861. - Nat Wolff

[upbeat music] How Long Gone. A beautiful Thursday in, in Florida, God's country. Jason, how are you?

Just did a hike over at Mount Marin. It was actually a blast. It was easy. I don't know what, what got in me. Maybe it's the NAD shots. Maybe it's my creatine oatmeal, but I had no problem pumping up that hill.

Oh, well good. I know you're not a big cardio guy, so that's good to hear that you're, you're-

I know, right?

... seeing results already. And I, I wonder, do you think Marin now has sort of snipers set up just to, just in case Andrew Schulz is doing the same hike? Or do you think it's, it's fine?

No, no, no, I think Marin wants to fight.

I think Marin does want- [laughs]

He's, he'll scrap.

I do think Marin wants to... Imagine if... God, that's a g- well, the thing is Andrew Schulz is, like, a known... He loves boxing. You know what I mean? Which that could mean-

Oh, does he?

Oh, yeah. All those, all those fucking podcasters love to talk about boxing. It's the worst part of the po- like, it's the most boring.

Mm-hmm.

I'd rather listen to Shane Gillis talk about his take on modern art than listen to those guys-

[laughs]

... talk about their love of fucking boxing. It's the worst.

[laughs]

So what I'm saying is he's either, that either means that he's got some real moves or he's absolutely full of shit, and you know Marin can't do anything. He can barely play a Rolling Stones song.

[laughs] But Marin's got the rage in him, bro.

That's, [laughs] that's true. He's got-

He's got nothing to lose.

Got nothing to lose.

And if he went to jail it would be cool, whereas if Schulz went to jail it'd be like, oh.

Yeah, that's true. If Marin went to j- if Marin did a year for assault on a fellow podcaster, that would actually... That solidifies your legacy more than-

See?

... talking to Barack Obama twice. You make a good point.

It's like, uh, the photo of Bjork attacking the paparazzi for-

[laughs] Yes

... taking a picture of her kid.

Yes

It's like-

Classic. Classic. Right

... makes you cooler than anyone else instantly.

No, that's true. That's really true. I forgot about that. There's a couple examples of that. Um, all right, well let's talk about sports gambling.

[laughs]

Um, not something that I'm super, uh, knowledgeable about, but I, I noticed today there was some big news. You know, besides the east wing of the White House getting torn down to, to build a nondescript ballroom-

Mm-hmm

... quote-unquote, this is the biggest news. Apparently these, these players and coaches-

What's gayer than wanting to build a ballroom? You know what I mean?

That is, [laughs] that's, it's, it's, yeah, it's true.

Not, not defeating the allegations.

So the, what's got happening is these people were betting on sports obviously they play, play in, but there's a, a, a mob family that is sort of running the book. Is that the correct understanding?

There's some, there's some sort of crime family. I don't remember what it... Uncle Paulie knows.

Okay.

I don't remember what they're called.

[laughs] Yeah, yeah. His cousin's in it.

Uh, yeah, I... They're involved. I didn't know that kind of stuff still happened with, like, the rigged-

Yeah, same

... poker games and the stacked decks and the blah. But you know, uh, n- number two, nu- number two quote, uh, "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas," that's one. Number two, "Sucker born every day."

No, that's true. And I, I-

You would think that they wouldn't s- this would not... Like, th- these, these are mafia scams from over 100 years ago, 200 years ago. You know?

I like it. Like, I, I think it's cool. I just, I guess my, my issue is with sports, like, the way I think that we should just let them use whatever substances they want to increase their performance, like, let's just go fucking Marvel mode. Who cares?

Yeah.

I kinda, I kinda think you can't, [laughs] you can't turn sports into basically it's all about gambling now. That's all anybody cares about. Like, that's the... They're showing the lines on ESPN. Like, once you start doing that-

Mm-hmm

... how can you expect these guys to resist, you know, throwing a couple balls out of bounds, bricking a few threes on purpose?

Yeah, and what else... How else are you gonna compete with Wemby in your face? You, you have to use performance-enhancing drugs, melon salts, everything you could, you know, everything you can get your hands on to even try. But I think it's, you know, it's a sad reflection of, you know, it's the same reason why we can't watch our favorite television show without subtitles and on iPad and our phones with, you know. You know, we have to have multiple screens. We have to have our media goon cave going at all times just to satiate ourselves. So sports, the, the thing that has brought our entire nation and humanity together across the world, across the globe, is now not good enough, and you ha- you know.

Yeah.

What's the point of watching a game if you don't got a little action on it?

And I... Look, I get it. That, that's what would make me like sports probably, besides maybe old age.

[laughs]

You know, old age. But luckily I've avoided... Of all the vices that I've chosen, partaken, gambling is the, is the least attractive to me, thank God.

Mm-hmm.

Um-

I do simple gentleman's bets. You know, none of them are straight. The last bet was whoever loses this gets to, has to buy each other a fun dinner, and it's like-

[laughs]

... Addison Rae album sales, you know, or is the metric.

Yeah, yeah. What's-

You know, what's the over-under on that?

[laughs] Addison, Addison... Yeah, be- two straight guys betting on Addison Rae streaming numbers is pretty funny-

[laughs]

... uh, overall.

Loser buys bridges.

[laughs] No, if it was real man shit you go to Torrisi. Like, you know, that's real man food.

Ooh, yeah, yeah.

If you buy bri- yeah, if you're getting frog legs for the homie, that ain't, that ain't it, bro.

[laughs]

That ain't it. We should talk about this. So this, this goon cave long read from Harper's, uh, it's by a guy named Daniel Kolitz.

Long read. Took me hours to finish. [laughs]

I'm, I'm about halfw- I'm about halfway through it, and I gotta say, man, I... You know, I only knew about gooning top line I would say. I've never taken the, the time or effort to really delve deep into the cave.

You knew the, the basic shapes and forms of it.

Yeah.

You can wrap your head around it.

But wow, I gotta tell you what, Big Dan opened my eyes, and I would say it's in a, a, I did not know how bad this was. Like, I d- I really didn't-

Mm-hmm

... have any understanding of how deep and gnarly this is.

Yeah, I guess the c- the interesting part about it to me is, like, how for younger people, how, you know, jacking off-... like a fucking feral goat is now something that is, like, publicly, positively open and spoken about.

Yeah.

Whereas five years ago, shameful.

Yeah. Oh, I mean-

Unthinkable

... when we were growing up, it's very, I mean, 100%, so it's, uh, uh, so it's only gotten, you know, less and less, but yeah.

Like to, like to, you know, be a kid in high school or even younger and tell your mom, like, "I'm a gooner, Mom. Like, get out of my room. I'm trying to jack off," like, that, that is kind of gnarly to me.

[laughs] Yeah, it's re-

[laughs]

Yeah, it's really gnarly. Yeah, yeah. I mean, just all the terminology was pretty g- goon fuel, you know, instead of pornography. Th- these are fun words, I'll give them that.

Yeah, yeah.

Um-

It's fun. It's fun. Ethnic cleansing is a fun word for genocide, you know? L- there's lots of fun little twists and turns you can use.

I didn't know how bad this was, though. I'm just ... I, I'm gonna finish this, 'cause I'm pretty ... I, I, I've been, um, I, I've been reading a, a, books, and this is a nice break. [laughs] This, this goon-

[laughs]

... 10,000-word gooning story is a, is a nice break from, uh, a Richard Hell book.

A lovely reprise-

Yeah

... uh, from Richard Hell book. Okay.

I got the Richard He- and I got the new Gabrielle Hamilton, the chef from Prune. Um, her-

Oh, yeah

... her other book is amazing, so I'm having, I'm having ... Yeah, I'm reading a lot because I, I want to not watch as much TV, and it feels like I'm succeeding at that while, while I'm here, which has been nice.

It's a little bit easier when it's an army of one doing it-

Yeah

... when you're on your solo writer's retreat versus-

No, it's 100%

... you know, wanting to entertain the whole household.

Yeah, I don't have to ... Yeah, I don't have to watch r- uh, not that I don't want to.

I mean, Margot and Bean will watch whatever I want, but, you know, the other ones, so.

[laughs] Sure, there's some, there's some other loudmouths in the house. [laughs]

Yeah. Bean almost knows how to use the remote, but I can put it up high.

The problem is I get the notifications from Alex purchasing different episodes of The Real Housewives on my Amazon account.

[laughs]

So I do feel like I'm missing out, but I'm able to kinda keep my nose buried in the, in the, in the book if I, if I can keep to my plans.

No, just, yeah, float on the air of superiority knowing that you're tucking into a good book while the rest of the world is watching The Bachelor, Golden Bachelor-

Yeah

... or something, you know?

Yeah, yeah. I know who the real me is, though, and I'm not fooling myself. Um, but I can at least suspend disbelief for a couple more weeks, you know?

Well, these are, these are the desperate measures that people have to do during these trying times, and we are middle-aged adults, you know what I mean? Ima-

That's true

... like, to go back to these little gooners, imagine the idea of somebody who has 37 screens open just to climax-

[laughs]

... and they still live at home with their parents. Imagine telling that person, like, "Hey, why don't you read Don Quixote with you in a chair and a glass of water?

[laughs]

Could you do that? I'll give you $10 million if you can do that."

Not, [laughs] not Don Quixote with a chair and a glass of water.

[laughs]

Look, that's hard for anybody.

Oh, you know-

A gooner? They ain't making d-

... 50 year, 50 years ago, a, a, a, a book that would enthrall a nation.

Better than TV. Better than TV. They, you know, they, like it-

Mm-hmm

... it really grabs your attention, but no, not with today's, not when you have hentai at your fingertips. [laughs] It's tough to, it's tough to-

Mm-hmm

... kind of focus on the written word.

The, the thing that I liked ... I mean, I guess it's, it kinda has, like, a little bit of, like, a graffiti energy to it where you are m- you are making this art. You are crafting this thing. I'm talking about for the, for those of you who haven't read this article, there's, there's people now who are creating compilations and remixes and things like that of this content.

Yeah.

But it's a selfless act. Hello.

Hey, give us one second. We gotta finish the intro. Just give us a couple minutes.

Yeah, what was I talking ... What was I saying, Chris?

You were talking about the gooners and the-

Um, um, um

... uh-

Oh, oh, oh. So yeah, they're ... So, and comparing it to graffiti writers or s- or somebody who's maybe making, you know, bootleg remixes and illegal white label-

Yes

... pressings. Like, it's a, it's a selfless act.

