com. Go to bookshop.org. You can hit McNally Jackson. We gotta get our guy on the, the hot best, the 10 best seller list. We gotta knock Keith McNally outta there.

Mm-hmm.

He's been on there for too long.

[laughs]

Let's, let's get some fresh blood in there. You know what I'm saying?

There's probably a pop-up store with a book signing soon, yeah?

Oh, definitely. Definitely that.

Well, thank you.

That's all, David.

Yeah.

Thank you for doing this.

No, thank you guys.

Hope you had fun.

I did.

I blow bubbles so big like Mrs. Puff. I be locked in like notices and look. Eating fancy like no this isn't chump. Who my bestie like everything plump. Big guy, big guy, big, big guy, big guy. SpongeBob big guy pants okay. SpongeBob big guy pants okay. Big guy, big guy, big, big guy, big guy. SpongeBob big guy pants okay. SpongeBob big guy pants okay. Big things bout to happen...

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