Yeah.

You don't ... I mean, I guess you could make money off of it, but you, people, people are taking porn clips from all over the internet, crafting them into these compilations-

Oh, I see

... these mixtapes, and each person has different-

Yeah

... styles and flavors, and you'll-

Has anybody, [laughs] does anybody have eyes on DJ Drama right now? 'Cause he got in trouble for this before-

[laughs]

... so I just wanna make sure.

Yeah, and, and also similarly to, like, um, like Grateful Dead-

Mm

... bootleg recording people-

Tapes, yeah. Sure

... where it's like, oh, like certain people, certain names will rise up in the ranks as, like, a trusted name or, like, I really like how, um, you know, Snowflower18 records the, the hi-hat frequencies, so I usually record their-

[laughs]

You know, I, I, I usually buy her tapes or whatever. The same thing is happening. Like, this guy likes the same shit that I come to, and they make these dope videos, and they'll have 37 different screens, and each screen has multiple videos going. You know, it'll be three or four videos of their favorite people having sex all at the same time, and then they will sync it to music that's, like, hard pounding, like, rape dungeon techno, so the thrusts of organs are aligned-

Oh, nice

... with the rhythm.

Okay, now you're back. I feel like you're ... I feel [laughs] I feel like you've found your place in this art creation now, and you're thinking maybe-

Yeah

... it's time to pull out the, the chaos pad. [laughs]

But, but it's also a thing where it's like, yes, you could be the Fred again or the Jamie xx-

Sure

... of making cum videos, but, like-

Sure

... what are you gonna do? Like-

Sure

... be on the cover of Time Magazine? Like, no, like-

Actually, some people do call me the DJ Harvey of cum videos.

[laughs]

But I don't, I don't, I don't lead with that.

You, you, you're only ... You know, it's, it's true underground art, just like graffiti or whatever. Like, if you-

No, you're, you're right

... if you reveal yourself to be who you are publicly, you're at the very least facing public scrutiny, if not legal action.

If not some jail time. Jesus Christ. All right, we have a guest.

All right.

We have a-

On that note, we have a beautiful guest today. Matt Wolf is in the building.

Matt Wolf is in the building. Uh, he's got a new, uh, movie out, Play Dirty. He's got-

Fellow gooner.

He's got a new record out with his bro.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, he's been, he's in, he- he's been beasting for year, literally since he was a child.

Mm-hmm.

Um, he's worked way harder than Jas- uh, he's worked way harder than Jas and I have ever worked, so we need to get into that with the GOAT.

Okay. Let's give Matt a jingle.

This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian, Stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's, uh, it's trying to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world, and I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions.

A lot of questions, but how often? 'Cause we do this podcast three times a week, and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do?

Three times a week, and I, I, I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe gonna be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess.

The Guardian is not some billionaire-owned platform. They're not afraid to say what they wanna say, brother.

Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in, in what, uh, journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at, at [laughs] Stateside.

Mm-hmm.

But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch on YouTube. It's three times a week, and, and who couldn't use more news? You know, especially, especially when it's, when it's not, you know, from here, let's say.

[laughs]

Give, give it a, give it a listen. Give it a listen. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by our best friends at BetterHelp. Jason, we're, we're deep into May, which is, uh, Mental Health Awareness Month, and this is just a reminder that whatever you're going through, you don't have to go through it alone. Life is a damn journey. Some days feel good and others feel overwhelming. Whatever's keeping you up at night, it's easy to feel like you have to figure it all out on your own. But the truth is, no one has all the answers. Well, and no journey should be alone. Having someone with you to listen, to understand, and to support you can really make all the difference.

I agree, Chris, and sometimes, you know, it, it's nice to be talking to somebody even if they're not even listening, even if you don't even get to be in the same room with them because what you're doing is you're admitting these things to yourself and that's the most, that's the most rewarding thing you can do sometimes. So you can have a great little therapy sesh with your perfect therapist at BetterHelp. Choosing between over 30,000 people so you can get the right one just for you. Over six million people globally are using it, and you know, have some breakthroughs. Go on that walk after your BetterHelp sesh. You know, whatever it might be. Get a nice little lunch all for yourself, maybe a non-alcoholic kombucha, and just think and be like, "Damn, I really am him." You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have somebody with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/howlong. That is betterH-E-L-P.com/howlong.

Every time I go to the doctor, I walk out of that bitch feeling dumb. I got no real info. This guy in a white coat just say, "You're fine," you know, "Drink more water."

He knows how to charge my copay.

Exactly.

That's about it.

As if, as if I could drink more water, Doctor. I, I don't get data. I don't get a game plan. I just get a pat on the ass, "Get out there and, and make it better." But SuperPower is doing something different. SuperPower sends a licensed professional to your home, or you can visit a nearby lab if you're a little freak. It's a simple blood draw, one simple blood draw with over 100 biomarkers, which is way more than what you usually get, and it unlocks a real understanding of your body. Uh, their app includes detailed information on your heart, liver, thyroid, hormones, metabolism, vitamin and mineral levels, and even environmental toxins. Ooh-ooh.

[laughs]

So from disease prevention to treating that annoying brain fog or simple optimizing for your gym game, let's go, SuperPower is more comprehensive and advanced system out there.

Make this year the year we all stop guessing about our health with SuperPower. For a limited time, How Long Gone listeners get $20 off to unlock their new health intelligence. Head over to superpower.com and use the code HOWLONG for $20 off your membership. That is code HOWLONG, and after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about SuperPower. Do us a favor if you could and tell them How Long Gone sent ya, and that'll just support us. Thanks. Nat, do you have headphones on by chance?

I was gonna lie and say that I did. Um.

You know we can see you, though.

[laughs]

[laughs]

Or you could see me. I was gonna think that I didn't. I don't because the ones that I have, um, I, you aren't gonna be able to hear me through them.

Okay.

Do you think that'll be okay?

I mean, are you able to not be outside on the street?

I'm by the water, but yeah, there's, like, helicopters and stuff.

[laughs]

Um, I think it could be a really exciting part of our interview.

Okay, we'll do it. We, we only asked two things, a quiet room and headphones, and you said-

[laughs]

... "No headphones, and I'll be out in the street in Manhattan."

You do sound better than you should.

[laughs]

It is confusing.

That's Zoom's technology, has nothing to do with Nat.

All right, Nat, where, yeah, where are you? Look, it looks like you're on location Albuquerque.

I, look-

But I don't-

Look at, check this out. Okay, now I'm going into this tunnel hallway kinda place where you will, there's nobody here. It's like an alleyway. Now it's gonna be quiet, and there's not gonna be anything. Now you'll be-

All right, so you're going to, you're going to co- you're going to cop something for later, maybe take a piss. I see what's going on here.

[laughs]

Yeah, I feel like we're taking a smoke break right now.

[laughs] Yeah.

This is nice, Nat.

Yeah, where, what city are you in, though? I need to know.

I'm in Brooklyn. I'm in Brooklyn. Where... Wait, where are you guys?

I'm in Florida right now. Jason's in LA. But Brooklyn is the Albuquerque of, of New York, so that kinda makes sense why I was able to-

We're in Brooklyn. Alex and I are recording, like, the last bits, um, on our album because the label is like, "You have to be done by November 1st," so, which is Alex's birthday. So we're doing, like, little last bits. We just started working with this new producer, and then I was supposed to do my interview in their s- in the sound booth, and then-

Mm

... now the sou- now that booth is being taken by another artist, and it all got fucked up. But-

Mm-hmm. Yeah

... I'm doing the best that I can, and I love you guys.

Hey, man, look, I respect it-

[laughs]

... and I understand you gotta get shit done. The label's beating down the door. You've got-

[laughs]

You got singles out.

Yeah.

Also, I just listened to your, uh, interview with, uh, Kevin Parker. It was sick.

Oh, you're a big Tame-

Oh, thanks, bro

... you're a Tame head, aren't you?

I listened to it not even kn- I listened to it this morning, and I was thinking, "I think I'm doing the interview with them today," but I didn't even know. Yeah.

Really?

Exciting. Yeah.

That's, that's true serendipity going on. So you didn't d- so was that the first episode of this pod that you have listened to? It's okay, no judgment.

No, I think there was like a... I feel like there was a director, a movie director-

We, we, we've had, we've had a lot of your favorites on. Malcolmus. Maybe you're talking about Eugene Kotolenko, um-

No, not Eugene. Mal- Malcolmus probably. I probably-

You don't know... Don't tell me you know, don't tell me you know Eugene too. This motherfucker only knows haughty little young actors. It's starting to get questionable to me.

[laughs]

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Eugene the director?

Yeah.

Yeah. I, I, I don't know him very well, but I remember I, I had him-

He knows you well.

[laughs]

[laughs]

Maybe.

We, we might be working on a project together, as they say.

No.

Okay, so, so you are in Brooklyn in the lab. I'm actually gonna be in Brooklyn this weekend. I'm gonna go see Tame Impala on Halloween at Barclays. You wanna go?

Fuck yeah. Wait, what day?

Halloween day, the 31st.

We're doing, like, my brother's doing a birthday party, I think, in, uh, LA. So I think I'm gonna have-

Oh

... to fly on Halloween morning.

Mm.

To LA and go.

The dreaded Halloween flight.

You guys are, you guys are... Look, I don't mean to, I don't mean to intrude on personal family business, but you guys are too close, bro. You two do mu- you do enough together.

[laughs]

Like, let this guy have his birthday on his own.

It's, it's a brother's birthday party. Is it a special year or is it just a whatever, 32?

He's... What is he turning, 28? I guess it's special because he didn't die at 27.

Sure.

So he's not in the 27 Club.

That's right.

So it's kind of like a celebration that he made it past.

My biggest regret. My biggest regret.

[laughs]

Not dying at 27. [laughs]

Yeah. And your brother's been real hard living, you know. A lot of guns, a lot of drugs, so I'm surprised he made it, right?

Exactly. Yeah, we're, we're lucky, right? How much... You're older, right?

I'm three years older, but we were just on a plane recently and somebody was like, "Wait, you're the younger brother, right?" And I took that as a big compliment.

Mm-hmm.

Which I would have hated when I was young. When we were kids I would have hated that so much.

Yeah.

'Cause I wanted to seem older, but now it sounds awesome.

When you're 12, that's fucking bullshit.

Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

And now you're like, "Well, thank you. I've been doing a lot of eye masks lately."

Yeah. [laughs]

"My Chinese peptides are working out."

I... Do, do you... Do you... You live in LA, though. You don't live in New York, right?

Yeah, we grew up in New York, but I moved to LA, like, 2019.

Oh, I didn't realize you, I didn't realize you grew up in New York.

Yeah, we grew up in New York, and then it's been strange. All my friends from New York have all moved to LA. So I actually get into town here and I don't know anybody. Al still lives here most of the time, but his girlfriend's in LA, so he's always in LA too.

Do, do you miss, do you miss the Big Apple or are you feeling good?

I do. I get here and I... Like, I did a play here a year and a half ago, and I was loving it so much, having this amazing time, and then winter hit and I was like, "Ugh, this is why I f-." It's like-

Mm

... so cold.

I gotta get, I gotta get back to Beachwoods stat.

You gotta explain to me this play shit, 'cause all you motherfuckers do it and it sounds hard and low-paying. Is that fair to say?

Yeah. [laughs] Definitely.

[laughs] Yeah, but it's very rewarding, Chris. Being in the room right there. You wouldn't get it.

I get it. I know it's rewarding, but like, you know, I get why Denzel does it, you know what I'm saying? But you, you, you don't have anything to prove, bro. You ain't trying... You know? Like, you've done your thing. Like, Denzel's still gotta convince people he's really got the chops.

I don't think so.

You think Denzel has to convince people he's got the chops? [laughs]

Guys, that's a joke. That's a joke.

That's gonna be the headline.

Matt, of course, we all know, you know, nothing to prove.

That's what I'm saying. I, no, I'm, I'm joking, but I just, every person I've ever talked to that does that is like, "Yeah, it was the worst thing I've ever done." Like, like for my body and my mental health.

I actually told my... I, I got asked to do another play last year, and I was telling my therapist, I was like, "I actually just got asked to do..." He goes, "No!" Like that.

[laughs]

Just screamed out a no. Because it is really br- it was... The one I did a couple year, or like a year and a half ago was The Seagull, and so I had basically by the end of the play had to commit suicide every single show, like eight times a week. [laughs]

Ooh.

So it was like-

And, uh-

... you had to go from this hopeful kid to just like-

Not have to commit suicide-

You know

... eight shows a week. [laughs]

I die four nights a week, twice on Saturdays and Fridays. My life is going great.

Eight, eight nights a week.

Eight nights a week. Oh, God. Was that... You were in a play with Hari Nef, right?

Yeah, she... That was the play that she was in.

That was the play. Okay.

She's unbelievable actress. She's amazing.

Maybe she's the one who told me that shit sucked. I can't remember.

She, I think she was, she was the very first guest on this, on this podcast.

No way.

The first, first week of COVID, yeah.

Yeah. She's, she's so incredible, and we ended up having... We ended up being in a dressing room together called the all gen- all gender dressing room, AGDR. And it was me, her, David Kale, Patrick, um, and, uh, Elise Shannon. It was so fun.

AGDR. So you're saying the entire cast basically was in one dressing room? Is that what-

Okay, so you walked in there and pulled your dick out, and you're like, "See? Deal with it."

[laughs] See? It says on the door. It's cool if I do this.

Yeah, I know. That's what I thought. You don't, nobody wants to see these balls.

[laughs] How many people were in the cast? You got five in a dressing room. How many fucking people were on-

There was a lot of people in the cast. It was like 12 people or something, and we were all s- spread out between three dressing rooms. And then people would be like, "You guys are... You know, this is becoming cliquey." But then, you know, at a certain point everybody was... But the other people who weren't in the all gender dressing room were really happy they weren't, because, y- you know, it was a nonstop party.

Okay. Nonstop party, you're saying. Uh, and this is, this is off-

Hari Nef, I mean.

Is this off Broa-

Sure, sure.

This is an Off Broadway, like, serious production.

Yeah, it was at the, it was at the, um, Signature Theater.

Okay. What, what were tickets hitting for? If I'm just walking up off the street, I don't know Hari, I don't know you, what am I paying?

Maybe day of you'd be... You'd have to reach deep into your pockets, but maybe before that you could get... It's like a plane flight or something. If you did it early on-

Sure, it gets... [laughs]

Mm-hmm.

Sure, as it gets closer to the day, the price goes up. Okay, got it.

Yeah, actually-

That's fair

... actually, let's talk about flying. I know that you've had to do a lot of flying in your, in your short life. You've probably done a... You... How many runs, Austral- like Sydney, LAX and back, how many, how many of those you done probably?

Oh my God. I mean, in the last, like, five years I've spent so much time in Australia, and that flight and the, the, the jet lag there is brutal. That's super brutal. But I've done a m- I've done that flight a million times.

Mm-hmm.

Like, when I was doing Play Dirty I had to fly back-To do Billie's music video for Gira one night, do that video, and then fly all the way [laughs] to Australia, and then be shooting like two days later and... But, um, honestly for me, I'm s- I mean, probably for, I think for a lot of people it's... I'm way happier in the chaos of a schedule like that than I am when nothing's going on-

Damn. Be proud

... and you're kind of like having to make your own schedule, and you're like, "Okay, well, oh, uh, I have to make myself get up be- you know, before 10:00. Why? I'm not sure, but I-

[laughs]

... I'll find something to do. I guess I'll go work out. I guess I'll-

I, I should... It's the right thing to do.

Yeah, because it's too embarrassing to wake up later, you know?

Yeah. There's, there's reason enough. Okay. Well, what do you... When you're on those, all those runs, Chris and I have been to Australia before. I've been a few times. It's a, it is a long fucking flight. What do you, what are your methods? Do you get zen? Do you take drugs? Do you watch four Pacino movies in a row? You read a good book? Do you eat the food?

You're an eye, you're an, you're an eye mask guy. I can tell.

Hell.

[laughs]

I might go put my head on the, on the table. That pullout table.

Like a student in mi- like a middle school student?

Yeah, [laughs] exactly, and you kinda sleep like that.

Okay, so you don't, you don't get first class to Sydney, bro? Come on.

Don't lie to us, bro. You ain't, you ain't had a seat that doesn't recline in a, all the way-

[laughs]

... in a long time, big bro.

If I'm doing my own... If I'm, if I'm grabbing my own flight, then I'm putting my head on the table, and I'm in the back by the bathroom.

[laughs]

But if they're grabbing the flight, then I, I always feel like it's, you know-

I like they in this instance.

I almost, I always feel like I'm the kid in Home Alone or something.

You gonna grab this one? You gonna grab this $7,000 flight? Thank you.

I like... If, if they do it, you know, whoever-

If it's a movie, if it's a movie grabbing it or a... you know, then I'm-

Sure

... I'm taking care of-

If studios are willing to pony up for one of their stars to get a good night's sleep.

Okay, so w- with all the money that you save taking, you know, seat 49F, what are you spending that cash on?

I got a call from an accountant like five years ago going, "Do I have these number right? 'Cause it looks like you haven't spent anything for your entire life." 'Cause I live really, [laughs] really, really cheaply and below my means.

Damn.

But, you know, I think it's kind of a... I think now that I'm 30, it's, I'm seeing that it pays off because I have some friends who are, you know, who really like to-

They're really poor now

... to ball and, you know, buy a lot of shit, and they're like f- they're like running out of money now.

I didn't know you hung out with MrBeast. He seems to be doing fine.

[laughs]

I mean, he's got a lot of cars, but-

Chris is obviously joking, but name one of the people that is, is-

Yeah, let's, let's call him out. Let's call him out

... is spending too much money.

Well, there was a period, there was a period where, um, uh, Alex did a frat mo- a movie about frats, and he flew all the kids out from the fraternity to come and be in the movie as like little parts and extras and stuff. And I remember him getting... Oh, I got a call from an accountant about getting IVs, 'cause I've gotten IVs before.

Okay.

And they were like, "These are for your health, right? 'Cause these really add up." That was the only time that I think I've really balled out.

Well, you have a real narc-ass accountant. That, they would love... The IVs are the least of my problems, and I make, I make a fucking fifth of what m- you make. Less.

As a content creator, you can write those off, though.

Yeah.

I heard this thing recently where they were like, "Rock bands used to spend all their money on tour on, on coke, and now they spend all their money on, you know, NADs."

That's, that's real.

Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

No, that's very real. I love that you're getting it.

Mm-hmm.

So you're, you're saying your brother flew out an entire fraternity to give them bit parts in a movie out of his, the goodwill of his own pocket.

Yeah, and I remember him being like, "I think I might've, I might've overextended."

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

He's like, "This is a great idea," and then I kinda started looking at the numbers, and it wasn't so great.

Yeah. The numbers weren't, the numbers weren't adding up.

Is your, is your brother also dating a musician?

My brother has been dating this artist, Rozzi, who's incredible. Incredible.

Rozzi. I like that name. Fun name.

It is a fun name.

They, they met... They started dating in the pandemic, so we all kinda lived together in LA. That's when Alex and I started... It was the first time we had lived together, actually, since we were little kids, or teen- maybe, like, teenagers. Um, and it was really, really amazing, 'cause, like, we hadn't really been... Mo- most of our music making was, like, sending each other songs, then going into the studio and kinda figuring them out. But we had, like, a year of doing nothing, so we just wrote songs together, and, like-

We locked the fuck in. She would be knocking on the door trying to hang out, and you're like, "We're locked in."

Sorry. Yeah, sorry. We're locked in.

[laughs] Sorry.

Yeah.

Sorry. We're current. [laughs]

Sorry, babe. We're locked in. If you could just come back in, like, an hour.

And I remember my friend Austin was staying, was living with us at a certain point, and Alex and I were f- getting into a fight about something with y- the guitar, you know, something with the guitar part or something that we were doing a demo of, and we were screaming at each other. And Austin was like, "P..." And then we immediately were like, "Hey, I'm sorry, Alex." He's like, "Hey, I'm sorry, man." And we made up, and Austin was like, he doesn't have a sibling, and he was like, "Oh, God, I thought the band was gonna break up." I was like, "No, we're not." [laughs]

Oh, that was... I thought that was it. We're done here.

He thought it was Oasis. He thought it was, like, over.

[laughs]

Are you one of those guys who has a house and somebody always kinda lives with them? Maybe until now.

Yeah.

Like, a h- you got a homie that's there 'cause you're not around and, like-

All the time.

Okay.

Big Steve is there right now making a dope-ass omelet, Open Beachwood.

What do these, what do these guys, what do these friends bring to the table besides companionship? Like, they feed the dog while you're gone? Or, like, what are these guys doing besides-

You don't need a designated driver, it seems like.

Hopefully they're paying rent, but I don't wanna get into your pockets like that.

[laughs] You guys are really financially focused.

Well, look, I, I, I-

He is.

[laughs] This is the biggest capitalist podcast in America.

That's... We've been called that b- they call me Capitalist Chris on the Reddit.

[laughs]

So you're not wrong. You're not wrong.

I'm, I'm a, uh, whereas I'm more of a Mom Dani.

[laughs] Um, n- oh, man, I got a... My, my real group of friends was a tight-knit group, but they all are New York. They're all New Yorkers. Few of them are actors, few of them m- musicians. One of them has become a really, like, renowned acting teacher, so we get a lot out of that relationship 'cause he does audition tapes for everybody in the entire friend group.

He, we get, I get a lot of that. He gives me free coaching.

Yeah. [laughs]

So you're saying this, is this... And this person is, like, your peer age-wise.

Yeah, he's a few years older, and he's always seemed like kind of an older brother to all of us, but he's the... Yeah, he's pretty much our age.

That's cool.

Now we're all getting older. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I didn't real- I feel like that's, for some reason, I imagine sort of like a, you know, Ivy League English professor vibe type for an acting coach, but I guess they can be, like, a cool 32-year-old.

I feel like they become that, but yeah, it's like the young, hip professor or something in a, you know, movie about college or-

You gotta start somewhere. You gotta start at some point, Chris.

That's true. That's true.

Exactly.

I've, I've always been fascinated by acting classes because it seems like if you're watching those from outside and you don't have an understanding of what's going on, it literally looks like monkeys in the zoo.If you don't, you know what I'm saying? If you don't understand what's happening, it looks crazy from the outside.

That's more improv to me, but yeah.

Did you guys do comic, like, comedy improv? I've never done one of those classes.

No. I'm, I'm repulsed by it in every way.

[laughs]

Um, but I, I, I guess maybe I'm thinking or I just-

You know, what's that game that they always play? It's like, "Freeze." And then you have to make a new scene. "Freeze." And then you make a new scene.

[laughs]

It's pretty horrifying. I don't, I feel like it is probably helpful to learn that if you're trying to be an actor of any sort later in life. I don't understand it for any other purpose. Like, I, that, I don't, I feel like it must come in handy.

Well, it, it's the same thing as, like, when they tell football players to do ballet. It's just, like-

Sure

... makes them more round, well-rounded-

Right, right

... and graceful and conversational and-

Agile

... rewires the brain a little bit.

Yeah. I mean, I tend to go back to acting class. Um, I try to go back, you know, in between stuff, and then I work with, like, an acting teacher who I love.

So, like, you'll get a sc- you'll get a script and be like, "All right. Let's get on Zoom for the next six weeks," or whatever.

You call up James Franco, go over to his workshop-

[laughs]

... and you start banging out lines.

[laughs] I mean, they have, you know, I feel like it's like the, it's, the football thing is a great analogy. It's like, you know, you kind of, even if it's something that feels really ridiculous, like, you know, pret- what did you say? Pretending to be a monkey or something.

I just mean, like, the warmups and shit. It's like you're s- you're, like, saying stuff that isn't real words and, like, moving your body in a way that maybe you wouldn't.

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Mm-hmm.

But I do think it gets you over, it can get you over the embarrassment and ridiculousness of what it means to be an actor anyway.

Mm-hmm.

Or to do any art form. It's like you just have to be okay with being humiliated.

That's what, that's what the money's for.

We referenced the great poet Sky Ferreira all the time on this podcast. Everything is embarrassing is something that I live by.

Yeah.

And there's no way to... I can't think of one thing I do on a daily basis that's not embarrassing at this point. It's just, it's, it's nonstop.

It's kind of like, what's the point if it's not taking you to the brink of embarrassment? What's the point?

Mm. I need to feel something.

Then it's just fucking boring.

It is. No, I, I agree with you.

Yeah.

I think there's, I think there's some truth to that.

We were talking about gooning in the intro, and that's a nice little callback to that, Nat.

How is that a callback to gooning?

[laughs]

[laughs]

[laughs] I th- I think the shame and the degradation is-

That's part of it

... is, is a part of it. Like, if it's not, like, if my mom wouldn't cry knowing what I'm doing right now, what is even the point of jacking off to it?

Do you think that, do you think that Kevin Parker was mad that you said that his lyrics were like Drake? He seemed like he froze up a little bit. [laughs]

I think he's never heard a compliment that high before and he didn't know how to process it.

[laughs]

I lo- no, I would love that. I thought the compliment was sick, but he was like, "There's a lot of u- lot to unpack there," and then it just went silent.

Yeah.

I mean, bro, if you go viral two days before you do our show talking about how you watch Family Guy in your lyrics, what do you want me to do?

[laughs]

Right.

What, what, Jason's only so strong.

It was a com- I mean, it really was a compliment 'cause I was, I've listened to Tame Impala, you know, my-

Yeah

... for the entirety of his career, and on this album, I was like, it kinda sounds like he's getting a little flow going. And then I would, I would read the lyrics-

Totally

... just written out on genius.com instead of hearing it, and I was like, "This is, this has the structure of, like, a hip hop song or, like, something that Drake would sing rap," you know?

I know. I lo- I, I, I love that. I love, I l- I, you were, you, one of you guys started kind of pointing out lines that were like that, and he was like, "Yeah, I kind of went for a harsher lyrical vibe." It was in- it was really interesting to hear. I haven't heard the new album yet, but-

Oh, really?

... excited to.

That's, the, the Family Guy thing is really good. It's actually a bar. It's, it's really inter-

Yeah, what does he say? You, like, watch Criterion movies and I watch-

Yeah, he said, "You're, you're a cinephile. I watch Family Guy."

You're, that's funny. That's, like, good stuff.

That's hilarious.

But it's also him.

Yeah.

You know? It's, it's real and it's authentic, and it's a thing that I feel like many people can relate to nowadays because, like you said-

Yeah, totally

... Criterion, every cool hot chick in Brooklyn right now has a Letterboxd and she's not gonna fuck you unless you have cool movies on your Letterboxd. And if you write, like, "Uh, I watch Family Guy," I'm just, you know, I think a lot of people could relate to that.

I disagree. I think that's, like, skater dick. It's, like, if the mattress on the floor...

[laughs]

Like, if he watches, if he watches Family Guy, he doesn't know what Letterboxd is, like, get a, put a ring on it.

Oh, okay, okay. He has no, he doesn't even know how to spell Godard. He's gonna fuck the shit out of me.

Yeah, yeah.

I got it. I got it.

It could go both ways. It could go both ways. Like, is d- who does Noah Baumbach ride for, you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

But I don't know if the, I don't know if it-

[laughs]

[laughs]

Like, Letterboxd is my... If I went on Letterboxd, it would look like I was trying to read in a different language. I'm so averse to cinephile behavior. Like, I, I don't think I would be able to understand it.

Well, what's the, what... You know, how about all these people who are, like, actors and directors and they're rating movies on Letterboxd and reviewing movies? I'm like, what if you end up working with these people?

[laughs]

Or, like, you know, you're gonna be, you're gonna go to their screening or something and they're gonna be like, "Hey, you fucking trashed me on Letterboxd."

Hey, Nat, try being a podcaster.

[laughs]

I meet somebody I've trashed every day.

This is a minefield that I walk through.

Do you actually?

You have to, you have to deal with it.

No, I've probably trashed you. No, I'm joking. I, I have, I have-

You better not have, Chris.

No, I don't, I wouldn't say trashed, but I think there's, I think when you do any... I mean, that's different 'cause that's so calculated. You have to, like, log on and ty- and think about it and type it. We kinda talk a lot, so you forget sometimes what you say.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's easy for what we say on the pod to be lost in the ether versus it being text that you can search on the internet at any given moment.

How about when you, how about when you're, like, you know, just doing an interview and then you e- you know, you log off like this and then I go, "What the hell did I say? What did I say that's gonna get me in trouble? What did I say that's gonna be the headline?"

We do that every day, but no one cares what we say as much as they care what-

[laughs]

That's the difference, is that we-

I care what you say. Okay, now I'm allowed to go back into this fucking booth. So I'm gonna go into the booth. Wait, is there a way to pause and I can just call you right back and... 'Cause I'll also be able to hear it better.

Okay. Zara Larsson's finished her cut.

Okay, I'll call you back. One sec.

What is a Revolve Man, Jason? It's... Oh, funny you ask.

What's a Revolve Man?

It's a r- a place where guys who care about how they look go to shop. Revolve Man is stocked with only the elevated essentials and trend-forward styles from brands like Polo, Ralph Lauren, Salomon, Fear of God Essentials for our hoopers out there, and more. It's not fast fashion and it's not stuffy. It's the sweet spot between looking intentional and not looking like you tried too hard. That's what we're all trying to accomplish out here, Jason. New arrivals drop twice a week with free two-day shipping and next-day options. Plus, returns are genuinely easy.

Genuinely, yeah. It's one of those things, we're all busy. Let's say we got an important dinner coming up at the end of the week. It's Tuesday. You're working every single day. You don't have time to go shopping and try clothes on and blah, blah, blah, or even just browse. You know, Revolve, it's all there. It's all curated for what you want, and then you click buy, you go to bed. Couple days later, that shows up in packaging that's a little nicer than y- the other places you're buying clothes from, and you've got a nice look for the big night out. And then you're like, "Wait a minute, I don't even have to return this because I enjoy this clothing and I wanna wear it again another time," versus all those dumb other websites. So whether it's a big night out, a wedding, a trip, or you just need something last-minute that actually works, Revolve Man always has it. Go to revolveman.com/howlong to shop and use code HOWLONG for 15% off your order. Free two-day shipping, easy returns. It just makes everything easier. That is revolve.com/howlong and use the promo code HOWLONG to get 15% off your entire order. Offer ends soon. Don't sleep on it. And you don't need clothes too. You can get just, you know, a cool candle or an incense gift for a baby shower, whatever it is, revolve.com/howlong.

Hi, Talkhouse network listeners. It's your old friend Nels Cline from Wilco here. Wilco is touring this summer and we'd love to see you somewhere on the road. We're playing shows this June and July in Rochester Hills, Michigan; Chautauqua, New York; Lafayette, New York; Bethlehem, Pennsylvania; Vienna, Virginia; Forest Hills, New York; Portland, Maine; Tulsa, Oklahoma; Memphis, Tennessee; LaGrange, Georgia; Charleston, South Carolina; Virginia Beach, Virginia; Wheeling, West Virginia; and Columbus, Ohio. Plus, there are even more dates, some with Willie Nelson, that I didn't even mention here. So please go to wilcoworld.net to see the full list of dates. We'll see you on the road this summer.

[upbeat music] All new drinks are now at McDonald's. With refreshers like the Strawberry Watermelon Refresher and the Mango Pineapple Refresher with popping boba, to crafted sodas like the Sprite Berry Blast with berry flavors and cold foam. Who knew ice-cold drinks could be so fire? Try them all now at McDonald's.

Refreshers contain caffeine. Copyright 2026, The Coca-Cola Company. Sprite is a registered trademark of The Coca-Cola Company.

Okay, for our listeners at home, Nat is in a booth, his headphones. So who was in the booth before that was blocking you out? Is it somebody important and good?

It, it was, uh, Paul McCartney.

[laughs]

[laughs] That's crazy enough.

Mm-hmm.

Paul had to come.

So you let, you let him finish up his takes. That was cool of you to do that.

No, I said, "Paul, I got this fucking podcast to do. Get your ass out of the booth."

He's... I, I saw that they're doing a... He's doing a Wings book.

What does that mean?

[laughs]

Like a book-

Fair question

... about his time in Wings, like the band.

Oh, whoa. Yeah, I mean-

I guess people care about anything Paul McCartney does.

I... Yeah, I mean, I care. I lo- there's some amazing Wings shit.

I agree, but it's, uh, I feel like it's sorta overlooked, you know what I mean?

Actually, I heard your, I heard your story involving Paul McCartney at the Oasis show. Could you tell Chris that please?

Yeah, basically we [laughs]... Well, I had, I had randomly sat next to him. I mean, we've been obsessed Beatles fans since we were little kids, like really crazy, crazy obsessive. And, um, like I had posters all over my wall of just Beatles. That was it. And, like-

Were your, were your parents into, were your parents into it?

My parents were into it, and they, they showed it to us, you know, like Rubber Soul and Revolver, but, uh, we took it way further than they ever did.

Sure, sure, sure. [laughs]

But I also, like, didn't really as a kid understand that these artists had aged. So I remember, like I had the James Taylor CD, and he was this young, kind of beautiful guy, and I remember my parents being like, "James Taylor is on TV. Come and watch." And I came out and I was like, "Who the fuck is this bald guy?"

Oh, yeah. [laughs]

[laughs]

[laughs]

I mean, yeah.

Just MF old.

Like, "That's not James Taylor."

We... unfortunately, we all age. It's gonna come for your little ass too one day, so let's not-

That was, that was your Santa Claus, Easter Bunny moment, knowing that James Taylor wasn't 19 anymore.

That was a huge, huge disappointment.

In 2000.

That's actually a sh- a good example of one that's shocking because he was so good-looking. He was like s-

I know.

And he had like a mane.

Beautiful.

He had like a mane.

I know, beautiful long hair, and he's like... You know, and he was j- And I would just stare at the cover like, "God, this guy's so fucking cool." And then, and then I was... you know, ran into the kitchen where the TV was, and I was like, "[gasps] Who the, who the hell is this guy?"

And now he's so bald.

So bald. Then I went to this restaurant and, like, I saw Paul there, but I wasn't with Alex, and I went up to him and I started crying talking to him. And then he was so sweet to me, and his wife at a-

What restaurant? If... What restaurant, if you don't mind me asking? We'll bleep it out.

It was, it was in the Hamptons. I can't remember what it was called-

Oh, that makes sense. Okay

... but he's always in the Hamptons I guess. And then, um, and then Alex, when I told him, I was like, "Dude, I actually... You know, I, I met Paul. He wear-" And he found out that my friend David was there and he wasn't there. Alex, like, punched a hole in the wall. So there's just been years of him being so jealous and pissed off-

[laughs]

... that I was the one that met Paul. And then we, at the Oasis show, um, we ended up getting lost and we couldn't get back to our seats, and we ended up at this elevator and they were like, "You guys go up because, uh, Paul McCartney and team are coming." And Alex is even here, and I was like, "Don't move. Just don't move."And then Paul came in, and we kind of bum rushed into the elevator. And Alex's-

Mm

... immediately his hands start shaking, and he was like, "Hey, Paul, I just wanted to tell you," and he went to reach to lift, 'cause he has a tattoo, the, of, you know, Here, There and Everywhere, and he went to reach to show it, and the security g- guard thought, I guess, he was grabbing a gun or something. So the security goes, "Hey, what the fuck are you doing?"

[laughs]

Goes at him, and then Alex is, like, frozen for he's like, "Sorry, I just, I have the tattoo that I wanted to show you." And then Paul's like, "Well, I'd like to see the tattoo."

[laughs]

It was so sick, and then Alex showed him the tattoo, and as he's... And then it was like, "Paul, you're the greatest ever." And as he's leaving, Paul's like, "Thanks, mates." And then just walks out, and-

Mm.

I mean, you don't get better than that.

No.

Doesn't get better than that.

You don't. Well, I guess the only thing better is if Paul McCartney's security guard actually attacks you, and then-

Decked him

... Paul has to come over to your house and sign a couple guitars and have tea with you so you don't sue him, you know? That would be better.

Ooh, that would be sick. Yeah. Or some-

Or you just sue the shit out of him

... if we could somehow have Paul McCartney blackmailed. But at the end of it, Alex was like, "You don't think Paul felt threatened by me, right?" [laughs]

[laughs]

[laughs] You're like, "No, you fucking twerp. He's Paul McCartney."

[laughs]

"He's got six guys with him. A- like, what?"

No, I said, and also Paul has forgotten. Immediately has forgotten.

Paul has forgotten.

Th- this interaction is one of a billion that he's had today.

Mm-hmm.

I don't know how... I don't even know how a guy like that moves through the world, hon- honestly. Like, I know it's like, I know how he moves in an Escalade with three guys with him at all times.

[laughs]

But I just mean, like, he seems genuinely pretty nice.

Yeah.

And I feel like when you're that level of, like, a, y- y- like, you changed everyone's lives, basically.

How do you, how do you maintain such a positive attitude, uh, socially after having, like you said, he has a million of those interactions every single day since 1951 or whatever, you know? Like-

And when I saw him at the restaurant-

Constantly

... the waiters-

You have still a beautiful light

... the waiters were literally dropping plates of spaghetti and meatballs on the floor because they're just like-

[laughs]

... they can't handle... It's different than an actor-

Yeah

... 'cause I think when you're an actor, you know, it's like, I mean, I really idolized a lot of actors when I was younger and stuff, but you meet them and you're not meeting the character that you saw in the movie. You're just-

Yeah, yeah

... meeting the guy who portrayed the character. Whereas with a musician it gets really confusing 'cause you're like, "Uh, you are my childhood," you know?

Mm-hmm.

Things like that.

I say that-

Yeah, yeah, yeah

... I say that all the time. It's very, it's, it's totally different art forms to me in a lot of ways.

Oh, really?

You're right. And I think that's why-

Yeah

... we're all so disappointed with actors, and that's why I'm glad you got into music.

Yeah. [laughs] Well, I've had this funny thing happen where if people, you know, w- I can just see it with us. If people recognize me or Alex from movies, like, if they know me from a movie it's usually like, "Hey, so nice to meet you. Big fan. Can I take a picture?" And ah. And if it's from, like, music, especially from when we were kids, you know, like, music we made that hit-

Yeah, yeah

... fans since then, it's d- a com- completely different energy. It's like, "Hi," and-

Mm-hmm

... intense.

That's like a-

You know?

I, I think that's-

Mm-hmm

... interest- i- interesting, though, to be, like, known for two different things and the, the, the people that-

I know

... know you know you, you can tell what they know you from based on their reaction to seeing you.

Oh, totally. It's a completely different energy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I just read that, I hadn't read this, and I put it off, the Jennette McCurdy book, the, the I'm Glad My Mom Died. And it's very good, and it sold-

I haven't read that

... it sold three million copies, which is kind of unheard of for a fucking book, you know what I mean? So I was like, "All right. Let me check it out."

Wow.

But it's, but at the, the level of recognition from, like, a young age, I think, is also so twisted because people... Like, you're an adult and they're still calling you your character name from when you were eight-

Oh

... or whatever.

It's so bad for you.

Yeah, it just... [laughs] Yes, exactly. It seems like-

Right

... I'm like, "Oh, I see why you had some issues," you know what I mean? It all, this all tracks.

Yeah, and I don't really know that much about her story, but it sounds like it was a really traumatic period, so to constantly be reminded of that-

Mm. Mm-hmm

... traumatic period has to suck.

It's just, it's got, it's got everything. It's pretty funny. It's like her mom's awful, and then she-

Oh, wow

... like, gets her first boyfriend, and he's a schizophrenic who thinks he's Jesus. It just, like, keeps going.

Mm-hmm.

Do you know what I mean? Like, every single page.

Did he turn out to be Jesus or no?

[laughs]

Sa- sadly, after-

That's a spoiler

Feels like user error to me, honestly.

Yeah. After, yeah. [laughs]

But, yeah.

I thought I was Jesus before, too, but that was drug related.

[laughs]

That wasn't just, like-

Yeah, I, I, I think with the child actors, and correct me if I'm wrong, I feel like there's, like, a, you, you're forced to be, like, a charming person at a age where it's too... Like, people will say, like, you know, the sexualization of people before they're old enough, like, that can be damaging. But having to be, like, a A-list level charming person and on at the age of nine, I feel like by the time you turn an a, into an adult, you've used up all of your charming juice.

Yeah. I mean, I, I also just think it's a lot of time around adults.

Yeah, true.

It's a lot of time talking to adults, so you kind of... You know, I think for, for us, there was, you know, we did go to real school during the year and all, but it is a confusing thing to have that much attention on you by adults and you don't know who you are yet. And so-

Mm

... like, 11, 12, 13, 14 is sort of the age that i- in the new album that Alex and I have been working on, it's kind of what we're going back to in terms of reflecting on that time because it... The, the reason I got to thinking about it is 'cause I was in a ther- I was, uh, leaving therapy, and this kid came in who was, like, 12, and he's wearing a fedora, and he looked so uncomfortable in his body and, and who he was. And I had worn a fedora at that age, and I said to my therapist, like, "Why is it that at that age these kids, they put on such ridiculous hats and, like, they..."

[laughs]

And, but, 'cause that's all they have as an identity. They don't know who they are, so they're like, "The hat is my identity."

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm fedora guy.

I'm fedora guy now, and it's pay... You know, and they probably saw, like, you know, he was, seemed like a theater-y kind of kid. He probably saw Guys and Dolls or something, and he was like-

Mm-hmm

... "Now I'm gonna be the hat guy."

He's like, "Look, I still wet the bed, but I'm a fedora guy now."

Yeah, exactly. And it's like this idea of being an adult when you s- want to, you wanna be perceived as an adult, but you're so clearly not. And, and, and then I think, yeah, probably being famous or being a public guy, it just exacerbates that-

Yeah, for sure

... that, that strange feeling anyway. Yeah.

For sure.

Okay. So when you were, when you were younger, you were wearing... fedoras maybe because you wanted to, maybe because the, the, the photo shoot or the, the role called for it. Now that you're an adult with 100% free will, how often do you have to wear clothes that you don't wanna wear for, like, a photo shoot or something like that?

Ugh. Eh, th- thank God I don't have to do that much. I mean, I... But honestly, the fedora was fully my idea as a kid.

[laughs] You're like, "Yo, I wanna... Yeah, let me be clear."

I thought I was so... I thought I was, when I put the fedora on, I thought I was the coolest person in the entire world. I look at pictures now and I see a small child with a large fedora. It almost looks like I'm drowning in fedora, you know?

Yeah, you were drowning.

Yeah, but at the time it was kinda true.

Yeah.

You're walking around, you with a fedora, everyone still wants to hang out with you and get your autograph and every- You know, it seems like the fedora's working to you.

What ti- what... All right, so if I go on WireImage and I start, I start poking around-

Oh, you're gonna be

... when do you think it starts? Like, what age? I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna do that to you. I like you too much. But what age-

It starts at 12, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah, it starts at 12.

That's tough. That's tough. I'm thinking about myself at 12-

It's brutal

... and I, I, I, I was a big guy.

Well, we went, I mean, I went from being, like, you know, a p- whatever, four foot 10 kid to, like, growing so tall in one summer, and then having my voice change. I was, like, 13 and I was the same height I am now.

Mm.

Which is, it's almost six foot two. Just want everybody to know, it's almost six foot two.

[laughs]

Not quite six foot two, but it's almost.

Yeah, six, almost six two.

Just let the people know that I'm just putting my face all the way up to the camera. [laughs]

You're five, you're five-eleven and a half with y- with your Beetle boots on.

So you came back from, from, from summer break and Nickelodeon said, "You are too hot and hunky and adult and tall to be-"

[laughs]

"You're fired. Get out of here."

Covered in acne and so...

[laughs]

Yeah. Also, I was like a puppy, just long arms, long legs with no... Kinda just-

Mm-hmm

... not knowing how to...

Yeah. The girls hate that. The girls really hate that.

[laughs]

[laughs]

That's real. I mean-

How tall are you, Jason?

I'm six nine, Chris is six four.

No you're not, actually.

Yeah.

Yeah, deadass.

Holy shit. Do you guys play basketball?

No.

Nope.

I mean, I did more than him. I'm an athlete-

Yeah

... obviously, if you couldn't tell through the screen.

Yeah, duh.

But, you know.

I'm more of a tennis guy, more of a cycling guy.

Yeah.

I played baseball growing up, not basketball.

It's good to be six nine when you're cycling.

[laughs]

I mean, [laughs] cycling through hoes.

[laughs]

No, I mean being tall, long legs, good for pedaling.

That's true. That's true.

You are a fucking idiot. [laughs]

Mm-hmm, long, lean muscles.

[laughs] S- you are a fucking idiot.

[laughs]

It's bad for your back, though. I honestly, I feel like it's-

Yeah

... it, it, I do feel like even if you get the bike that's the right size-

Yeah

... you're still hunched. I, I-

True

... I'm asking, Jason. I'm asking.

No, no, no. There are... I mean, like every sport, it's not ideal. I don't, I got no CTE, but yeah, maybe I have a strained-

Mm-hmm

... upper side butt. [laughs]

Sure. Okay, Pilates. What-

Maybe my flexors are tight. I don't have CTE.

What are you-

I'm not gonna shoot my family.

What are you doing for exercise? I know they got you seeing a trainer. You've been in Hollywood too long.

[laughs]

And don't say pickleball.

They better... Kirstie Godso's got your ass lit up, I bet. [laughs]

I have to be, I have to say, oh, before the, before this last year I would've never said, but in the last year I have gotten ridiculously good at pickleball. I'm unbeatable.

What's wrong with you, bro? Have you been hanging out with Maroon 5? What's the problem?

[laughs]

[laughs] Um, I, you know, I've done all the... I played basketball growing up, so that's my fa- I mean, that's my favorite thing. But then I, I try, I can't really do it for real because I, I g- I've broken so many fingers, and then it's become such a pro- I broke a-

Yeah, you have a life. You can't just be hooping and then you-

You got a noodle. You got to shred on the Jazzmaster.

But you know, it's the most... I mean, for me, it's the most fun, for sure.

Basketball is really fun. I, I find pickup basketball-

Yeah

... devolves into some sort of fight with strangers, at least in New York. I used to, when I, when I moved to N- when I moved to New York, and back, when I, I grew up in Atlanta, I would play pickup basketball and almost every time it would end in-

Like at The Cage? Where did you play?

I, no, not The Cage. Hell no.

No. [laughs]

At the fucking YMCA on Bowery with a bunch of white boys. It was not The Cage.

[laughs]

It was not The Cage. I don't even like-

I was like, I wouldn't get, I wouldn't get into a fight there, Chris.

I don't even like to walk by the Ca-

[laughs]

I cross the street. I don't like to get near The Cage.

I'm sorry.

Well, they don't let you... I've tried to play. When I was younger, I would d- like, try to play at The Cage, but they have, like, they're always kind of booked up with people that have been there all day.

They ain't gonna let your ass. They-

No

... they could lo- one look at you and they're like, "No, no. We don't care how-"

No, but Y, I've played at the Y. That's so fun.

Can you go play with Sandler? Feel like you're, you got a couple steps away from him, huh?

I've never, I, I've, I've never met Sandler, but I, but I'm, I would lo- I, I heard he's really, he's really good.

I heard, I heard he's a weapon.

I think he's one of those guys who's s- like, strangely not athletic, but really good at basketball, if that makes sense. Like, he's not r-

There are those

... he's not running that much-

Yeah

... but he's doing whatever his job is very well when he is positioned-

Yeah

... on two feet.

You try to, you try to box him out, he's solid.

There's, like, those guys who-

Solid. Lifts his shirt up, nothing. Can't move the guy.

There's those guys who can't really play basketball, but then they've been practicing their three-point shot-

Yeah

... for, like, three years, so they just-

Mm-hmm

... hit 'em with the three.

Mm-hmm.

They can barely dribble, but they can-

I was gonna let you slide on this, but how did you get infected with the pickleball disease? Who, who exposed you to it?

I got infected through, um, my cousins were super into it. Um, and then in LA, once I moved to LA, there's, like, kind of a new fad exercise where if you wanna play any sport with people, you have to do the new one, and pickleball has been kinda the one in the last couple years.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

But it, yeah, it's a little embarrassing to say, but honestly, have you done it? It's really fun. Like, if you... You know, playing tennis is such a thing. You gotta actually exercise and put on sh- you know, an outfit, and-

Mm-hmm

... and, and with pickleball I can do it in my jeans.

So you're admitting, you're admitting pickleball is more of a child's play.

Definitely. Definitely. But I, it's so fun.

Do you break a sweat? I mean, in LA I guess you do-

Yeah, yeah

... 'cause it's hot.

Yeah. Yeah.

And so-

You break a sweat

... the Maroon 5 guy says it's the quickest way to reach a flow state, which is why-

Which Maroon 5 guy? That's still funny.

I don't remember. They a- most of them play tennis. Half of them listen to the pod. I don't remember who it was, but-

James. James. James. J-

Do you play tennis with Maroon 5?

I think James Valentine might be a professional pickleball player as well as a crazy tennis player at this point.

Hell yeah.

But his, his d- his argument for why pickleball was that it's the fastest way to reach the flow state so you're able to-Have a zen-like meditative stan- you know, state way, way faster and way longer. You're able to goon the meditative state with pickleball

I, I could see, I could, I actually see that

Rallies are longer

He, like, worships at the temp- the temple of pickleball

I feel like-

I love it

... I feel like the dink would take me out of it, Jason. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. It's like, "We dink, we dink, we dink."

Yeah, that's not flow state-ish to me.

[laughs] But also, you know, I don't know, you can't trust people who need t- that much flow time. Like, what's going on inside of that brain-

Yeah

... that you need to flow away from it, brother man?

What's going on in your... What's going on inside your head that's so chaotic that you need a pickleball for it?

Yeah, it's like Full Metal Jacket. We got a p- you know, "Have you killed before? Will you kill again?" Without pickleball.

Now, with, with, with pickleball, you gotta have four, or could you do a one-on-one?

You could do one-on-one, but it doesn't, it's not quite as fun. But yeah, you can do one-on-one.

'Cause the ball, I ge- I... Four looks more fun just because there's more action.

Yeah, four is so much more fun, but I l- I l- being at the net, you feel like a, you feel like a monster. You feel like you're eight feet tall.

[laughs]

You know, it's like if you were playing tennis as, you know-

[laughs]

... a, a, as a giant.

Okay, okay, okay.

This is a pretty good-

Okay

... you're, you're doing a pretty good job of selling it in the we- right way to us. It's not gonna work, but I appreciate your efforts.

No, I, I find it just as embarrassing as you do. I, I, I find it embarrassing that I love it, but I do love it.

So even though that you've had sex before, they still let you play?

No, I haven't. I had n-

[laughs]

I had never done the sex thi- thing before, so. But I really wanna have sex one day.

[laughs]

So the idea, the idea is I try to get in as much pickleball as I can-

Mm-hmm

Smart, sure

... for-

Sure

... you know what I mean?

Sure, sure, sure. I totally get that.

Because once I have sex, then, you know, not allowed to do any-

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You gotta keep it going

... I gotta, I wanna get my flow states in before I-

You gotta hang up the Hokas as soon as you tap that.

Yeah, are they- [laughs]

[laughs] Dude, how do you know that I was wearing... I did wear Hokas for, like, six months pretty aggressively.

I was gonna ask about-

No problem

... the, the pickleball look, because I feel like it's still new enough of a trend where maybe there haven't been, like, cool in... There's no District Vision of pickleball. Like, things aren't popping up yet, or am I wrong?

No, you're wrong.

Are there, like-

You're wrong

... independent footwear for the walk?

No, I think, I think it's becoming a thing. I think, I think, I think there's leagues and stuff.

I know. I mean clothing-wise specifically.

No, there's shoe... Yeah, there's shoes, there's gear, there's multiple clothing companies, paddle companies, accessories, the whole thing.

I just don't see what on earth the difference could possibly be between a tennis shoe and a pickleball shoe as far as what you need. You know what I mean? I guess it's just a branding exercise then.

One, you look like a virgin.

I didn't wanna say it.

Yeah. Well, I know you look like a virgin. I know. You look like a virgin right now. That's the whole problem.

Okay, you, you said, you said NBA is your number-one love. What do you feel about the whole, uh, sports betting scandal that was, that was dropped this morning? Have you read? I know you're in the stu right now.

No. What's going on?

How's your DraftKings looking? You down, or you, you, you good this month?

I, I feel like I, I m- may have mis-promoted myself. I love playing basketball-

[laughs]

... and I, and as a kid, I watched... I was, like, really religious about watching. And now I, like, I mean, like, I watch the, I watch, like, the finals, and I wa- I watch the Knicks a lot-

Okay, okay

... because I w- because everybody at home was so excited. But I'm not really super-

Okay, okay

... keeping up. What about you?

No, no, I don't-

No, no, I don't give a fuck about sports. But this gambling thing is cool because players are involved.

What if pe- wh- players were gambling on their own games?

Yeah, so ba- here's the, here's the-

Like P Rose

... CNN headli- you know, similar to P Rose. The head coach of the Trail Blazers-

Oh, sh-

... Chauncey Billups, and then the, a guard on the Heat are accused of, uh, scheming with fraudulent sports betting and exploiting insider information about NBA athletes. And then the... So like I, I... Apparently the FBI has been watching the NBA for a long time, and a bunch of people are coming down right now.

Whoa.

Which I guess is a good thing, because n- a lot of... every sport seems to be rigged right now.

Like what else?

Oh, J- your boy from LA hitting all those home runs and all those strikeouts.

[laughs]

That ain't natural.

There's, uh, they just, they just suspended a, a long-time, uh, NCAA football ref.

Well-

You know, everyone thinks the NFL is rigged to do whatever Taylor Swift wants them to do. And so that's why, that's why it's so weird that sports betting and gambling is so prevalent now, because there's nothing left to chance anymore.

They've made it... They've basically made sports gambling a part of the game, and now get mad when people do it.

Right.

You know, you know? Like, it's ba- Like, if you watch ESPN, they're literally showing the odds on ESPN.

Right.

Like, what are you... These guys are only human.

It's just convenient.

Even though they have a $200 million contract, they might wanna put-

Did you guys watch, did you watch The Last Dance, the Jordan doc from a coup- from COVID?

Actually, I didn't.

No, no.

I didn't, actually.

It's really amazing.

Really good.

And, and, and it's interesting how they tell a story about how, you know, he'd be betting with a m- you know, person on the crew of the team. Like somebody, you know... And, and he would, he would have the ferocious competitive energy on some stupid bet that he would have in the game.

Mm-hmm.

And, and also he would do this shit where, like, he would walk by, uh, the coach of the opposing team, and he would kind of concoct a story that they were talking shit about him or something to get him angry.

Oh, I like that.

And, uh, I realized, like, I think a lot, there's a lot of ways in which he was using his, you know... Like, getting himself angry in order to, uh-

That's what I do. That's what I do with other podcasters, so I totally get it.

[laughs]

[laughs]

I totally get it.

Who are your biggest competitors that you wanna take down?

We, we ain't talking about that on the air, chief.

[laughs]

I gotta protect my, I gotta protect myself and my family. I can't have-

Smartless.

Yeah, Smartless number one. Your f- your boys. I'm sure th- those are your boys.

[laughs]

All these, all these fucking celebrities, all these fucking actors coming in thinking they can do this shit all up in the video. We don't fuck with that.

Nah.

This is an art form, and-

Fuck Amy Poehler.

[laughs]

[laughs]

[laughs]

These celeb- But some of them... It's interesting though, 'cause some celebrities it just fucking works. Like I, like the Amy Poehler shit worked out of the gate. There was no lag. Like, that shit hit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amy Poehler's amazing.

And I think-

Yeah.

Mm

... I think there was a-

That was a joke, by the way. I'm a fan

... there was a lot of, uh, well, speak for yourself. There's a lot of, um-

[laughs]

... sort of, there's a big upswing during COVID, because everybody's like, "I can do this."

Of course.

And then I think they realize-

Yeah

... like, "Oh, this actually is hard."I don't wanna do it.

Yeah.

But the ones that kept with it are taking fucking money out of my pocket, food off of my plate.

Right.

Jason Bateman doesn't need more money. He's in every Netflix production in the last 20 years.

Right.

Save some for the rest of us, bro.

Are you sad about Marc Maron coming to an end?

Uh, no.

A little, little yes, little no.

'Cause he was, he was there early on.

Oh, for sure. No, him and Rogan are the OGs for real. Like, that's, like, you can't really argue it. I mean, I think that Maron, um, if you do this for a living and you're Jason and I's age, and you're like-

Yeah

... you know, whatever, early 40s guys, like, he was sort of the blueprint in many ways.

Right, right, right.

You know what I mean? So you can't ever take that away from him. It became a little, like... I- there was a joke that somebody said, like if, [laughs] if they didn't invent the fast-forward button through his opening rants, he would've never gotten the numbers, 'cause it got progressively, like, angrier, you know what I mean, as time goes on, about like, whatever, his cats, his politic- the political situation, whatever it may be. And I think that started to turn people off. I think it's cool that he was like, "I'm done."

Yeah.

Like, "I, I did it. I'm, I'm gonna head out." I think that's tough to do.

Well, I love how your guys' podcast seems like it's not, um, just made to, like, promote people's products, you know? Which is, which a lot of podcasts feel. Like, you, you get a... Especially if you get a great artist that I love and I'm just going to listen to their interview, and then I'm like, "I'm hearing the same stories I heard on five other things."

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's not that interesting.

Have you done, have you done the big dogs? Have you done, like, Dax Shepard and shit like that before?

No, I've never done... What is that, Armchair Expert?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I've never done that. I've honestly j- this is, like, the first early on into me doing podcasts, but I'm-

Oh, really?

Yeah, I think How Long Gone might be the first straight podcast you've ever appeared on, right? [laughs]

[laughs] But I'm liking it a lot because also, like, for, for me doing bite-sized interviews where it's like you sh- you know, they come into the room and you do eight minutes and stuff, I honestly get on a-

Sure

... on a script where I start saying the same thing-

Of course

... over and over again.

I mean, you have to. Like, you-

Yeah

... kinda have to. Like, I don't know what you're supposed to do.

Well, that was, that's our goal from the beginning, which is, like, that's what everyone does. What if, oh, I don't know, you did something different? And-

Yeah, exactly

... that's all it is.

Right.

But for some people, they don't have time or they don't take the podcast seriously, and they're just like, "Okay, tell me about your new movie." And then they just make you the guest who's taking your time out of your day that's more important than the host.

To do all the work. [laughs]

And do-

Yeah, yeah, yeah

... you know, tap dance for me. You do all the work. And then you say, "Yeah, then I met Paul McCartney." And then they go, "Oh, was it, did you like that?"

[laughs]

"Yes, I liked it."

[laughs] Did you like that?

[laughs]

Did you like it?

But I-

Did you like it?

The junket, the junket thing, I know that it, I understand the purpose that it serves, and, and, like, it exists and that's part of sort of the Hollywood machine that will probably never go away.

Right.

But it does seem like truly-

A little antiquated.

Yeah, well, yeah, it also just seems like that stuff, like... I, I guess when it's, when you're in Europe and it's covering multiple countries and all that shit, I, I get it. But, like, for the most part, I'm just like, I don't know what you want these people to do. You know that after-

Right

... on hour four they're gonna have steam coming out of their ears and they're gonna be, they wanna kill you. Like, that's just-

Right.

I need another Celsius after this one, guys.

Oh, I just had one.

[laughs]

I mean, the amount of questions, the amount of questions that I answered in the exact same fashion doing a press tour, like, for Paper Towns, the John Green movie I did, was almost, like, was almost maddening. Like, I, I think I almost-

Yeah

... lost my mind because I started to-

Mm-hmm.

It's like y- it's like all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. I was just like, "Yes, I read the book. It was an incredible book." And-

[laughs]

... you know, I was just saying the same shit over and over again.

I, I just don't know who it, I just, I really don't know. I mean, but I guess you're right. If, if you're looking for a fucking 15-second soundbite, then that's a way to get it.

[laughs] Right, right.

I gue- you know? I, I guess.

Yeah, but, but, but when you would do those, when you would do the, the press runs for the movie as an actor, you would get real questions about acting and the process and interesting stories about the actual thing. And now it's like, "What's your favorite candy? Do you like dogs?"

[laughs]

"Do you li- what's your favorite dog?" You know, like-

Oh, I love the bit where, I love the one where they're like, "Did you pull any pranks on set?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I threw water balloons at Christoph Waltz."

[laughs]

I'm like, "No, I didn't pull pranks. That's an insane question." [laughs]

No, we're adults and this is a-

Yeah.

I kept punching Mark Wahlberg in the dick.

I was doing fires, and like, "Yeah, did you s-"

Fucking idiot.

I was like, "We have a job to do. It's really hard to make a show." Or like-

You're like, "People are spending millions of dollars"

... "Like, do you have, what hijinks do you, like, what hijinks do you and Alex get into in the studio?" I'm like, "We record guitar parts." I'm like, "What?"

The hijinks is kind of trying to finish this shit so we can do it, like, do it for a job. It's not really, there's not really m-

Yeah.

Mm.

We work, like, it's really, we're working really hard to do these things. [laughs]

What's the prank? The, the prank is we work really hard. It's hilarious.

[laughs]

It's just too-

The prank is, is that, like, we work really hard, and then we go home and go to bed, and then, like, come back and, and do it again.

Mm-hmm.

I think, I think that's-

The prank is on me

... who, who is the OG prankster? Is it Clooney that made it his, like, thing?

Clooney, I think.

Yeah. Clooney, I think Clooney ruined it for all of you.

Yeah, I think they got so excited by Clooney doing these pranks, which I'm sure he did, like, three pranks early on in his career.

He did. [laughs]

And also, he's probably acting in these movies where they're shooting for, like, a year and it's Oceans and they all have, like, five scenes-

Mm-hmm

... over the course of a year. So they have tons of time in their trailer. Where it's like you're doing an indie movie in 20 days and you're, like, trying to do seven pages a day, and you're like, "I'm gonna just, I don't know, I'm gonna, like, you know, do these, I'm gonna put some b- some rocks in somebody's shoe or something." [laughs] It's like, "No, I can't do this."

[laughs]

[laughs]

[laughs]

I'm gonna light Margaret Qualley's shoes on fire.

Also, they've been asking me that question. I've had that question asked to me probably 10,000 times since I was 12 years old.

Mm-hmm.

And it's, I've never, I've never been on a set where somebody threw, did a prank. I've never-

[laughs]

It's like, I've never seen a prank.

It's usually a prank-free environment.

Yeah.

That's, you don't realize that your agents are s- writing that into your contracts beforehand. It's a prank-free... If, look, if he's gonna show up, there's no pranks.

[laughs]

We can't have him pranking.

There's no pranking. Yeah, yeah.

But it's, I mean, but it's because 99% of content being created and recorded now is like, we need something to play in the back of a taxi cab that Mario Lopez-

Totally

... introduces. And that's it.

Yeah

And we used to have TV shows where people would smoke cigarettes and drink whiskey and discuss real things-

Oh, I loved that

... for hours on end, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

And then listen to Gore Vidal over here.

[laughs]

I just, I-

Dick Cavett. Those Dick Cavett interviews.

Yeah, Cavett was... Cavett's a dick.

Yeah, Frank-

Sure

Literally

... Marlon Brando-

Hold up

... like smoking cigarettes and talking to the audience and it's so awesome.

I gotta say, though, I saw... Look, I saw a video, uh, on my reels that was served to me of Mario Lopez getting ready to go to something, and he had his shirt off. Dick Cavett didn't look like that with his shirt off.

Mm.

I just wanna point out the difference. I, it, it was a much better interview, but-

Oh, I... Dude, I lo- actually, I don't, I, I've never really listened to them, but I loved doing an interview with Mario Lopez because we just... Yeah, I talked about how I was gambling in, uh, New Orleans during the movie that I was making in New Orleans. This was years ago. And he got so excited, and we spent a 20-minute interview talking about gambling. And I remember my old publicist, not my, you know, my old publicist at the time being like, "You didn't speak about the movie once." I was like, "Wasn't it amazing?" [laughs]

[laughs]

Yeah, but I found out Mario's really good at blackjack. That was fun.

You know we can use none of this, right?

I know. Bad.

This is... So when you got... Are you guys... You did, did you open for Billie already, or is that coming up?

No, no, we opened for... You didn't come see us, huh, Chris?

Tough ticket.

We opened, we opened for, for, for, like, seven, six months, or some, seven months for Billie. And, uh, we did three shows at Madison Square Garden, which was literally my main goal of life.

Yeah.

When I was a little kid, I said to my dad, I'm like, "The, the thing I wanna do, this is, like, the one, the one thing I wanna do, I'm, one day I wanna play at Madison Square Garden." And then we got to do it three times, and I actually got to bring up my dad, who has been, you know, battling cancer for years and stuff, and had it h- he wasn't able to play music for a while, and he, but now he's doing so much better and he, he got to come on stage and play the song that I, like, wrote about his-

Whoa

... battling cancer.

Goddammit, now you're... N- bro, come on, now.

Whoa.

That, that's a- that's...

Isn't that amazing?

That is amazing.

So your, uh, hopefully your dad came out with the... And, and, and, and every- everyone's making noise, and he's like, "Well, you, not o- I was hoping for a headline, but we'll take opening," you know?

[laughs]

It's a, it's a start.

He's like, "Son-

"I do have cancer, but, you know"

... son, you're telling me this chick is giving you 30 minutes up here? That's it?" Like, that's, that's bad.

[laughs] No, dude, we got 45. We got 45.

Okay, 45. 45 is good.

Pretty good.

How many songs do you play in 45 minutes? What is that, like, 10?

Oh, what did we sneak in? We snuck in about 10. Yeah. It should be nine. I think we s- we pushed two together into a medley that we should've probably just played one of them. But, you know, we-

My question in those situations, when the, when the artist that is headlining is that popular and the fans are so crazy and, like, you know, run to the front, you know, and they're there-

Yeah, yeah

... do you feel like you retained a lot, or do you feel like they're there to see her, and you're sort of the appetizer?

Oh, totally. Uh, we, when we opened for... When we were, we were kids, we did one show opening for Justin Bieber, and it was as if we were, like, getting in the way of them seeing Justin Bieber. Like, they were, like, on their phones.

[laughs] Sure, yeah.

Yeah.

A bunch of teenage girls on their phones. But honestly, not just saying this, like, Billie's fans are so excited that... First of all, our fanbases overlap a lot, and the people, they, they're such big fans of hers that they know who the opening act is, so they learn all the music beforehand. And they get there hours before.

Damn.

So we were playing to, like, 95% packed houses, when usually-

So it's like the opposite, basically. They, like, love her so much that they do the, they wanna know who's-

Yes.

Well, that sounds like a great, healthy environment. Th- w- I'm assuming it was not the same with Cage the Elephant opening for Oasis when you saw them.

[laughs]

Was it 95%?

It was pro- yeah, I think it was... I, I, I don't know, but it seemed like it was maybe less than that for that. But, but-

[laughs]

... but Cage the Elephant killed, though. They fucking killed.

Okay.

A little less than that.

Sure, sure.

A little less than that.

Yeah, they killed.

That's great. I mean, I just... So how is it gonna feel, you think, to go back and do your own shows that... And no shots at you, these are a little smaller, you know what I mean?

Oh, hell yeah, yeah. I mean, well, the, the amazing thing about doing, [laughs] doing your own, doing our shows is that, uh, it's, the only tough part about opening is that Billie's a, moving around, running around pop star, so she's doing a show in the round.

Mm.

Um, and as a band, that was a little bit hard because, you know, we have, like, microphones that are planted, and we'd have to switch instruments and go back and forth.

Sure.

I am excited about now going back to playing shows that aren't in the round.

[laughs]

But besides that-

You're like, "I'm, I'm really excited to face the audience the whole time"

[laughs]

"It's gonna be sick. It's gonna be sick."

"I got an idea. They, they can see me."

Or not have comments where people would be like, "Yeah, I saw Alex this whole show. I didn't see you," or, "I saw you and just Alex."

Do we do any-

But, yeah, we tried to switch

... did, did she come out and sing with you? Did you go out and sing? Did we do the classic crossover, or is the show-

No, but we had a song come out right before we went on tour called Soft Kissing Hour that she produced and sang on.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, okay.

And, and-

It's a nice song

... oh, thank you. And, and so that ended up being, like, the, kind of the crossover moment where we'd also get to thank her for, you know, being on tour and that kind of thing.

I see what you're saying.

But, um-

Sure, sure, sure

... yeah, it was a really, really incredible experience with those audiences, which you'd think, yeah, you'd think it would be this thing where they'd be, like, bored, but it really, they were really passionate.

Times have just changed, man. People are fucking... Any time I go to a, a show like that of that size, I'm always, like, they're, the audience, even if they have their phones out, they're rapt.

Oh, yeah.

Like, they are fucking, like, they are locked in in a way that, like, I, I don't think that exists. I don't know. I don't feel like it was like that 10 years ago. I think there's a certain level, especially of, like, the pop female artist, that just inspires this dedication that is, like, absolute. Yeah, it's just, it's-

Rabid, rabid fandom

... it's different than anything I've ever seen.

Yeah.

And I don't have the capacity to be part of it.

Yeah, and, like, they know, you know, like, we'd play a few shows and suddenly, and we'd be playing stuff that was different than was on our record, and suddenly the audience would sing it how we were singing it live, 'cause they're all, like, watching videos of the show or, like-

Oh, Jesus Christ

... or, I don't know, maybe they, they're going to multiple shows. They're, like, deadheads, but they're, like, going-

Yeah, yeah

... to, uh, these pop shows so-

I mean, it could be all three, dude, honestly.

Yeah.

It c- it could be all of it. It could be all of it.

Yeah.

That's crazy. That's crazy.

That's beautiful. Okay.

Yeah.

Well-

All right, bro. Pleasure

... Nat, thank you for taking the time to chat with us.

Charlie.

[laughs]

Sorry, yeah, this, sorry, this took the... I feel like we, this took a long time to schedule, but I'm glad we made it happen, on both sides.

Oh, my God.

It was like-

You guys are so... I-

... we had a conflict, you had a conflict

... yeah, yeah. No, I think it was mostly you. Just kidding. No.

[laughs]

[laughs]

Um, no, I really, really, really love your guys' podcast, so it was ex- I'm excited I got to be on it.

Oh, man, thank you f- thank you for that, and good luck in the studio. Hope you guys get this thing done, and we'll, the album comes out in January?

January 16th, yeah.

Okay. All right, we got a goal. We're, we're, we're hitting, we're hitting.

Tell your bro we say happy birthday.

Yeah, tell your bro happy birthday.

Okay.

We'll see you soon, man. Have a good one, all right?

All right, talk soon.

Thanks again.

Bye. See you guys. You smell like you've been sleeping in my clothes under the sheets. Dropped off with a suitcase and bars on your teeth.

Now at Bakers, your points go even further. Use them your way to take dollars off groceries at checkout or save at the pump. Same points, more choices. And with low prices on fresh, quality food, plus digital and personalized offers tailored to how you shop, it all adds up to more ways to save. Because we know every dollar matters. That's why we're committed to making every shopping trip work harder for you. Bakers, fresh for everyone.